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What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #21
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-18-2016 09:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 04:34 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 01:06 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Ah - another promotion/relegation proposal. Why won't people understand that there are a whole lot of critical factors outside of on-the-field performance that matter to who schools want to formally associate themselves with? As someone else has noted, we're much more likely to see the wealthiest soccer clubs break away than seeing any type of pro/rel setup at any level in the US. There's a certain point where clubs like Manchester United would want stop subsidizing the less valuable clubs.

This is just meant to spur a what if type of discussion. Perhaps it would be best left for the summer when no sports are going on.
I'm fully aware of the desire of hyper rich teams desire to break away.

You can formally associate yourself with another university in other ways than sports. There are plenty of Academic related, research related etc... groupings that rely on the merits of the research and it's graduates instead of sports.

We get one of these promotion/relegation discussions on this board every couple of months and it always devolves into some convoluted way to try to relegate schools like Wake Forest, Washington State and Rutgers while elevating Boise State and [insert favorite G5 school here].

I understand that there are other ways to formally associate schools outside of athletics, but the reality is that the athletic association carries disproportionate weight because it's the front porch of the university. The Ivy League is technically just an athletic league just like the MAC, but the Ivy League has become much more than that for academic and cultural reasons. It's a branding and identity marker that has value far beyond the athletic field. As a result, leagues like the Big Ten, SEC, Pac-12, etc. should always be free to use whatever athletic or non-athletic criteria that they want for their memberships. I guess I just have a visceral reaction to any league being forced to take anyone against their will. Schools should be free to associate with who they want for any reason (regardless of whether outsiders think that it's "fair").

I apologize if this has come up before. With all the talk about a possible reshuffle and P5 teams not living up to their hype. I was just thinking about another way things could be done. I don't wander into the realignment thread often. Only really stopping by since the B12 discussion.

As for schools associating themselves with other schools by the way of athletic conferences. I know many people that do not follow college sports and could not tell you which college is in which conference (with the exception of a handful of schools in the Ivy League).
Some of my neighbors don't know, or care what other schools ODU has associated it's self with via CUSA. The same with VT or UVA. All they know is University X is a good school either academically, athletically, both, or they simply have or have not heard of it.

As far as I've come to understand within my small, unscientific sample size... the average person doesn't know or care.

So, if that is the case. Why bother with sport conferences at all then?
09-20-2016 08:36 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-19-2016 06:08 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  you would see expenses go up dramatically and you would see live fan support crumble and you would see payouts to conferences decline dramatically as live broadcasting expenses went up and up

the end result would be the death of college sports at an even faster pace than now and eventually some groups of schools would get together and break away and get out from the stupidity of relegation

people that come up with this nonsense have no idea of the logistics of scheduling games, getting teams to and from games, having facilities for teams along with what many fans go through to make sure they can travel to see several games a year either at the home stajium or road games

I don't really think it's complete nonsense. Even if the logistics commands a lot of effort they should learn something from the other leagues that schedule their following seasons games after the season is done.
09-20-2016 08:39 PM
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Post: #23
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-20-2016 08:36 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 09:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 04:34 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 01:06 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Ah - another promotion/relegation proposal. Why won't people understand that there are a whole lot of critical factors outside of on-the-field performance that matter to who schools want to formally associate themselves with? As someone else has noted, we're much more likely to see the wealthiest soccer clubs break away than seeing any type of pro/rel setup at any level in the US. There's a certain point where clubs like Manchester United would want stop subsidizing the less valuable clubs.

This is just meant to spur a what if type of discussion. Perhaps it would be best left for the summer when no sports are going on.
I'm fully aware of the desire of hyper rich teams desire to break away.

You can formally associate yourself with another university in other ways than sports. There are plenty of Academic related, research related etc... groupings that rely on the merits of the research and it's graduates instead of sports.

We get one of these promotion/relegation discussions on this board every couple of months and it always devolves into some convoluted way to try to relegate schools like Wake Forest, Washington State and Rutgers while elevating Boise State and [insert favorite G5 school here].

I understand that there are other ways to formally associate schools outside of athletics, but the reality is that the athletic association carries disproportionate weight because it's the front porch of the university. The Ivy League is technically just an athletic league just like the MAC, but the Ivy League has become much more than that for academic and cultural reasons. It's a branding and identity marker that has value far beyond the athletic field. As a result, leagues like the Big Ten, SEC, Pac-12, etc. should always be free to use whatever athletic or non-athletic criteria that they want for their memberships. I guess I just have a visceral reaction to any league being forced to take anyone against their will. Schools should be free to associate with who they want for any reason (regardless of whether outsiders think that it's "fair").

