(05-01-2017 03:07 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i liked to see Canadaian schools down here

Simon Fraser is D-II and in the GNAC. So they are at that level.

(04-30-2017 10:23 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(04-30-2017 08:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(04-27-2017 01:17 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 10:48 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.

Biola, Davenport, and Purdue NW are already moving, I'm asking about other ones that haven't already applied to D-II. C of C had to get in as an at large they weren't eligible for the TAAC tourney. They had a longer 7 yr provisional period since they were NAIA.

PWC isn't close to as good as the MIAA which may be the best D-II conf. if not the NSIC is. Really most don't care about anything other than football or bball. Some areas like out west where we are baseball is big. In the NE, Atlantic Lax is, in the North and East hockey is.

If Dominican(CA) was awesome at water polo, rowing and track, we wouldn't be clamoring for them to move up over a team w/ a decent football program or a more than decent bball program. Football, then bball drive most of the conference moves. I wonder if anyone could answer what made NJIT feel they should move up to D-I. Plus prior success in D-II doesn't equal good in D-I. Neither does not living up to potential in D-II equal failure in D-I. NDSU wasn't its dominate 80's self in 2004 when they moved. It was UND, GVSU, NW Mo. Northern Colorado won back to back titles in the late 90s and moved up to D-I and have done very little.

When would you say the NAIA stopped being the on par w/ D-II, NAIA?

I think we've gotten to the point where we're talking past each other.

I know Biola, Davenport and PNW are going D2; I referred to them because they are examples of who can go, and possibly should. Certainly DU and PNW are big enough, and there aren't any that big that remain. I think at the time that C of C transitioned it was only a 4 year period, and the NAIA allowed them to remain members and post season eligible until the final year. In other words, they had no years of post season ineligibility. Now it's a 7 year transition and can't be NAIA members after the first, so SIX years of post season ineligibility unless they join the NCCAA as well (or possibly USCCA? I don't know).

Important to remember that PNW is only 1 year old. It's all about future potential with them. Prior to this year they were two different schools, Purdue Calumet and Purdue North Central. Neither was well funded in athletics, although P-Calumet was gaining credibility.

Your paragraph about Dominican really goes to the heart of why I asked. Who cares what "we" clamor for? Your original statement that caught my attention was that Lindenwood was "ready". The real question is what do they want for their athletic program, and what would suggest to THEM that they are "ready"? I would think some athletic success at the conference level would be a prerequisite, and Lindenwood has had none. You could even say they would want a football or men's basketball conference championship, but they certainly haven't had that. If THEY think that simply being D1 would generate a lot more athletic donations and bigger crowds, more power to them I guess, most want to see some success first.

And I never said the NAIA wasn't on par with D2; I said they no longer significantly BETTER than D2. Specifically, there are no teams remaining capable of pulling off what College of Charleston did and going to the D1 Big Dance right out of the gate. I don't have a list of NAIA to D1 transitions handy, but I would put Belmont and Lipscomb just a notch below C of C, and there's been no one like that since. Houston Baptist transitioned, but they clearly have a lot of work to do before they could be considered successful.

Lindenwood is located in the Saint Louis market. I think they could get invited to the Horizon League.

Schools like Park University with a large student population might make it at the D2.

I might see some public NAIA schools to move up to D2 to attract more students. It just depends on who runs the schools that could make it.

Park's enrollment figures are deceptive since they have so many satellite campuses. The total figure you usually see of over 10k includes all the campuses and all the modes of education. Their main campus has undergraduate on campus enrollment of 1078. Not big enough (IMHO) to be successful in D2.

http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_...=205322922

There's little evidence that going D2 attracts non-athlete students. It probably matters more that they win and have rivalries. Way more fun going to an NAIA school that wins in packed gyms than a D2 school that loses in empty gyms. And vice versa.

(05-01-2017 03:07 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i liked to see Canadaian schools down here

As far as I know, Simon Fraser is the only Canadian school that has a full athletic program participating in the US (D2/GNAC). The NAIA has 3 members that participate in certain sports: UBC for Baseball/Softball (& Golf?), University of Victoria for (I think) golf, and University of Winnipeg for Baseball. However at the NAIA convention this year there were some legislative changes that are aimed at non-US members. Nothing major, mostly just housekeeping to clarify eligibility and other legalese. But it could portend a push outside the US. University of the Virgin Islands was admitted last year, and there's talk of some of the Puerto Rico schools joining (although they would be US schools, technically?).

