Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
Author Message
gosports1 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,845
Joined: Sep 2008
Reputation: 153
I Root For: providence
Location:
Post: #21
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
This is not speculation but fact, Temple and Rutgers were the original targets to represent Philadelphia and #2 in NY Metro. Had they been interested and agreed to join the new league Villanova and seton hall would not be in the BE (unless a split still happened years later)
SPECULATION BELOW
Holy Cross still would have said no which means BC would be the choice. The BE would have 5 FB schools. the 5 FB and PC would be the 6 needed to offer Penn St. imo Pitt would become number 10 . The BE probably wouldn't have stayed at 7 for fb and would have invited in some capacity at least 2 more FB playing schools 9 fb 12 overall. Which 2?

would a league like below have been more attractive to a school that in our actual timeline didn't consider the BE? Would the BE still have been raided or would they be in position of power? Penn St would be the key if they go to B10 anyway then not much else changes and the end results we see today probably hold true. if they decided to remain in a BE that included Florida State, who knows what may have been


Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
Penn St
Temple
Pitt
UConn

+ West Virginia? Miami? Florida St? Virginia Tech? South Carolina? (ok that one is a stretch) Louisville? Cincy? Maryland?

Providence
Georgetown
St Johns
10-06-2016 06:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
The Black Knight of The Deplorables

Posts: 9,618
Joined: Oct 2013
I Root For: Army, SFU
Location: Michie Stadium 1945
Post: #22
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-05-2016 04:37 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is Requiem for the Big East a 30 for 30? If so, I'll have to find it on Netflix.

I've always been curious, where would college football be today had Joe Paterno gotten the Eastern all sports conference he wanted? Would it have been profitable enough to endure the 04-05 realignment and then 10-13 realignment. Might they have been the one going after ACC schools and not the other way around?

The Eastern schools would have stuck together if Penn State was in a conference like that.

I am loath to admit it, but Penn State was the sun of Eastern football.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 08:39 PM by HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine.)
10-06-2016 08:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,161
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 449
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #23
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-05-2016 08:12 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Thought Pittsburgh was formerly a Metro school, but Wiki says they weren't. Did Pittsburgh choose between the Metro and Big East? I thought I once heard that Pittsburgh was strongly considered for the Metro, or was it the Great Midwest?

A: Pittsburgh was talking about joining the proposed Metro superconference, which would have had football.

If Metro football would have got off the ground, the Big East would have been usurped, and been no more that the CAA or the A10.

Pitt was never in the Metro and never seriously considered it – at least as far as I know.

Pittsburgh does not consider itself midwestern. It has always leaned to the east. That's true of the city, it's namesake university and the athletic programs that represent the city/university.

Prior to joining the Big East, Pitt played in the Eastern Athletic Association – known colloquially as "The Eastern 8." It was the forerunner of what eventually became the Atlantic 10.

The membership was continually changing but it was basically Pitt, Penn State, Duquesne, West Virginia, George Washington, Umass, Villanova, Rutgers and later Temple.

I loved that league!

We played the conference tournament at the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh – which was very close to half the conference (Pitt, PSU, WVU and DU). Hell, it was basically across the street from Duquesne (so is its replacement).

Those were some fierce rivalries – there were fist fights all the time on the court and in the stands. Surprisingly, at least as I remember it, the nastiest games were always between Duquesne in West Virginia. They brawled every time they played each other. It was awesome! Duquesne was a much stronger program then and they were definitely Pitt's top basketball rival at that time. In fact, during that period, Duquesne was often better than Pitt.

I say all that as a way of explaining that there's no way that we would've given all of that up to play a bunch of schools in the Mid-South and Midwest with whom we had no shared history or traditions. It would've made no sense.

The Big East, on the other hand, was an altogether different animal. Pitt and Penn State did not get along at all during that time and nobody trusted Joe Paterno.

Paterno was Penn State's official A.D. at the time and after not getting his way on some proposed rules changes, he resigned Penn State from the Eastern 8 a few years earlier via a middle of the night press release that they slipped under everyone's hotel room door on their way out of town.

True story.

There was no trust there whatsoever. That Eastern based all sports conference – which would've otherwise been a fabulous idea – had no chance to work because of who was serving as it's architect. To make a long story short, Penn State basically wanted to split all revenues equally except of course the football revenues. You can imagine how well that went over with everyone else.

