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Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
Freedom comes with a certain amount of risk. Freedom of speech means people can say awful things, freedom of religion allows people to believe in the Devil, Freedom of press means stuff like 50 Shades of Gray is around.

I would rather have my rights.
10-26-2016 04:15 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 03:48 PM)john01992 Wrote:  1. so you are arguing any law that isn't 100% effective is useless? so if there is a law against murder and people are murdered, are you suggesting we should repeal laws making murder illegal?

The old, let me completely misrepresent what you say so that i can argue with that instead ploy.

No. He's suggesting that you enforce laws against murder rather than make it a requirement to register before murdering someone, and then trying to prosecute them for failing to register their murder. If you're already committing murder, do you think they give a rats ass about the 'registration' crime?

Quote:2. Yet the guns are flowing INTO states like NY, CT, and MA.

That's not necessarily true. 50%+ stay within those tough states, but cross between them. ONE reason is that once a gun is used in a crime in one state, they'll frequently move it across state lines to avoid detection. Not as true as it used to be perhaps, but still mostly true and was true for decades.

Quote:3. Again go back to #1

4. again go back to #1

So why make laws at all? The purpose of laws is to stop, not create criminals. Look for ways to make laws against criminals more effective... and not ways to make laws against NON criminals in the hopes that this somehow trickles down to people that already don't follow such obvious laws as 'don't kill people'. It's not like guns are computers. You can make one from things at the home depot in about 20 minutes and $20. Said differently... The laws against murder are let's say 70% effective in stopping murders. Laws against unregistered guns might be 99% effective in registering guns, but perhaps only 1% effective in stopping murders... since criminals won't participate anyway. I think you can do far more than that by making laws against murder more effective. An example given here (not a good one imo, but already mentioned) might be to make it impossible to take blame for a murder for your own reasons, and then recant (especially knowing that once you confessed, they stopped expending all the resources they might have) and use that to create doubt.

Quote:You keep avoiding the law. of course criminals don't obey the laws. but the fact remains that it is the availability of legal ways to purchase guns that ends up being the culprit in criminals becoming in possession of guns. hence the reason europe doesn't have these ridiculous rates.

That's one explanation. another could be that they weren't an essentially undiscovered country during the proliferation of the handgun, that they don't have a VERY long and mostly unsecured border with a country that is still quite dangerous, that their attitudes towards drugs which often are associated with this violence is very different, or numerous other differences.

They also don't have the inviolate right in their constitution to own them... mostly since being occupied by invading forces that 'someone else' had to help liberate them from.... that's perhaps the biggest difference. Talk about avoiding the law.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2016 04:22 PM by Hambone10.)
10-26-2016 04:18 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:18 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 03:48 PM)john01992 Wrote:  1. so you are arguing any law that isn't 100% effective is useless? so if there is a law against murder and people are murdered, are you suggesting we should repeal laws making murder illegal?

The old, let me completely misrepresent what you say so that i can argue with that instead ploy.

No. He's suggesting that you enforce laws against murder rather than make it a requirement to register before murdering someone, and then trying to prosecute them for failing to register their murder. If you're already committing murder, do you think they give a rats ass about the 'registration' crime?

Quote:2. Yet the guns are flowing INTO states like NY, CT, and MA.

That's not necessarily true. 50%+ stay within those tough states, but cross between them. ONE reason is that once a gun is used in a crime in one state, they'll frequently move it across state lines to avoid detection. Not as true as it used to be perhaps, but still mostly true and was true for decades.