(05-01-2017 06:55 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 03:07 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i liked to see Canadaian schools down here

As far as I know, Simon Fraser is the only Canadian school that has a full athletic program participating in the US (D2/GNAC). The NAIA has 3 members that participate in certain sports: UBC for Baseball/Softball (& Golf?), University of Victoria for (I think) golf, and University of Winnipeg for Baseball. However at the NAIA convention this year there were some legislative changes that are aimed at non-US members. Nothing major, mostly just housekeeping to clarify eligibility and other legalese. But it could portend a push outside the US. University of the Virgin Islands was admitted last year, and there's talk of some of the Puerto Rico schools joining (although they would be US schools, technically?).

The University of the Bahamas is looking to rejoin the Sun Conference for 2018. That's the only non-Canadian school that I know of looking to join.

(05-01-2017 03:01 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  You always say NAIA was better than D-II, funny the D-II guys said they've always been better. I look at it this way, the D-II playoff schools the last 15-20 years were better than the NAIA playoff schools for the most part, in football and basketball. The GVSUs, UNA, NW Mo, UND, N.Colos, Valdosta Sts were better than the Carrolls, Sioux Falls, Georgetown(KY), St. Francis(IN) NW Ok. Same in bball, the CSUBs, Kentucky Wesleyans, Metro St., UC Davis> Life, Ok City, G'town, Birm-So.

It depends on the sport, and that usually comes down to scholarships.

D2 football is better than NAIA football because there difference is (I think) 50% more scholarships for D2. NAIA allows 24 (but doesn't count honors students and JVs) and D2 - I think - allows 36(?). Football is what most here care about I guess. There aren't many head to head games to compare for sure, the one that does come to mind is Marian vs. Indianapolis.

For basketball, yes I think NAIA is better but not by much. Eleven scholarships (again, not including honors students) vs 10 for D2. There are a couple of head to head comparisons that bear this out, although they are getting a little old. NAIA St Catharine was a 1st round tournament loser in 2011 but beat D2 national champion Bellarmine. NAIA Westmont didn't qualify for the 2010 national tournament but beat D2 champion Cal Poly Pomona. If you have other comparisons that show otherwise let me know.

(05-01-2017 07:01 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 06:55 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 03:07 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i liked to see Canadaian schools down here

As far as I know, Simon Fraser is the only Canadian school that has a full athletic program participating in the US (D2/GNAC). The NAIA has 3 members that participate in certain sports: UBC for Baseball/Softball (& Golf?), University of Victoria for (I think) golf, and University of Winnipeg for Baseball. However at the NAIA convention this year there were some legislative changes that are aimed at non-US members. Nothing major, mostly just housekeeping to clarify eligibility and other legalese. But it could portend a push outside the US. University of the Virgin Islands was admitted last year, and there's talk of some of the Puerto Rico schools joining (although they would be US schools, technically?).

The University of the Bahamas is looking to rejoin the Sun Conference for 2018. That's the only non-Canadian school that I know of looking to join.

Do you have a link for this? I think they are considering the NAIA as well, but that's only scuttlebutt.

(05-01-2017 07:25 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 03:01 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  You always say NAIA was better than D-II, funny the D-II guys said they've always been better. I look at it this way, the D-II playoff schools the last 15-20 years were better than the NAIA playoff schools for the most part, in football and basketball. The GVSUs, UNA, NW Mo, UND, N.Colos, Valdosta Sts were better than the Carrolls, Sioux Falls, Georgetown(KY), St. Francis(IN) NW Ok. Same in bball, the CSUBs, Kentucky Wesleyans, Metro St., UC Davis> Life, Ok City, G'town, Birm-So.

It depends on the sport, and that usually comes down to scholarships.

D2 football is better than NAIA football because there difference is (I think) 50% more scholarships for D2. NAIA allows 24 (but doesn't count honors students and JVs) and D2 - I think - allows 36(?). Football is what most here care about I guess. There aren't many head to head games to compare for sure, the one that does come to mind is Marian vs. Indianapolis.