Like a lead balloon.

Think Texas in the Big 12 now and that pretty much summarizes the dynamic that everyone outside of State College envisioned and nobody wanted any part of it.

Let me walk that back slightly. There were teams that were willing to go along with it because they didn't think they had any other real choice in the matter ( West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers). It's sort of like the Big 12 teams like Iowa State and Kansas State going along with whatever Texas wants. They know it's BS but what else are they going to do? However, the schools the did have a choice – Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College – obviously balked at his plan.

I think the Metro is an intriguing idea in retrospect but at the time nobody was talking about it – at least not in Pittsburgh they weren't. I don't think anyone had any idea how good some of those programs would become. Had anyone realized it, maybe there would've been a different decision made? It's fun to think about it but it's definitely historical revisionism.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 10:21 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
10-06-2016 09:59 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NJ2MDTerp Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,344
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 45
I Root For: Maryland
Location:
Post: #24
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-05-2016 10:48 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  gavitts original vision

Providence
st johns
Georgetown
Syracuse
Rutgers
temple
holy cross
UConn

it would be interesting to speculate what would have happened next.
would psu have had that 6th vote it needed from holy cross?
I'm surprised that both UConn and HC were included in Gavitt's plan, which I believed was to organize the northeast urban BB schools in one conference. You'd think BC and Pitt (or even Duquesne) would've been more appropriate choices.
10-06-2016 10:12 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NoDak Offline
Jersey Retired
Jersey Retired

Posts: 6,958
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 105
I Root For: UND
Location:
Post: #25
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-06-2016 09:59 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 08:12 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Thought Pittsburgh was formerly a Metro school, but Wiki says they weren't. Did Pittsburgh choose between the Metro and Big East? I thought I once heard that Pittsburgh was strongly considered for the Metro, or was it the Great Midwest?

A: Pittsburgh was talking about joining the proposed Metro superconference, which would have had football.

If Metro football would have got off the ground, the Big East would have been usurped, and been no more that the CAA or the A10.

Pitt was never in the Metro and never seriously considered it – at least as far as I know.

Pittsburgh does not consider itself midwestern. It has always leaned to the east. That's true of the city, it's namesake university and the athletic programs that represent the city/university.

Prior to joining the Big East, Pitt played in the Eastern Athletic Association – known colloquially as "The Eastern 8." It was the forerunner of what eventually became the Atlantic 10.

The membership was continually changing but it was basically Pitt, Penn State, Duquesne, West Virginia, George Washington, Umass, Villanova, Rutgers and later Temple.

I loved that league!

We played the conference tournament at the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh – which was very close to half the conference (Pitt, PSU, WVU and DU). Hell, it was basically across the street from Duquesne (so is its replacement).

Those were some fierce rivalries – there were fist fights all the time on the court and in the stands. Surprisingly, at least as I remember it, the nastiest games were always between Duquesne in West Virginia. They brawled every time they played each other. It was awesome! Duquesne was a much stronger program then and they were definitely Pitt's top basketball rival at that time. In fact, during that period, Duquesne was often better than Pitt.

I say all that as a way of explaining that there's no way that we would've given all of that up to play a bunch of schools in the Mid-South and Midwest with whom we had no shared history or traditions. It would've made no sense.

The Big East, on the other hand, was an altogether different animal. Pitt and Penn State did not get along at all during that time and nobody trusted Joe Paterno.

Paterno was Penn State's official A.D. at the time and after not getting his way on some proposed rules changes, he resigned Penn State from the Eastern 8 a few years earlier via a middle of the night press release that they slipped under everyone's hotel room door on their way out of town.

True story.

There was no trust there whatsoever. That Eastern based all sports conference – which would've otherwise been a fabulous idea – had no chance to work because of who was serving as it's architect. To make a long story short, Penn State basically wanted to split all revenues equally except of course the football revenues. You can imagine how well that went over with everyone else.

Like a lead balloon.

Think Texas in the Big 12 now and that pretty much summarizes the dynamic that everyone outside of State College envisioned and nobody wanted any part of it.

Let me walk that back slightly. There were teams that were willing to go along with it because they didn't think they had any other real choice in the matter ( West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers). It's sort of like the Big 12 teams like Iowa State and Kansas State going along with whatever Texas wants. They know it's BS but what else are they going to do? However, the schools the did have a choice – Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College – obviously balked at his plan.

