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Difference a conference makes
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jhruzek Offline
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Post: #1
Difference a conference makes
Anyone wondering if we should really try to change conferences, and or even keep football, should read this article about Rutgers and the Big Ten.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/12/sports...pe=article
10-16-2016 09:06 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 09:06 AM)jhruzek Wrote:  Anyone wondering if we should really try to change conferences, and or even keep football, should read this article about Rutgers and the Big Ten.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/12/sports...pe=article

Thank goodness this article indicates that TV coverage is more important than on the field results and butts in seats. If we are ever to appeal to a P5 conference, it will have to be one without a Texas presence.
10-16-2016 10:02 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
I've said this 100 times. Pac12, B1G and SEC are all possibilities for us. Big12 doesn't need us and the SEC only needs us for a second visit into Texas and a 'week off' for the top 10 teams without killing the SOS/RPI.

UH to Big12 is purely political and recruits the same guys, thus they weaken the top 10, even if they join them in the top 10.
10-16-2016 11:03 AM
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OldOwl Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
I always thought the ACC is a better conf for us instead of the Big 12. Bringing the Houston market into the ACC would be a real coup and our academics would of coarse be on par with other universities in the ACC.
(10-16-2016 11:03 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I've said this 100 times. Pac12, B1G and SEC are all possibilities for us. Big12 doesn't need us and the SEC only needs us for a second visit into Texas and a 'week off' for the top 10 teams without killing the SOS/RPI.

UH to Big12 is purely political and recruits the same guys, thus they weaken the top 10, even if they join them in the top 10.
10-16-2016 11:22 AM
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ETx Owl Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 11:03 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I've said this 100 times. Pac12, B1G and SEC are all possibilities for us. Big12 doesn't need us and the SEC only needs us for a second visit into Texas and a 'week off' for the top 10 teams without killing the SOS/RPI.

UH to Big12 is purely political and recruits the same guys, thus they weaken the top 10, even if they join them in the top 10.

Rice to SEC would slam the door on Big12. Basically home game for LSU, Aggies and Arky. Wests answer to Easts Vandy. Add Clemson to easy East, and you got almost all the south sewed up. Would hold better qualified athletes from going to Stanford Vandy Tulane SMU Tulsa--we would get first pick.
Great Hoops and Baseball

Too bad, I do not think Rice folks would want to go there except for the few here and other supporters.
10-16-2016 12:18 PM
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texowl2 Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 12:18 PM)ETx Owl Wrote:  
(10-16-2016 11:03 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I've said this 100 times. Pac12, B1G and SEC are all possibilities for us. Big12 doesn't need us and the SEC only needs us for a second visit into Texas and a 'week off' for the top 10 teams without killing the SOS/RPI.

UH to Big12 is purely political and recruits the same guys, thus they weaken the top 10, even if they join them in the top 10.

Rice to SEC would slam the door on Big12. Basically home game for LSU, Aggies and Arky. Wests answer to Easts Vandy. Add Clemson to easy East, and you got almost all the south sewed up. Would hold better qualified athletes from going to Stanford Vandy Tulane SMU Tulsa--we would get first pick.
Great Hoops and Baseball

Too bad, I do not think Rice folks would want to go there except for the few here and other supporters.

Any "Rice folks" that, if offered, don't agree to that should be hung, drawn, and quartered in front of Lovett Hall.
10-16-2016 01:08 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 01:08 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(10-16-2016 12:18 PM)ETx Owl Wrote:  
(10-16-2016 11:03 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I've said this 100 times. Pac12, B1G and SEC are all possibilities for us. Big12 doesn't need us and the SEC only needs us for a second visit into Texas and a 'week off' for the top 10 teams without killing the SOS/RPI.

UH to Big12 is purely political and recruits the same guys, thus they weaken the top 10, even if they join them in the top 10.

Rice to SEC would slam the door on Big12. Basically home game for LSU, Aggies and Arky. Wests answer to Easts Vandy. Add Clemson to easy East, and you got almost all the south sewed up. Would hold better qualified athletes from going to Stanford Vandy Tulane SMU Tulsa--we would get first pick.
Great Hoops and Baseball

Too bad, I do not think Rice folks would want to go there except for the few here and other supporters.