For basketball, yes I think NAIA is better but not by much. Eleven scholarships (again, not including honors students) vs 10 for D2. There are a couple of head to head comparisons that bear this out, although they are getting a little old. NAIA St Catharine was a 1st round tournament loser in 2011 but beat D2 national champion Bellarmine. NAIA Westmont didn't qualify for the 2010 national tournament but beat D2 champion Cal Poly Pomona. If you have other comparisons that show otherwise let me know.

I saw that the first football game that was held in Kansas was a game between Baker Vs Kansas which the conference is now known as the all Kansas conference in the NAIA. Baker won that game over the Jayhawks.

Schools come and gone. I like to see Langston back into the SWAC again which they were the co-founders of. The founders of SWAC are all in the NAIA right now. None of the schools there now are not.

I do see some potentials for Oklahoma City U. rejoin the D1 ranks. They did not do bad at D1. The payouts for men's basketball in the tournaments are much more now than it was back in the 1970s and 80s when OKCU were D1. They might have been a potential MVC target today if they have stayed. I do see them as a better GAC member than Southern Nazarene or a NW Oklahoma State.

But with the NW Oklahoma State, Central Oklahoma and others to form an all Oklahoma conference in the future? Great American Conference is the goal for those schools? It would put them over 14 if you include Rogers State and Cameron without football and UAFS without football. It seems there is a hint that some of the Lonestar and GAC schools might be moving to D1. The likely targets could be Central Oklahoma, Arkansas Tech, Harding, Henderson State, Commerce, Kingsville, West Texas A&M, Tarleton State and maybe for a non-football schools like Rogers State (Tulsa area), Cameron (Lawton) and UAFS (Fort Smith) could be logical Summit League members. In the future, I think Oklahoma Baptist could be a target for a D1 conference invite.

(05-01-2017 07:25 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 03:01 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  You always say NAIA was better than D-II, funny the D-II guys said they've always been better. I look at it this way, the D-II playoff schools the last 15-20 years were better than the NAIA playoff schools for the most part, in football and basketball. The GVSUs, UNA, NW Mo, UND, N.Colos, Valdosta Sts were better than the Carrolls, Sioux Falls, Georgetown(KY), St. Francis(IN) NW Ok. Same in bball, the CSUBs, Kentucky Wesleyans, Metro St., UC Davis> Life, Ok City, G'town, Birm-So.

It depends on the sport, and that usually comes down to scholarships.

D2 football is better than NAIA football because there difference is (I think) 50% more scholarships for D2. NAIA allows 24 (but doesn't count honors students and JVs) and D2 - I think - allows 36(?). Football is what most here care about I guess. There aren't many head to head games to compare for sure, the one that does come to mind is Marian vs. Indianapolis.

For basketball, yes I think NAIA is better but not by much. Eleven scholarships (again, not including honors students) vs 10 for D2. There are a couple of head to head comparisons that bear this out, although they are getting a little old. NAIA St Catharine was a 1st round tournament loser in 2011 but beat D2 national champion Bellarmine. NAIA Westmont didn't qualify for the 2010 national tournament but beat D2 champion Cal Poly Pomona. If you have other comparisons that show otherwise let me know.

If the GNAC wants football or members? I think the public schools in the Cascade Conference might be able to make a move. I read an news article that Southern Oregon made a new record for enrollment of over 8000 students enrolled at the same time for last fall. Southern Oregon, Eastern Oregon, Oregon Tech and Evergreen State College might be able to join the GNAC. GNAC is mainly made up of Oregon, Washington, one Canada and one Idaho school. Playing football at Western Oregon, Central Washington, and Vancouver could be cheaper. College of Idaho could step up there as well for a travel partner for Northwest Nazarene.

Oregon:
Eastern Oregon
Southern Oregon
Western Oregon
Oregon Tech
Concordia-Portland

Idaho:
College of Idaho
NW Nazarene
Lewis And Clark State

Alaska:
Alaska
Alaska-Anchorage

Washington:
Central Washington
Saint Martin's
Seattle Pacific
Western Washington
Evergreen State

Simon Fraser

Montana:
Montana State-Billings

Football affiliates:
Azusa Pacific
Humboldt State

Soccer:
Mary (North Dakota)


I could see the California public schools moving with the public schools in D2.