Quote:3. Again go back to #1

4. again go back to #1

So why make laws at all? The purpose of laws is to stop, not create criminals. Look for ways to make laws against criminals more effective... and not ways to make laws against NON criminals in the hopes that this somehow trickles down to people that already don't follow such obvious laws as 'don't kill people'. It's not like guns are computers. You can make one from things at the home depot in about 20 minutes and $20. Said differently... The laws against murder are let's say 70% effective in stopping murders. Laws against unregistered guns might be 99% effective in registering guns, but perhaps only 1% effective in stopping murders... since criminals won't participate anyway. I think you can do far more than that by making laws against murder more effective. An example given here (not a good one imo, but already mentioned) might be to make it impossible to take blame for a murder for your own reasons, and then recant (especially knowing that once you confessed, they stopped expending all the resources they might have) and use that to create doubt.

Quote:You keep avoiding the law. of course criminals don't obey the laws. but the fact remains that it is the availability of legal ways to purchase guns that ends up being the culprit in criminals becoming in possession of guns. hence the reason europe doesn't have these ridiculous rates.

That's one explanation. another could be that they weren't an essentially undiscovered country during the proliferation of the handgun, that they don't have a VERY long and mostly unsecured border with a country that is still quite dangerous, that their attitudes towards drugs which often are associated with this violence is very different, or numerous other differences.

They also don't have the inviolate right in their constitution to own them... mostly since being occupied by invading forces that 'someone else' had to help liberate them from.... that's perhaps the biggest difference. Talk about avoiding the law.

I love how the first part you say I am misrepresenting him with the murder analogy then elsewhere in your post say "why make laws at all?"
10-26-2016 04:25 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
and are you really going down the "they can make guns at home" talking point?
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2016 04:26 PM by john01992.)
10-26-2016 04:26 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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Post: #25
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
John, seriously how many threads have you delved into on this topic over the last six months?

Do the discussion points change? Are you changing anybody's mind? Is your point just to chew on ankles?
10-26-2016 04:27 PM
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Pyrizzo Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  John, seriously how many threads have you delved into on this topic over the last six months?

Do the discussion points change? Are you changing anybody's mind? Is your point just to chew on ankles?

It's cankles. Chew on cankles.
10-26-2016 04:32 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 03:03 PM)john01992 Wrote:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/25/rep...tates.html

A total of 74 percent of the guns were originally purchased outside of New York. Handguns made up three-quarters of all the guns used in crimes, and 86 percent of those handguns were bought in another state.

Of the 14,588 traced weapons recovered in the Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Capital region and Lower Hudson Valley metropolitan areas, 42 percent, or 6,196, originated in New York, followed by 7 percent each in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Those are all states with relatively tight gun regulations and lower rates of gun ownership.

What I REALLY want to know is what happened to the perps caught with THESE guns. How long were their sentences? If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is) they probably all got a year or less if they didn't kill anyone. Give me THAT STAT Johnny, because that's the one that REALLY f'n matters. These leftist states refuse to enforce the laws they ALREADY have.

isn't the whole point of the issue in chicago and how come the situation there is so different than LA/NYC come down to two major differences between that city and LA/NYC.

1. Chicago is in a region with significantly less gun control whereas Cali and New York are known for having amongst the toughest policies on guns.

2. Chicago doesn't have the mandatory gun laws as LA/NYC that their police commish complains about.

I can't tell if you are uninformed that the rallying cry for chicago is that they should model them selves on a gun control law championed by liberals or advocating on behalf of that measure because you support them.

seeing as you alluded to "chicago and NYC are the same" I'm going with uninformed. the last time this forum had a gun control dicussion was when the Chicago commish pointed out the murder rate is as bad as it is because they lack that specific law in NYC/LA. so are you not paying attention?
10-26-2016 04:34 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  John, seriously how many threads have you delved into on this topic over the last six months?

Do the discussion points change? Are you changing anybody's mind? Is your point just to chew on ankles?

three.

one on chicago and LA/NYC

a second on the international smuggling myth

this one on the "where guns come from" topic.
10-26-2016 04:35 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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Post: #29
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
Has John started talking about suicide yet? Because he always gets there in these just a matter time. It's like he has a script he follows. Over and over and over
10-26-2016 04:35 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
Well crap, if taking guns off the street is all it takes to create Liberal Utopia in New York, I can do it in an afternoon.