Any "Rice folks" that, if offered, don't agree to that should be hung, drawn, and quartered in front of Lovett Hall.

what do you have against Lovett Hall?

I think any move would help, but I don't think MAC, AAC, or MWC help very much, and I don't see why the SEC would want us, as they already have a presence in Texas.
10-16-2016 01:11 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 11:03 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I've said this 100 times. Pac12, B1G and SEC are all possibilities for us. Big12 doesn't need us and the SEC only needs us for a second visit into Texas and a 'week off' for the top 10 teams without killing the SOS/RPI.
UH to Big12 is purely political and recruits the same guys, thus they weaken the top 10, even if they join them in the top 10.

Academics probably help us more with SEC than anyone else. There is a big rivalry with the B1G, at least from their point of view. They're probably a bit ahead of the B1G in football and baseball, and drawn even with them in other sports, but B1G still boasts of a big lead academically. SEC has 4 AAU members (Florida, Vandy, aTm, Mizzou) and four that are generally rated higher than a number of AAU members (Bama, Auburn, Georgia, Tennessee). Adding Rice would give them a 5th AAU member, and potentially another vote to help pull the other 4 in. With 9 AAU members, they would narrow the academic gap considerably, and could improve even more with some regional research initiatives. Kentucky, LSU, Arkansas, South Carolina, Ole Miss, and Miss State are probably not AAU candidates for now, although Arkansas actually has a very impressive corporate research portfolio (thanks, Waltons and Tysons).

Pac-12, B1G, and ACC don't need our academics. XII doesn't care about academics.
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2016 01:59 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-16-2016 01:59 PM
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Jonathan Sadow Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 10:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-16-2016 09:06 AM)jhruzek Wrote:  Anyone wondering if we should really try to change conferences, and or even keep football, should read this article about Rutgers and the Big Ten.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/12/sports...pe=article

Thank goodness this article indicates that TV coverage is more important than on the field results and butts in seats. If we are ever to appeal to a P5 conference, it will have to be one without a Texas presence.

This has been fairly obvious for the last ten years or so. If you study the conference membership changes since then, not just for the Power 5 but all FBS conferences, you'll see that TV markets have been the biggest driver, not the quality of the football program (if it were, Boise State would be in a P5 conference by now).

What does this mean for Rice? Let's look at the hierarchy of P5 conferences. It's not hard to figure out when you look at how schools have been voting with their feet. At the top are the SEC, Big Ten, and Pac-12. They've been adding members over the years and not losing anyone. Below them are the ACC and Big 12. Each has lost members to other conferences and backfilled with non-P5 schools. I'd put the ACC above the Big XII, because the ACC has gained more than it's lost (and especially after the Big XII's announcement about no expansion - the stench of death is starting to emanate from there...). For Rice, presently things look like this for getting into each conference:

Big Ten - no chance; the contiguity rule keeps Rice out
SEC - the conference already has a significant presence in Texas, and there would be little to be gained by adding Rice
Pac-12 - Rice would add to the AAU top-heavy profile of the conference and add the Houston TV market, but geographically it's quite a stretch
ACC - similar to the Pac-12, with the ACC being more private-school friendly
Big XII - obvious geographical continuity, but TV markets are already covered, and Rice's academic quality isn't as much a factor to conference that's shown itself willing to slum academically, plus there's that stench....

What do I think would be the most likely place Rice could land? I think I-45 Owl came up with this idea first:...

(10-16-2016 11:22 AM)OldOwl Wrote:  I always thought the ACC is a better conf for us instead of the Big 12. Bringing the Houston market into the ACC would be a real coup and our academics would of coarse be on par with other universities in the ACC.