Cal.-Merced D2 over 7000 students in the fall of 2016. They are around the size of North Alabama that is moving to D1.
California Maritime D3
Johnson and Wales-North Miami shows over 16,000 students, but that is all campuses combined.
St. Thomas in Florida over 4000 might find a place in D2. They would be bigger than some D1 schools right now.
Southeastern might find a spot in D2.
College of Coastal Georgia, Dalton State, Georgia Gwinnett (close to 12,000 students in 2016), Middle Georgia State,
Roosevelt
Indiana Tech 9652
Indiana U. East
Indiana U. Kokomo
Indiana U. Northwest
Indiana U. South Bend 8000 +
Indiana U. Southeast
LSU-Shreveport
Loyola-New Orleans
Lawrence Tech
Michigan-Dearborn over 9000 students.
Missouri Baptist
Bellevue
Northwestern Ohio
Shawnee State
Bethel, Tenn.
Houston-Victoria


Those are large enrollment that is actually more than severa; D2 and several D1 schools.

(05-01-2017 07:25 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 03:01 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  You always say NAIA was better than D-II, funny the D-II guys said they've always been better. I look at it this way, the D-II playoff schools the last 15-20 years were better than the NAIA playoff schools for the most part, in football and basketball. The GVSUs, UNA, NW Mo, UND, N.Colos, Valdosta Sts were better than the Carrolls, Sioux Falls, Georgetown(KY), St. Francis(IN) NW Ok. Same in bball, the CSUBs, Kentucky Wesleyans, Metro St., UC Davis> Life, Ok City, G'town, Birm-So.

It depends on the sport, and that usually comes down to scholarships.

D2 football is better than NAIA football because there difference is (I think) 50% more scholarships for D2. NAIA allows 24 (but doesn't count honors students and JVs) and D2 - I think - allows 36(?). Football is what most here care about I guess. There aren't many head to head games to compare for sure, the one that does come to mind is Marian vs. Indianapolis.

For basketball, yes I think NAIA is better but not by much. Eleven scholarships (again, not including honors students) vs 10 for D2. There are a couple of head to head comparisons that bear this out, although they are getting a little old. NAIA St Catharine was a 1st round tournament loser in 2011 but beat D2 national champion Bellarmine. NAIA Westmont didn't qualify for the 2010 national tournament but beat D2 champion Cal Poly Pomona. If you have other comparisons that show otherwise let me know.

you gave 2. I do believe they are similar in that most NAIA moves are to D-II vs D-III. But scholly vs scholly aren't equal. Fresno gets 85 and so does USC but USC gets better quality for their 85. So you could use that example for when an NAIA wins it should be vs a better quality athlete. What is the NCAA D-II top 25 record vs the NAIA top 25 the past 20 years? That will tell us something. If you can find that somewhere that would be telling. Are you insinuating that the D-II top 25 guys don't have wins let alone not as many or more vs top NAIA schools? Crazy talk. I don't know if Missouri Valley is good but NW Mo beat them 103-58. I couldn't find a D-II vs NAIA record. I just clicked NW Mo schedule and they had 1 gm vs NAIA. 1995 UCR beat Pt. Loma, Coll. of ND and UCSC(dual member) who were all NAIA back in 1995. Findley beat Marygrove by 50. Ashland beat Wilberforce by 35, GVSU beat trinity Christ. by 37. You can tell me how good or bad they are. i don't even know how good all the D-II schools I'm posting are. Most of the gm lists are from the last 2 yrs. The UCR was a random find going back 20+. ccaa was 10-2 vs NAIA, Biola who is moving to D-II, won by 1 and 4 vs 18-10 and 26-8 teams. Oregon Tech though, the 1 name when it comes to NAIA D-II bball power, lost to a 13-16 ccaa team.
You can look through every D-II schedule if you want. I sure don't. I did the CCAA, since we are both from CA. Hey David St. Have at it! tell us the final count
http://campus.mst.edu/athleticsarchives/...hoops.html

Now I wonder what D-II record vs the bottom of D-I is.