Get all police dispatch on the radio: “Calling all cars, return to base to drop off your weapons, then resume patrols.” There you go – hundreds of guns off the streets, easy as pie.

Why didn’t anybody think of this before?
10-26-2016 04:36 PM
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Pyrizzo Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 03:03 PM)john01992 Wrote:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/25/rep...tates.html

A total of 74 percent of the guns were originally purchased outside of New York. Handguns made up three-quarters of all the guns used in crimes, and 86 percent of those handguns were bought in another state.

Of the 14,588 traced weapons recovered in the Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Capital region and Lower Hudson Valley metropolitan areas, 42 percent, or 6,196, originated in New York, followed by 7 percent each in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Those are all states with relatively tight gun regulations and lower rates of gun ownership.

What I REALLY want to know is what happened to the perps caught with THESE guns. How long were their sentences? If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is) they probably all got a year or less if they didn't kill anyone. Give me THAT STAT Johnny, because that's the one that REALLY f'n matters. These leftist states refuse to enforce the laws they ALREADY have.

isn't the whole point of the issue in chicago and how come the situation there is so different than LA/NYC come down to two major differences between that city and LA/NYC.

1. Chicago is in a region with significantly less gun control whereas Cali and New York are known for having amongst the toughest policies on guns.

2. Chicago doesn't have the mandatory gun laws as LA/NYC that their police commish complains about.

I can't tell if you are uninformed that the rallying cry for chicago is that they should model them selves on a gun control law championed by liberals or advocating on behalf of that measure because you support them.

seeing as you alluded to "chicago and NYC are the same" I'm going with uninformed. the last time this forum had a gun control dicussion was when the Chicago commish pointed out the murder rate is as bad as it is because they lack that specific law in NYC/LA. so are you not paying attention?

I didn't say they were the same, I said "IF", and only one way to find out is to see the time served for these gun crimes.

I want to see the stats on how much time was sentenced for these crimes. You won't answer that or care to find out. You did nothing but avoid addressing it. Because you already know the answer. And I know that because you feel they should be out of prison and f'n voting.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2016 04:39 PM by Pyrizzo.)
10-26-2016 04:38 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:35 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Has John started talking about suicide yet? Because he always gets there in these just a matter time. It's like he has a script he follows. Over and over and over

Leave him alone. He's using a teleprompter.
10-26-2016 04:42 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:25 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I love how the first part you say I am misrepresenting him with the murder analogy then elsewhere in your post say "why make laws at all?"

I love how how you can't tell the difference between me asking a rhetorical question, and you suggesting a re-interpetation of what someone else said.

I didn't say YOU suggested we not make laws at all, did I? It's the misrepresentation of someone else's point in order to refute it that's a problem, John. I didn't misrepresent your point.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2016 04:48 PM by Hambone10.)
10-26-2016 04:43 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:42 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:35 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Has John started talking about suicide yet? Because he always gets there in these just a matter time. It's like he has a script he follows. Over and over and over

Leave him alone. He's using a teleprompter.

03-lmfao

I swear he has a quota of these threads each month.
10-26-2016 04:45 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:26 PM)john01992 Wrote:  and are you really going down the "they can make guns at home" talking point?

Are you really ignoring the bulk of what I said (likely because you can't refute any of it) to latch on to two meaningless (in the grand scheme) asides?

That's an aside, not a talking point. Criminals want to commit crimes. Take away one way to do it and they will find another. An IED or pipe bomb or fertilizer bomb or pressure cooker or propane tank is essentially a terrorists reaction to a ban on bomb parts.
10-26-2016 04:47 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:38 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 03:03 PM)john01992 Wrote:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/25/rep...tates.html

A total of 74 percent of the guns were originally purchased outside of New York. Handguns made up three-quarters of all the guns used in crimes, and 86 percent of those handguns were bought in another state.