I think the Metro is an intriguing idea in retrospect but at the time nobody was talking about it – at least not in Pittsburgh they weren't. I don't think anyone had any idea how good some of those programs would become. Had anyone realized it, maybe there would've been a different decision made? It's fun to think about it but it's definitely historical revisionism.

Worked with enough Pittsburghers and Buffaloans, who genuinely trust people and are not by nature cynical about everyone, to consider them grounded in Midwestern values. Syracuse and Rochester seem to have east coast mentality, but not sure where the dividing line is in Pennsylvania.

Some basketball announcer was talking about Pitt almost taking a Metro berth, but decided for the Big East. Thought that was a strange choice, to a Midwesterner, as those mostly Catholic eastern schools didn't resonate with me.

Sounds like Pitt's biggest mistake was believing in Paterno, who later dumped the whole Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 for the B1G.
10-06-2016 10:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
upstater1 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,404
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 35
I Root For: UConn
Location:
Post: #26
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-06-2016 10:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Worked with enough Pittsburghers and Buffaloans, who genuinely trust people and are not by nature cynical about everyone, to consider them grounded in Midwestern values. Syracuse and Rochester seem to have east coast mentality, but not sure where the dividing line is in Pennsylvania.

Some basketball announcer was talking about Pitt almost taking a Metro berth, but decided for the Big East. Thought that was a strange choice, to a Midwesterner, as those mostly Catholic eastern schools didn't resonate with me.

Sounds like Pitt's biggest mistake was believing in Paterno, who later dumped the whole Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 for the B1G.

Buffalonian here. Since I lived in Michigan for 3 years, I can say that there is culture shock if a Buffalonian moves to the midwest. There may be some cultural affinities with western PA and perhaps Cleveland, but that's about the end of it. The region is simply upstate New York, rust belt, but not really midwestern values.

About the Paterno point made earlier, the reason Paterno was shot down is that Penn State wanted a bigger cut of the pie.

Ironically, just before the 2003 break-up, the Big East offered Miami an even bigger cut of the pie as an enticement to stay.
10-07-2016 08:26 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
upstater1 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,404
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 35
I Root For: UConn
Location:
Post: #27
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
Speaking of Requiem for the Big East, it was filmed by a Georgetown alum and fan. It shouldn't have been titled that since the entire focus was on the 3 or 4 year period when multiple teams made the Final 4.

All the future seasons and championships were barely even mentioned. You wouldn't even know for instance that UConn, which is the Big East's all-time leader in championships, was even in the conference. I found it pretty telling that a Georgetown fan would whitewash that history, but it did coincide with a 20 year drought for Georgetown final 4s.
10-07-2016 08:29 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RutgersGuy Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,127
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 152
I Root For: Rutgers
Location:
Post: #28
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 08:29 AM)upstater1 Wrote:  Speaking of Requiem for the Big East, it was filmed by a Georgetown alum and fan. It shouldn't have been titled that since the entire focus was on the 3 or 4 year period when multiple teams made the Final 4.

All the future seasons and championships were barely even mentioned. You wouldn't even know for instance that UConn, which is the Big East's all-time leader in championships, was even in the conference. I found it pretty telling that a Georgetown fan would whitewash that history, but it did coincide with a 20 year drought for Georgetown final 4s.

Yeah that irked me. It was more of a Georgetown/Cuse love fest with some Louie and Rollie sprinkled in. It really should have been a part 1 of a longer doc. That could have been the 80's portion, then a second one of the 90's and intro of football and the dominance of Miami then a 00's one dealing with realignment leading into it's current form.

Started great but then felt rushed at the end where they quickly bypassed 2 decades.
10-07-2016 09:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
The Cutter of Bish Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,281
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 217
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #29
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 09:50 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 08:29 AM)upstater1 Wrote:  Speaking of Requiem for the Big East, it was filmed by a Georgetown alum and fan. It shouldn't have been titled that since the entire focus was on the 3 or 4 year period when multiple teams made the Final 4.

All the future seasons and championships were barely even mentioned. You wouldn't even know for instance that UConn, which is the Big East's all-time leader in championships, was even in the conference. I found it pretty telling that a Georgetown fan would whitewash that history, but it did coincide with a 20 year drought for Georgetown final 4s.