NAIA will always have the biggest upset ever. Then NAIA Chaminade beats #1 Virginia

But let me give you an example, Lehigh beat Duke in the tourney. So the PL must be better than the ACC. And Lehigh is a better basketball program than Duke. See how that doesn't work. I can give way more than 2. Enter any 14/15 seed that won vs 2/3 seed. None of the 14/15s are better programs or in better conferences.
And yes D-II football allows up to 36 some conf. have rules of only 24 and some play under the 24.

(05-01-2017 07:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I do see some potentials for Oklahoma City U. rejoin the D1 ranks. They did not do bad at D1. The payouts for men's basketball in the tournaments are much more now than it was back in the 1970s and 80s when OKCU were D1. They might have been a potential MVC target today if they have stayed. I do see them as a better GAC member than Southern Nazarene or a NW Oklahoma State.

I can remember when OCU was Division I. That means I'm getting old. They struggled toward the end of their run, but they have a proud history. They played in a total of 11 NCAA D-I tournaments, and were founding members of the Trans America (now Atlantic Sun) and Midwestern City (now Horizon League) conferences. They struggled in their last years in D-I, but moved to the NAIA and became a beast. They've won 6 NAIA men's national championships, but none since 2008. They've won a ton of NAIA national championships in other sports, as well.

I'm not close to the situation, so I'm not familiar with their financials, but they didn't follow their local NAIA rivals (Southern Nazarene, Oklahoma Christian, Oklahoma Baptist) to D-II. I do know there was a move in the 2000's for them to move back to D-I and play in what is now Chesapeake Energy Arena, but the NBA came to town, those ideas went by the wayside, and OCU stayed in the NAIA. Their undergraduate enrollment is under 2000, but they have well-respected graduate programs in law and business that bump their total enrollment to over 3000 students. They would fit in the D-II Heartland Conference (no football), but they appear content in the NAIA. With the Thunder, OU, and OSU, there is simply no oxygen for another D-I program in the area.

(05-01-2017 07:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  In the future, I think Oklahoma Baptist could be a target for a D1 conference invite.

I'm an OBU grad. I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think anyone there is pointing to Division I in the future. We're in the third year of a three-year transition from NAIA to Division II. If the transition finishes well (and it has gone well so far), we'll be approved as full members of D-II this summer. This will be our 5th season back on the football field, having played two in NAIA and two in the D-II GAC. There are plans for a 7500 seat stadium, but fundraising is not complete. Basketball has struggled in the transition, after much success in the NAIA. We went from being an NAIA basketball school to being a D-II football school. :-) The other sports will be fine in D-II. We won three consecutive Learfield Directors' Cups in NAIA before leaving it. We're sponsoring 19 NCAA men's and women's sports (GAC, with swimming and lacrosse in the RMAC) at a school with around 1800 enrollment, spending just over $7,500,000 per year. We can be a good D-II program, but D-I would be a huge stretch. And that's ok. Not every school has to be big-time.

(05-01-2017 09:47 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 07:25 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 03:01 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  You always say NAIA was better than D-II, funny the D-II guys said they've always been better. I look at it this way, the D-II playoff schools the last 15-20 years were better than the NAIA playoff schools for the most part, in football and basketball. The GVSUs, UNA, NW Mo, UND, N.Colos, Valdosta Sts were better than the Carrolls, Sioux Falls, Georgetown(KY), St. Francis(IN) NW Ok. Same in bball, the CSUBs, Kentucky Wesleyans, Metro St., UC Davis> Life, Ok City, G'town, Birm-So.

It depends on the sport, and that usually comes down to scholarships.

D2 football is better than NAIA football because there difference is (I think) 50% more scholarships for D2. NAIA allows 24 (but doesn't count honors students and JVs) and D2 - I think - allows 36(?). Football is what most here care about I guess. There aren't many head to head games to compare for sure, the one that does come to mind is Marian vs. Indianapolis.