I suspect that, in the future, the SEC and maybe the Big Ten are going to put pressure on the ACC, and it'll be needing more members. Rice would be a good fit for the reasons OldOwl states. Other possibilities mainly depend on whether Texas decides to blow up the Big XII and leave. Rice could backfill Big XII vacancies, as there would now be a serious TV coverage hole in the conference (although my guess would be Houston gets selected due to the remaining conference members apathy toward academic quality). Another possibility is that UT will head west and join the Pac-12; Rice might very well come with them. If you look at the map, right now the Pac-12 has all of the schools west of the Rockies that it feels are in its academic class; the next-closest place to the conference with both good academic schools and TV sets is Texas, and the top two academic schools in the state are Rice and Texas.

Having said all of that, I'd say that the odds of any movement of Rice into a P5 conference in the next decade are less than 50-50. The most likely outcome over that period is continued membership in Conference USA or movement to another Group of 5 conference such as the Mountain West or American Athletic Conferences.
10-18-2016 06:48 PM
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mrbig Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-18-2016 06:48 PM)Jonathan Sadow Wrote:  Another possibility is that UT will head west and join the Pac-12; Rice might very well come with them. If you look at the map, right now the Pac-12 has all of the schools west of the Rockies that it feels are in its academic class; the next-closest place to the conference with both good academic schools and TV sets is Texas, and the top two academic schools in the state are Rice and Texas.

This has been my dream for a while now. And if the ultimate expectation is that the PAC will expand to 16 teams, they would be looking to add 4. UT (assuming the Big XII collapses) is the most obvious choice (good academics, elite athletics). After that, things are less clear. That is certainly a long-term angle that I think Rice should be working.
10-18-2016 09:40 PM
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texowl2 Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
all great, but is academics more important the US $. Sadly not......
10-18-2016 11:15 PM
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mrbig Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-18-2016 11:15 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  all great, but is academics more important the US $. Sadly not......

Being in Houston is important. It will forever give Rice some semblance of upside. Academics can be a tie-breaker if Rice is close to even on some of the other items (eyeballs, butts-in-seats, etc.).
10-18-2016 11:39 PM
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HawaiiOwl Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-18-2016 11:39 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:15 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  all great, but is academics more important the US $. Sadly not......

Being in Houston is important. It will forever give Rice some semblance of upside. Academics can be a tie-breaker if Rice is close to even on some of the other items (eyeballs, butts-in-seats, etc.).

good luck w that
10-19-2016 01:20 AM
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exowlswimmer Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-19-2016 01:20 AM)HawaiiOwl Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:39 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:15 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  all great, but is academics more important the US $. Sadly not......

Being in Houston is important. It will forever give Rice some semblance of upside. Academics can be a tie-breaker if Rice is close to even on some of the other items (eyeballs, butts-in-seats, etc.).

good luck w that
Hawaii Owl,
A long view would show that a PAC-14 expansion now
(Hawaii and Rice) prior to the big12 implosion sets up the PAC for picking up Texas after the big12 disbands. Hawaii gives the PAC teams a 13th game in years that they travel to the islands. Rice enhances the academic pedigree while offering a Texas showcase game for recruits with (at least initially) little downside of an embarrassing blowout by Rice. The two schools expand the PAC-12 footprint and at about 820 miles to the Pacific (SW towards Mazatlan) Rice is not as far from the Pacific ocean as some critics might think.

Go West young man, there are plenty of academic schools in the eastern conferences, provide those out west an academically rigorous option outside of the NE!
10-19-2016 05:52 AM
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exowlswimmer Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-19-2016 01:20 AM)HawaiiOwl Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:39 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:15 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  all great, but is academics more important the US $. Sadly not......

Being in Houston is important. It will forever give Rice some semblance of upside. Academics can be a tie-breaker if Rice is close to even on some of the other items (eyeballs, butts-in-seats, etc.).

good luck w that
Hawaii Owl,
A long view would show that a PAC-14 expansion now
(Hawaii and Rice) prior to the big12 implosion sets up the PAC for picking up Texas after the big12 disbands. Hawaii gives the PAC teams a 13th game in years that they travel to the islands. Rice enhances the academic pedigree while offering a Texas showcase game for recruits with (at least initially) little downside of an embarrassing blowout by Rice. The two schools expand the PAC-12 footprint and at about 820 miles to the Pacific (SW towards Mazatlan) Rice is not as far from the Pacific ocean as some critics might think.