Yeah that irked me. It was more of a Georgetown/Cuse love fest with some Louie and Rollie sprinkled in. It really should have been a part 1 of a longer doc. That could have been the 80's portion, then a second one of the 90's and intro of football and the dominance of Miami then a 00's one dealing with realignment leading into it's current form.

Started great but then felt rushed at the end where they quickly bypassed 2 decades.

I don't know how you go into any doc about the Big East and it not be some Ken Burns-like saga about the context for its formation, the whole football component (how a lawsuit and bowl challenges squeezed independents into conference affiliation, and how the Big East had to sponsor something enough within it didn't want), the politics, and then a decade-by-decade synopsis of the conference, because, honestly, for something from 1980 to 2010, just wow. So much in so little time in that one place.

Formation
1980's basketball
1990's football
2000's bursting bubble
2010's the death

Easily five hours worth of content.

And ESPN simply can't deliver it because of their part of essentially destabilizing the conference from 2000 onward.
10-07-2016 10:28 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
H.U.S.T.L.E. Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 600
Joined: Mar 2016
Reputation: 67
I Root For: VT / JMU
Location: Northern VA
Post: #30
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 10:28 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 09:50 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 08:29 AM)upstater1 Wrote:  Speaking of Requiem for the Big East, it was filmed by a Georgetown alum and fan. It shouldn't have been titled that since the entire focus was on the 3 or 4 year period when multiple teams made the Final 4.

All the future seasons and championships were barely even mentioned. You wouldn't even know for instance that UConn, which is the Big East's all-time leader in championships, was even in the conference. I found it pretty telling that a Georgetown fan would whitewash that history, but it did coincide with a 20 year drought for Georgetown final 4s.

Yeah that irked me. It was more of a Georgetown/Cuse love fest with some Louie and Rollie sprinkled in. It really should have been a part 1 of a longer doc. That could have been the 80's portion, then a second one of the 90's and intro of football and the dominance of Miami then a 00's one dealing with realignment leading into it's current form.

Started great but then felt rushed at the end where they quickly bypassed 2 decades.

I don't know how you go into any doc about the Big East and it not be some Ken Burns-like saga about the context for its formation, the whole football component (how a lawsuit and bowl challenges squeezed independents into conference affiliation, and how the Big East had to sponsor something enough within it didn't want), the politics, and then a decade-by-decade synopsis of the conference, because, honestly, for something from 1980 to 2010, just wow. So much in so little time in that one place.

Formation
1980's basketball
1990's football
2000's bursting bubble
2010's the death

Easily five hours worth of content.

And ESPN simply can't deliver it because of their part of essentially destabilizing the conference from 2000 onward.

Sounds like we need Bill Simmons and HBO on the case. I thought I'd read somewhere that he was going to be involved in documentaries as part of his deal, and I think that would be a great topic for HBO Sports.
10-07-2016 11:02 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
The Black Knight of The Deplorables

Posts: 9,618
Joined: Oct 2013
I Root For: Army, SFU
Location: Michie Stadium 1945
Post: #31
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
I can't stand Penn State but I can't blame them for not wanting to share football revenues equally. The other Eastern schools left the region down. Of course, Penn State should have been okay with the other schools not sharing their basketball money.

And Penn State made the right move to join the Big 10 over trying to patch together a conference where half of the members are jealous of them and the other half can't carry their own weight.

Eastern football needed West Virginia, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, Syracuse to be consistently better. It is a shame that they weren't. A conference of all those teams and more would be good for the sport to have.
10-07-2016 04:14 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
solohawks Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 20,782
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 810
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Wilmington, NC
Post: #32
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
Northeastern schools have always sucked at the conference thing. Hofstra is the reason the CAA does not have divisions due to their blackballing of Stony Brook. Instead of 2 6 team north/south divisions the CAA is a 10 team mid major round robin conference from Charleston to Boston
10-07-2016 04:36 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RutgersGuy Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,127
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 152
I Root For: Rutgers
Location:
Post: #33
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 04:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Northeastern schools have always sucked at the conference thing. Hofstra is the reason the CAA does not have divisions due to their blackballing of Stony Brook. Instead of 2 6 team north/south divisions the CAA is a 10 team mid major round robin conference from Charleston to Boston

The 5 original BBall playing BE members are all still together. Only BC, Cuse and UConn aren't with them anymore.
10-07-2016 06:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
solohawks Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 20,782
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 810
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Wilmington, NC
Post: #34
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 06:56 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 04:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Northeastern schools have always sucked at the conference thing. Hofstra is the reason the CAA does not have divisions due to their blackballing of Stony Brook. Instead of 2 6 team north/south divisions the CAA is a 10 team mid major round robin conference from Charleston to Boston

The 5 original BBall playing BE members are all still together. Only BC, Cuse and UConn aren't with them anymore.