For basketball, yes I think NAIA is better but not by much. Eleven scholarships (again, not including honors students) vs 10 for D2. There are a couple of head to head comparisons that bear this out, although they are getting a little old. NAIA St Catharine was a 1st round tournament loser in 2011 but beat D2 national champion Bellarmine. NAIA Westmont didn't qualify for the 2010 national tournament but beat D2 champion Cal Poly Pomona. If you have other comparisons that show otherwise let me know.

you gave 2. I do believe they are similar in that most NAIA moves are to D-II vs D-III. But scholly vs scholly aren't equal. Fresno gets 85 and so does USC but USC gets better quality for their 85. So you could use that example for when an NAIA wins it should be vs a better quality athlete. What is the NCAA D-II top 25 record vs the NAIA top 25 the past 20 years? That will tell us something. If you can find that somewhere that would be telling. Are you insinuating that the D-II top 25 guys don't have wins let alone not as many or more vs top NAIA schools? Crazy talk. I don't know if Missouri Valley is good but NW Mo beat them 103-58. I couldn't find a D-II vs NAIA record. I just clicked NW Mo schedule and they had 1 gm vs NAIA. 1995 UCR beat Pt. Loma, Coll. of ND and UCSC(dual member) who were all NAIA back in 1995. Findley beat Marygrove by 50. Ashland beat Wilberforce by 35, GVSU beat trinity Christ. by 37. You can tell me how good or bad they are. i don't even know how good all the D-II schools I'm posting are. Most of the gm lists are from the last 2 yrs. The UCR was a random find going back 20+. ccaa was 10-2 vs NAIA, Biola who is moving to D-II, won by 1 and 4 vs 18-10 and 26-8 teams. Oregon Tech though, the 1 name when it comes to NAIA D-II bball power, lost to a 13-16 ccaa team.
You can look through every D-II schedule if you want. I sure don't. I did the CCAA, since we are both from CA. Hey David St. Have at it! tell us the final count
http://campus.mst.edu/athleticsarchives/...hoops.html

Now I wonder what D-II record vs the bottom of D-I is.

NAIA will always have the biggest upset ever. Then NAIA Chaminade beats #1 Virginia

But let me give you an example, Lehigh beat Duke in the tourney. So the PL must be better than the ACC. And Lehigh is a better basketball program than Duke. See how that doesn't work. I can give way more than 2. Enter any 14/15 seed that won vs 2/3 seed. None of the 14/15s are better programs or in better conferences.
And yes D-II football allows up to 36 some conf. have rules of only 24 and some play under the 24.

You've come upon the key problem: D2 schools generally do not play NAIA schools. My understanding is that the D2 rating system severely penalizes games against non-D2 teams. And when they DO play, they generally don't play good ones. So meaningful comparisons are few and far between. I went down the list of recent D2 basketball champions and looked at their schedules to see if I could find more than the ones I listed (and already knew about) but I didn't find any. Further back from 2007 it started getting hard to find actual schedules for the D2 champions. So I listed what I could find. I'm not aware of anyone keeping a list of D2/NAIA matchups over time. Of COURSE D2 Top 25 schools have wins over NAIA schools, but in general they play creampuffs. To address the ones you mention:

UCR (26-6, lost in the D2 championship game) was on the cusp of joining D1, PLNU was 13-17 that year. Loma had some good years and bad years in the NAIA, not a real creampuff. College of ND and Santa Cruz were never very good, that conference (Cal Pac) is/was the worst in the NAIA. UCR also beat CBU (13-17) by 15. Step one year forward though and UCR (18-9) loses twice to Master's. Can't find Master's record for that year but they went 1-1 in the tournament. Marygrove (11-20), Wilberforce (13-12) and Trinity Christian (12-17) are all NAIA DII (6 scholarships max) doormats. Wilberforce was on the cusp of closing a couple of years ago.

Biola this year - along with 3 other GSAC teams - were solid 2nd round teams in the NAIA. For the other 3, Masters lost to APU by 5 and beat Humbolt by 10. Westmont beat Concordia by 9 at Concordia. Hope International didn't play any D2s.

Oregon Tech is not what they used to be. Danny Miles retired, and his teams really had trailed off in his last few years at the helm. This year was actually a bit of an improvement for them, rebuilding with their new coach, going 24-10 but not making the tournament. This was their best season since winning their last championship in 2012. And they are a DII team, limited to 6 scholarships.

Right with you on the crazy comparisons. That's why I looked for matchups of similar quality teams. They are very tough to find, because generally good teams don't want to play good teams from other associations. The CCAA/PacWest/GSAC comparisons are probably the most consistent because they can easily play out of conference without traveling far.