Of the 14,588 traced weapons recovered in the Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Capital region and Lower Hudson Valley metropolitan areas, 42 percent, or 6,196, originated in New York, followed by 7 percent each in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Those are all states with relatively tight gun regulations and lower rates of gun ownership.

What I REALLY want to know is what happened to the perps caught with THESE guns. How long were their sentences? If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is) they probably all got a year or less if they didn't kill anyone. Give me THAT STAT Johnny, because that's the one that REALLY f'n matters. These leftist states refuse to enforce the laws they ALREADY have.

isn't the whole point of the issue in chicago and how come the situation there is so different than LA/NYC come down to two major differences between that city and LA/NYC.

1. Chicago is in a region with significantly less gun control whereas Cali and New York are known for having amongst the toughest policies on guns.

2. Chicago doesn't have the mandatory gun laws as LA/NYC that their police commish complains about.

I can't tell if you are uninformed that the rallying cry for chicago is that they should model them selves on a gun control law championed by liberals or advocating on behalf of that measure because you support them.

seeing as you alluded to "chicago and NYC are the same" I'm going with uninformed. the last time this forum had a gun control dicussion was when the Chicago commish pointed out the murder rate is as bad as it is because they lack that specific law in NYC/LA. so are you not paying attention?

I didn't say they were the same, I said "IF", and only one way to find out is to see the time served for these gun crimes.

I want to see the stats on how much time was sentenced for these crimes. You won't answer that or care to find out. You did nothing but avoid addressing it. Because you already know the answer. And I know that because you feel they should be out of prison and f'n voting.

You said:

If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is)

so gimme a freaking break. you can't say you approached that with much skepticism. you lie as badly as trump saying "no one respects women more than me"

don't accuse me of not caring to find out for something you are too lazy to find out yourself.
10-26-2016 04:48 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:43 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:25 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I love how the first part you say I am misrepresenting him with the murder analogy then elsewhere in your post say "why make laws at all?"

I love how how you can't tell the difference between me asking a rhetorical question, and you suggesting a re-interpetation of what someone else said.

I didn't say YOU suggested we not make laws at all, did I?

either way the talking point we are discussing is dumb. criminals don't follow the law. that is nothing new. that isn't an excuse to say it should no longer be a law.
10-26-2016 04:49 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:48 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:38 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 03:03 PM)john01992 Wrote:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/25/rep...tates.html

A total of 74 percent of the guns were originally purchased outside of New York. Handguns made up three-quarters of all the guns used in crimes, and 86 percent of those handguns were bought in another state.

Of the 14,588 traced weapons recovered in the Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Capital region and Lower Hudson Valley metropolitan areas, 42 percent, or 6,196, originated in New York, followed by 7 percent each in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Those are all states with relatively tight gun regulations and lower rates of gun ownership.

What I REALLY want to know is what happened to the perps caught with THESE guns. How long were their sentences? If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is) they probably all got a year or less if they didn't kill anyone. Give me THAT STAT Johnny, because that's the one that REALLY f'n matters. These leftist states refuse to enforce the laws they ALREADY have.

isn't the whole point of the issue in chicago and how come the situation there is so different than LA/NYC come down to two major differences between that city and LA/NYC.

1. Chicago is in a region with significantly less gun control whereas Cali and New York are known for having amongst the toughest policies on guns.

2. Chicago doesn't have the mandatory gun laws as LA/NYC that their police commish complains about.

I can't tell if you are uninformed that the rallying cry for chicago is that they should model them selves on a gun control law championed by liberals or advocating on behalf of that measure because you support them.

seeing as you alluded to "chicago and NYC are the same" I'm going with uninformed. the last time this forum had a gun control dicussion was when the Chicago commish pointed out the murder rate is as bad as it is because they lack that specific law in NYC/LA. so are you not paying attention?