Rejecting Penn st hurt long term. See your example
10-07-2016 07:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
gosports1 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,845
Joined: Sep 2008
Reputation: 153
I Root For: providence
Location:
Post: #35
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-06-2016 10:12 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 10:48 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  gavitts original vision

Providence
st johns
Georgetown
Syracuse
Rutgers
temple
holy cross
UConn

it would be interesting to speculate what would have happened next.
would psu have had that 6th vote it needed from holy cross?
I'm surprised that both UConn and HC were included in Gavitt's plan, which I believed was to organize the northeast urban BB schools in one conference. You'd think BC and Pitt (or even Duquesne) would've been more appropriate choices.

he had a connection with HC and they were actually a good program then. From what ive read he thought UConn had potential. They wanted a team from Boston area and at least one other new England school to keep PC (and BC)company.
Not sure why Pitt wasn't considered off the bat. maybe they wanted to focus on the boston-dc corridor?
10-07-2016 09:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,161
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 449
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #36
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-06-2016 10:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Worked with enough Pittsburghers and Buffaloans, who genuinely trust people and are not by nature cynical about everyone, to consider them grounded in Midwestern values. Syracuse and Rochester seem to have east coast mentality, but not sure where the dividing line is in Pennsylvania.

Some basketball announcer was talking about Pitt almost taking a Metro berth, but decided for the Big East. Thought that was a strange choice, to a Midwesterner, as those mostly Catholic eastern schools didn't resonate with me.

Sounds like Pitt's biggest mistake was believing in Paterno, who later dumped the whole Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 for the B1G.

I think your comparison of Pittsburgh to Buffalo is a pretty good one. I think we are similar in that we are cities without a real regional identity. We are obviously nothing like Northeastern cities like Boston, New York and Philadelphia. Also, we do have some Midwestern attributes - very neighborly, friendly, salt of the earth, all that. However, we are definitely NOT midwestern cities by any stretch of the imagination.

Trust me, dude, I lived in Ohio for many years and it is very different than Western Pennsylvania on a lot of fronts. My best friend's wife it's from the Cleveland suburb called Strongsville and they now live in Pittsburgh. We have talked about it many times and she definitely agrees with me that the two places are very different – surprisingly different. Remember, we are also only about an hour from West Virginia and that's radically different from both Pennsylvania and Ohio.

It is just one of those places. That's actually what makes it such a great place to be from. Pittsburgh is it's own place and it beats to its own drummer. I take immense pride in that fact.

If you want to know where the border is between the Northeast and the Midwest I would suggest that it is at the Pennsylvania/Ohio state line. However, the weird thing is we are also not like Central Pennsylvania or Eastern Pennsylvania. If anything, Central Pennsylvania is like the Midwest – However, Pittsburgh is nothing like that whatsoever.

As for the Metro thing, I think the basketball announcer who made that statement was just plain wrong. It was never even close to happening. We had it too good in the eastern eight. We weren't giving that up to play Tulane and Memphis - no disrespect to those two schools. However, we just had nothing in common with them and did not care about them at all.

Finally, I think it was just the opposite of them trusting Paterno too much. I think everyone trusted Paterno too little – which is why his proposed conference never came to fruition.

He always blamed it on Pitt but you will notice that nobody else signed on either. What does that tell you?

As we later learned with his dealings internally at Penn State, he wasn't real big on compromise. It was pretty much his way or the highway and he dealt with everyone that way.

For 40 years he could afford to behave that way because he was treated like a king. He was the most powerful man at the most powerful school in the Northeast and he knew it and wasn't afraid to remind everyone of it at every opportunity.

Penn Staters loved him for it. Everyone else hated him for it. Well, everyone who actually dealt with him on a regular basis.