Go West young man, there are plenty of academic schools in the eastern conferences, provide those out west an academically rigorous option outside of the NE!
10-19-2016 05:54 AM
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westsidewolf1989 Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
Hawaii is not gonna be on the Pac 12's short list, IMO. Academics are 25 spots worse than any other school in Pac 12 and obviously their athletics are not stellar.
10-19-2016 07:58 AM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Difference a conference makes
(10-16-2016 10:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Big Ten - no chance; the contiguity rule keeps Rice out
SEC - the conference already has a significant presence in Texas, and there would be little to be gained by adding Rice
Pac-12 - Rice would add to the AAU top-heavy profile of the conference and add the Houston TV market, but geographically it's quite a stretch
ACC - similar to the Pac-12, with the ACC being more private-school friendly

I actually rate the ACC as the only "no chance" option among the P5. I don't think we make their 12 school long list (like we do with the Big12).

I do like both the Pac and SEC options (prefer Pac of the two and I feel it's more likely at this point).

I do want to throw my B1G "continuity rule" solution out there again:
Add Kansas, Oklahoma, Rice, and Either Texas or Tulane to go to 18.

Rice might well be preferable to UT (the orange one) for a couple of reasons, including OU looking to split from that relationship at least on a conference affiliation level.
10-19-2016 08:04 AM
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GoodOwl Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-18-2016 11:39 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:15 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  all great, but is academics more important the US $. Sadly not......

Being in Houston is important. It will forever give Rice some semblance of upside. Academics can be a tie-breaker if Rice is close to even on some of the other items (eyeballs, butts-in-seats, etc.).

IMO, being located in Houston (something we cannot change) is among Rice's biggest drawbacks. Explanation: If Rice were located near West Coast, I think we'd be in Pac12. If on East Coast, we'd have a number of P5 conferences competing for us. Houston, while a big city, is conference no-man's land. It is probably much harder for Texas natives and residents to see and understand this as those on the coasts see it most clearly.

Edit: best fit for us geographically in P5 is definitely SEC West. Best "bring Texas market" fit is ACC or BiG.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2016 08:23 AM by GoodOwl.)
10-19-2016 08:22 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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RE: Difference a conference makes
(10-19-2016 08:04 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  
(10-16-2016 10:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Big Ten - no chance; the contiguity rule keeps Rice out
SEC - the conference already has a significant presence in Texas, and there would be little to be gained by adding Rice
Pac-12 - Rice would add to the AAU top-heavy profile of the conference and add the Houston TV market, but geographically it's quite a stretch
ACC - similar to the Pac-12, with the ACC being more private-school friendly

I actually rate the ACC as the only "no chance" option among the P5. I don't think we make their 12 school long list (like we do with the Big12).

I do like both the Pac and SEC options (prefer Pac of the two and I feel it's more likely at this point).

I do want to throw my B1G "continuity rule" solution out there again:
Add Kansas, Oklahoma, Rice, and Either Texas or Tulane to go to 18.

Rice might well be preferable to UT (the orange one) for a couple of reasons, including OU looking to split from that relationship at least on a conference affiliation level.

There is no alternative universe where Rice is preferable to UT when discussing candidates to join an ATHLETICALLY based conference. I root against UT at every opportunity, but I can't find any basis to make the above argument.

You suggested Kansas, Oklahoma, Rice and either UT or Tulane.

If that is ever the grouping being considered by any conference, it is guaranteed that the two schools listed following the words ' . . . and either . . ' would be Rice and Tulane.

Any conference commissioner who would take Rice over Texas for athletic purposes (TV contract negotiations being the first criteria) would be fired immediately.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2016 08:34 AM by Rick Gerlach.)
10-19-2016 08:33 AM
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RE: Difference a conference makes
Agree 100% that our location is problematic, unfortunately......
10-19-2016 09:01 AM
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