I didn't say they were the same, I said "IF", and only one way to find out is to see the time served for these gun crimes.

I want to see the stats on how much time was sentenced for these crimes. You won't answer that or care to find out. You did nothing but avoid addressing it. Because you already know the answer. And I know that because you feel they should be out of prison and f'n voting.

You said:

If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is)

so gimme a freaking break. you can't say you approached that with much skepticism. you lie as badly as trump saying "no one respects women more than me"

don't accuse me of not caring to find out for something you are too lazy to find out yourself.

Here it comes. We already know they don't dole out sufficient sentences for gun crimes. I don't need to find that out for myself, YOU just need to admit it.

AGAIN. You don't give a rats ass how much time these perps serve for these gun crimes, you just want MORE gun control. That won't work if you refuse to enforce the existing laws. And like I said, why should you care? Since you're so adamant to get these perps out to vote.
10-26-2016 04:50 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:26 PM)john01992 Wrote:  and are you really going down the "they can make guns at home" talking point?

Are you really ignoring the bulk of what I said (likely because you can't refute any of it) to latch on to two meaningless (in the grand scheme) asides?

That's an aside, not a talking point. Criminals want to commit crimes. Take away one way to do it and they will find another. An IED or pipe bomb or fertilizer bomb or pressure cooker or propane tank is essentially a terrorists reaction to a ban on bomb parts.

yeah, and that's a terrorism issue. let's look at the big picture and not argue over the trivial irrelevant BS like homemade pipe rifles on wood and ducktape. I do not want a repeat of going from rape allegations to armchairs on an airplane to smoking ban implementation.
10-26-2016 04:51 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Report: Most guns used in NY crimes bought in other states
(10-26-2016 04:50 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:48 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:38 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(10-26-2016 04:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  What I REALLY want to know is what happened to the perps caught with THESE guns. How long were their sentences? If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is) they probably all got a year or less if they didn't kill anyone. Give me THAT STAT Johnny, because that's the one that REALLY f'n matters. These leftist states refuse to enforce the laws they ALREADY have.

isn't the whole point of the issue in chicago and how come the situation there is so different than LA/NYC come down to two major differences between that city and LA/NYC.

1. Chicago is in a region with significantly less gun control whereas Cali and New York are known for having amongst the toughest policies on guns.

2. Chicago doesn't have the mandatory gun laws as LA/NYC that their police commish complains about.

I can't tell if you are uninformed that the rallying cry for chicago is that they should model them selves on a gun control law championed by liberals or advocating on behalf of that measure because you support them.

seeing as you alluded to "chicago and NYC are the same" I'm going with uninformed. the last time this forum had a gun control dicussion was when the Chicago commish pointed out the murder rate is as bad as it is because they lack that specific law in NYC/LA. so are you not paying attention?

I didn't say they were the same, I said "IF", and only one way to find out is to see the time served for these gun crimes.

I want to see the stats on how much time was sentenced for these crimes. You won't answer that or care to find out. You did nothing but avoid addressing it. Because you already know the answer. And I know that because you feel they should be out of prison and f'n voting.

You said:

If it's anything like Chicago (and it likely is)

so gimme a freaking break. you can't say you approached that with much skepticism. you lie as badly as trump saying "no one respects women more than me"

don't accuse me of not caring to find out for something you are too lazy to find out yourself.

Here it comes. We already know they don't dole out sufficient sentences for gun crimes. I don't need to find that out for myself, YOU just need to admit it.

AGAIN. You don't give a rats ass how much time these perps serve for these gun crimes, you just want MORE gun control. That won't work if you refuse to enforce the existing laws. And like I said, why should you care? Since you're so adamant to get these perps out to vote.

can you prove they don't dole out sentences. I literally haven't heard that. what I have heard is chicago complains their sentencing for guns isn't as strict as NYC.

I want less murders and less people using guns for bad things. nothing more nothing less.
10-26-2016 04:52 PM
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