Generally, D2 is about the same as NAIA *DI* with a slight edge to NAIA DI. Really, it comes down to the individual schools you're comparing. D2 has scholarship minimums, the NAIA does not. So there are some NAIA DIs that are terrible. St Louis College of Pharmacy is (predictably) not at all competitive. But at the top of the standings it's very good. Once you get down below elite levels of athletics, a scholarship is a scholarship and what makes the difference to the athlete is the attributes of the school, coaching chemistry, prospects of playing time, etc. Few players aspire when they are young to play for Findlay or Texas Wesleyan. They go because they have a chance to start rather than ride the pine at Colorado State, or because they like Texas Wesleyan's prelaw program, or because their family can come see them play at Findlay.

I'll give you one example you can probably relate to. At the NAIA tournament this year, one of the favorites was a team from Oskaloosa Iowa, William Penn. Their top player was one Torren Jones, formerly a starter at Fresno State (busted for controlled substances). They had another FSU player in PG Lionel Ellison, who transferred because he wanted playing time before he graduated. Jones averaged 10.5 points and 7.9 rebounds at FSU, 20.4 points and 12.3 boards at Penn. Ellison had minimal stats at FSU and 11 pts, 4.6 assists and 4.3 boards at Penn. They had 2 other guys that averaged double figures. Penn got beat in the semifinals. So they had a legit D1 forward and 3 other scorers and weren't good enough to win the championship.

(05-01-2017 10:34 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 07:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I do see some potentials for Oklahoma City U. rejoin the D1 ranks. They did not do bad at D1. The payouts for men's basketball in the tournaments are much more now than it was back in the 1970s and 80s when OKCU were D1. They might have been a potential MVC target today if they have stayed. I do see them as a better GAC member than Southern Nazarene or a NW Oklahoma State.

I can remember when OCU was Division I. That means I'm getting old. They struggled toward the end of their run, but they have a proud history. They played in a total of 11 NCAA D-I tournaments, and were founding members of the Trans America (now Atlantic Sun) and Midwestern City (now Horizon League) conferences. They struggled in their last years in D-I, but moved to the NAIA and became a beast. They've won 6 NAIA men's national championships, but none since 2008. They've won a ton of NAIA national championships in other sports, as well.

I'm not close to the situation, so I'm not familiar with their financials, but they didn't follow their local NAIA rivals (Southern Nazarene, Oklahoma Christian, Oklahoma Baptist) to D-II. I do know there was a move in the 2000's for them to move back to D-I and play in what is now Chesapeake Energy Arena, but the NBA came to town, those ideas went by the wayside, and OCU stayed in the NAIA. Their undergraduate enrollment is under 2000, but they have well-respected graduate programs in law and business that bump their total enrollment to over 3000 students. They would fit in the D-II Heartland Conference (no football), but they appear content in the NAIA. With the Thunder, OU, and OSU, there is simply no oxygen for another D-I program in the area.

(05-01-2017 07:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  In the future, I think Oklahoma Baptist could be a target for a D1 conference invite.

I'm an OBU grad. I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think anyone there is pointing to Division I in the future. We're in the third year of a three-year transition from NAIA to Division II. If the transition finishes well (and it has gone well so far), we'll be approved as full members of D-II this summer. This will be our 5th season back on the football field, having played two in NAIA and two in the D-II GAC. There are plans for a 7500 seat stadium, but fundraising is not complete. Basketball has struggled in the transition, after much success in the NAIA. We went from being an NAIA basketball school to being a D-II football school. :-) The other sports will be fine in D-II. We won three consecutive Learfield Directors' Cups in NAIA before leaving it. We're sponsoring 19 NCAA men's and women's sports (GAC, with swimming and lacrosse in the RMAC) at a school with around 1800 enrollment, spending just over $7,500,000 per year. We can be a good D-II program, but D-I would be a huge stretch. And that's ok. Not every school has to be big-time.

I picked OBU because Shawnee is growing big time. Last time I went by there was in 2007, and I am amazed how it have grown. Since I am a Norman High School grad of 1987, I have a thing for states that I lived in for the small schools to reach the big time. If it is Washington, Idaho, Colorado, California, Arizona, Oklahoma and Arkansas, plus schools from states that I loved to visit like Montana, Oregon, Nevada, Wyoming, Texas, New Mexico and Missouri. That is why I like to see schools like College of Idaho and Arizona Christian to move up beCAUSE of football.