However, for the conference to come together – and everyone wanted it to happen – he needed to compromise a little. He simply wouldn't do it so it never happened. It's truly a shame but that's how it goes.

Now Penn State and Rutgers are playing in a conference based out of Chicago; West Virginia is playing in a conference based out of freaking Dallas; and Pittsburgh, Syracuse, and Boston College are playing in a conference based out of Greensboro, NC.

And we're actually all the lucky ones! Schools like Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Cincinnati, etc., were not quite as fortunate.

That's the price we pay for the way we ALL treated each other for years and years. The Big 12 is going down the exact same road and trust me when I tell you they are going to live to regret it.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2016 09:12 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
10-07-2016 09:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,161
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 449
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #37
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 09:07 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 10:12 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 10:48 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  gavitts original vision

Providence
st johns
Georgetown
Syracuse
Rutgers
temple
holy cross
UConn

it would be interesting to speculate what would have happened next.
would psu have had that 6th vote it needed from holy cross?
I'm surprised that both UConn and HC were included in Gavitt's plan, which I believed was to organize the northeast urban BB schools in one conference. You'd think BC and Pitt (or even Duquesne) would've been more appropriate choices.

he had a connection with HC and they were actually a good program then. From what ive read he thought UConn had potential. They wanted a team from Boston area and at least one other new England school to keep PC (and BC)company.
Not sure why Pitt wasn't considered off the bat. maybe they wanted to focus on the boston-dc corridor?

I know why Pitt wasn't considered off the bat – because we weren't part of the Northeast Corridor. This has been my point all along. We were/are on a cultural island unto ourselves. It's the best thing about Pittsburgh and the worst thing about it too.

If we do fit into any geographic/cultural niche, I would say we are a Mid-Atlantic city. I know people have a hard time understanding that but it's true.

Also, Pitt's basketball program at that time was absolutely terrible. When I say terrible, I don't mean like rarely made the NCAA tournament, I mean never made the tournament. I remember one year in the very early 80s we played in the NIT and everyone was extremely excited about that.

The Big East took in Pitt, not because they wanted us, but because they knew that by taking us they would checkmate Paterno's all sports conference. They were right and we were very happy to capitalize on our good fortune.

However, if you watch the 30/30 that was referenced above, or if you ever listened to any of the officials talk about us, we were always an afterthought in that conference. We were their first of many necessary evil compromises and I always felt we were treated that way.

However, we didn't have any alternative so we had to take it… Until we did have an alternative and we didn't...

Even when we left, Mike Tranghese was not nasty towards Syracuse but he was vicious towards Pitt. He said we were no big loss at all but losing them was devastating to their cultural identity or something like that.

The thing is, he was right on both counts.

However, I was like, "Love you too, Mikey. See you somewhere down the road, buddy."
[middle finger deviantly extended]
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2016 09:38 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
10-07-2016 09:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
gosports1 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,845
Joined: Sep 2008
Reputation: 153
I Root For: providence
Location:
Post: #38
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
I don't want to open old wounds since we have all moved on. However, I think some of the anger Tranghese expressed over Pitt had to do with the way they handled the ACC invite. Wasn't the Pitt AD one of the most vocal about turning down the espn offer and was the head of the expansion committee? I seem to remember Pitt taking a page out of WVU's book when the topic came up about the timeline for leaving and the fees that would be owed and they got a little nasty. Syracuse on the other hand seemed to remain calmer and less vocal (at least publically) about their departure. Tranghese probably felt he had to defend the BE against some the comments Pitt made, maybe?
refresh my memory is that how it happened?
10-08-2016 09:53 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NoDak Offline
Jersey Retired
Jersey Retired

Posts: 6,958
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 105
I Root For: UND
Location:
Post: #39
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
(10-07-2016 09:08 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 10:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Worked with enough Pittsburghers and Buffaloans, who genuinely trust people and are not by nature cynical about everyone, to consider them grounded in Midwestern values. Syracuse and Rochester seem to have east coast mentality, but not sure where the dividing line is in Pennsylvania.

Some basketball announcer was talking about Pitt almost taking a Metro berth, but decided for the Big East. Thought that was a strange choice, to a Midwesterner, as those mostly Catholic eastern schools didn't resonate with me.