(05-02-2017 12:35 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  I picked OBU because Shawnee is growing big time. Last time I went by there was in 2007, and I am amazed how it have grown. Since I am a Norman High School grad of 1987, I have a thing for states that I lived in for the small schools to reach the big time. If it is Washington, Idaho, Colorado, California, Arizona, Oklahoma and Arkansas, plus schools from states that I loved to visit like Montana, Oregon, Nevada, Wyoming, Texas, New Mexico and Missouri. That is why I like to see schools like College of Idaho and Arizona Christian to move up beCAUSE of football.

Shawnee has picked up a lot of commercial growth along the interstate. And OBU football has been supported well for a start-up NAIA/D-II program. The move from NAIA to D-II has been enough of a stretch. D-I would be a pipe dream. But I get it, because, for example, I see small programs qualify for the Big Dance and think, "could we do that?" If you're from a small school, that's natural. You think about the prestige of D-I, and want to see your school's name on places such as ESPN's ticker (for example). For most of us, it's not realistic, and D-I is not a good fit. And that's ok.

All we can expect is for a program is to be the best it can be with its available resources, while remaining true to the school's mission and core values (often easier said than done). If that's in D-I, great. If that's in D-II, D-III, NAIA, great.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/sport...order.html

Cetys University in Tijuana, Mexico is looking into joining the NCAA D2. They even have football.

(05-02-2017 01:29 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/sport...order.html

Cetys University in Tijuana, Mexico is looking into joining the NCAA D2. They even have football.

I saw that article. I'm not sure what to make of their $1.2 million budget. Certainly that's a fraction of what it would take to run a successful program in the US, but is it possible that costs are so much lower in Mexico? Their travel budget would balloon for sure.

That they could join the CCAA doesn't seem credible either. Those are all California public schools.

(05-02-2017 03:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 01:29 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/sport...order.html

Cetys University in Tijuana, Mexico is looking into joining the NCAA D2. They even have football.

I saw that article. I'm not sure what to make of their $1.2 million budget. Certainly that's a fraction of what it would take to run a successful program in the US, but is it possible that costs are so much lower in Mexico? Their travel budget would balloon for sure.

That they could join the CCAA doesn't seem credible either. Those are all California public schools.

yes, costs for scholarships, etc are lower in Mexico.

Do you realize how isolated from the rest of Mexico Tijuana is?

The head of the President's Council for the CCAA is a big supporter of this move. So it is credible. Whether she can convince the others remains to be seen, but they have support.

(05-02-2017 04:13 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 03:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 01:29 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/sport...order.html

Cetys University in Tijuana, Mexico is looking into joining the NCAA D2. They even have football.

I saw that article. I'm not sure what to make of their $1.2 million budget. Certainly that's a fraction of what it would take to run a successful program in the US, but is it possible that costs are so much lower in Mexico? Their travel budget would balloon for sure.

That they could join the CCAA doesn't seem credible either. Those are all California public schools.

yes, costs for scholarships, etc are lower in Mexico.

Do you realize how isolated from the rest of Mexico Tijuana is?

The head of the President's Council for the CCAA is a big supporter of this move. So it is credible. Whether she can convince the others remains to be seen, but they have support.

TJ will fill the SD market if UCSD moves to the WAC

Cal. State-Channel Island is also restarting their sports programs.

They seemed to be gunning for the CCAA in D2.

http://www.csuci.edu/athletics/

(04-25-2017 12:17 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  http://www.courierpress.com/story/sports...100788962/


Article about smoke that Southern Indiana in Evansville could be gunning for D1.

The OVC moved it's tournament from Nashville's Municipal Auditorium to Evansville's Ford Center for 2018. Nashville's Municipal, which hasn't been updated for some time but will be now, gives TN St and Belmont almost home court advantages. Perhaps inviting USI is in the OVC's interest now, as that would peak interest locally even though USI couldn't compete for years.

http://www.courierpress.com/story/sports...101215670/

Wow, that is a really nice arena. Too bad Evansville, Indiana (population 1xx,xxx, and roughly two hour drive to Louisville and St Louis) doesn't have a competitive team capable of filling it up.