Sounds like Pitt's biggest mistake was believing in Paterno, who later dumped the whole Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 for the B1G.

I think your comparison of Pittsburgh to Buffalo is a pretty good one. I think we are similar in that we are cities without a real regional identity. We are obviously nothing like Northeastern cities like Boston, New York and Philadelphia. Also, we do have some Midwestern attributes - very neighborly, friendly, salt of the earth, all that. However, we are definitely NOT midwestern cities by any stretch of the imagination.

Trust me, dude, I lived in Ohio for many years and it is very different than Western Pennsylvania on a lot of fronts. My best friend's wife it's from the Cleveland suburb called Strongsville and they now live in Pittsburgh. We have talked about it many times and she definitely agrees with me that the two places are very different – surprisingly different. Remember, we are also only about an hour from West Virginia and that's radically different from both Pennsylvania and Ohio.

It is just one of those places. That's actually what makes it such a great place to be from. Pittsburgh is it's own place and it beats to its own drummer. I take immense pride in that fact.

If you want to know where the border is between the Northeast and the Midwest I would suggest that it is at the Pennsylvania/Ohio state line. However, the weird thing is we are also not like Central Pennsylvania or Eastern Pennsylvania. If anything, Central Pennsylvania is like the Midwest – However, Pittsburgh is nothing like that whatsoever.

As for the Metro thing, I think the basketball announcer who made that statement was just plain wrong. It was never even close to happening. We had it too good in the eastern eight. We weren't giving that up to play Tulane and Memphis - no disrespect to those two schools. However, we just had nothing in common with them and did not care about them at all.

Finally, I think it was just the opposite of them trusting Paterno too much. I think everyone trusted Paterno too little – which is why his proposed conference never came to fruition.

He always blamed it on Pitt but you will notice that nobody else signed on either. What does that tell you?

As we later learned with his dealings internally at Penn State, he wasn't real big on compromise. It was pretty much his way or the highway and he dealt with everyone that way.

For 40 years he could afford to behave that way because he was treated like a king. He was the most powerful man at the most powerful school in the Northeast and he knew it and wasn't afraid to remind everyone of it at every opportunity.

Penn Staters loved him for it. Everyone else hated him for it. Well, everyone who actually dealt with him on a regular basis.

However, for the conference to come together – and everyone wanted it to happen – he needed to compromise a little. He simply wouldn't do it so it never happened. It's truly a shame but that's how it goes.

Now Penn State and Rutgers are playing in a conference based out of Chicago; West Virginia is playing in a conference based out of freaking Dallas; and Pittsburgh, Syracuse, and Boston College are playing in a conference based out of Greensboro, NC.

And we're actually all the lucky ones! Schools like Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Cincinnati, etc., were not quite as fortunate.

That's the price we pay for the way we ALL treated each other for years and years. The Big 12 is going down the exact same road and trust me when I tell you they are going to live to regret it.

I lived in the Ohio Valley for a time, and traveled frequently to Columbus and Pittsburgh. Also previously worked for Pittsburgh and Philadelphia based companies.

The Columbus area is definitely the most Midwestern, more so that Cleveland or Cincinnati. Pittsburgh seemed much closer culturally to Columbus that Philadelphia.

Worked with Pitt, Carnegie-Mellon, and Robert Morris grads, and they were more similar culturally to Ohio St and Ohio grads than Temple, Penn, Delaware ones. Not saying anything about their work capabilities, but it seems like if an East coast school graduate doesn't actively strive to be open minded about others, that can be career limiting. One of the brightest people I ever met was a PhD scientist from Princeton, and he was totally open minded and didn't let provincialism enter his mind on decisions.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2016 03:16 PM by NoDak.)
10-08-2016 03:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
GoldenWarrior11 Online
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,626
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 602
I Root For: Marquette, BE
Location: Chicago
Post: #40
RE: When the Big East was forming: why no Temple
Even though the football/basketball split occurred in 2013, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the Big East split apart in 2003. While it did not happen for very good reasons (losing automatic NCAA birth, BCS slot, as well as the Big East name), it could have set in motion where we currently are today, just sooner.

Football
Cincinnati
Connecticut
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

Add Memphis?
Add East Carolina?

Basketball
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Notre Dame
Providence
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Villanova

Add Xavier?
Add Creighton?
10-08-2016 03:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.