I apologize if this has come up before. With all the talk about a possible reshuffle and P5 teams not living up to their hype. I was just thinking about another way things could be done. I don't wander into the realignment thread often. Only really stopping by since the B12 discussion.

As for schools associating themselves with other schools by the way of athletic conferences. I know many people that do not follow college sports and could not tell you which college is in which conference (with the exception of a handful of schools in the Ivy League).
Some of my neighbors don't know, or care what other schools ODU has associated it's self with via CUSA. The same with VT or UVA. All they know is University X is a good school either academically, athletically, both, or they simply have or have not heard of it.

As far as I've come to understand within my small, unscientific sample size... the average person doesn't know or care.

So, if that is the case. Why bother with sport conferences at all then?

Relegation threads are like arms flapping in the wind. Flap all you want and you are not going to change a thing. Conferences are not based on a single sport, so there is no way schools or conferences will agree to realignment based on a single sport's standings. ENOUGH ALREADY!
09-20-2016 08:46 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
The conferences would look like the Euro Soccer Model.
Cheers!
09-20-2016 09:11 PM
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Post: #25
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-20-2016 08:36 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  As for schools associating themselves with other schools by the way of athletic conferences. I know many people that do not follow college sports and could not tell you which college is in which conference (with the exception of a handful of schools in the Ivy League).
Some of my neighbors don't know, or care what other schools ODU has associated it's self with via CUSA. The same with VT or UVA. All they know is University X is a good school either academically, athletically, both, or they simply have or have not heard of it.

As far as I've come to understand within my small, unscientific sample size... the average person doesn't know or care.

Same here: I've met MANY Big 10 fans who think Big 10 means ANY Power 5 school (for example, Michigan vs Alabama is a good match-up because Alabama is a Big 10 school and Central Florida isn't
09-20-2016 11:34 PM
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RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-18-2016 11:47 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Don't know, don't care.

+3 04-cheers
09-20-2016 11:45 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-20-2016 11:34 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(09-20-2016 08:36 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  As for schools associating themselves with other schools by the way of athletic conferences. I know many people that do not follow college sports and could not tell you which college is in which conference (with the exception of a handful of schools in the Ivy League).
Some of my neighbors don't know, or care what other schools ODU has associated it's self with via CUSA. The same with VT or UVA. All they know is University X is a good school either academically, athletically, both, or they simply have or have not heard of it.

As far as I've come to understand within my small, unscientific sample size... the average person doesn't know or care.

Same here: I've met MANY Big 10 fans who think Big 10 means ANY Power 5 school (for example, Michigan vs Alabama is a good match-up because Alabama is a Big 10 school and Central Florida isn't

We can play the personal anecdote game all day. I personally know MANY Big Ten fans that know each and every member of each conference intuitively. There have been news articles in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times about education and have nothing to do with sports that refer to "Big Ten schools" as a group in the same manner that they refer to "Ivy League schools" and how companies recruit "Big Ten grads" (once again nothing to do with sports). Nebraska has a campaign for recruiting general students that tout receiving a "Big Ten education" and has no reference at all to athletics.

This isn't to say that my anecdotes are better than your anecdotes - the point is they're *only* anecdotes. What ultimately matters is that school leaders should be free to choose to associate themselves based on whatever criteria that they deem to be important. If they only want members that simply had the best football record last year, then they can choose to do that. If they want the largest TV markets possible, then they can choose to do that. If they want to be complete academic snobs, then they can choose to do that. What I can't stand is the notion that some system needs to be *forced* upon these schools and conferences. The leagues that have built-up brand value and certain standards to protect (like the Big Ten and SEC) can and should be extremely picky since the proof is in the pudding as to how they accumulated their power in the first place. Free market autonomy is what's "fair" to me as opposed to a year-by-year fluctuation of leagues that's forced upon others based on short-term win-loss records (which translates horribly in the college context in practicality because of the short time that players actually play in college compared to pro soccer, anyway).

I get it - the people advocating the pro/rel system are generally fans of schools that are on the outside looking in. However, people keep expecting the snobbiest group of people in America (university presidents) to suddenly not be snobby and just look at last week's football results to choose who they want to associate themselves with in the single largest front porch branding item (its athletic conference) that schools have. That isn't how it has ever been, that isn't how it is now, and that isn't how it will ever be. If a school wants to get into a P5 conference, either play the "realignment game" of improving academic prestige, TV value and overall branding that P5 leagues care about or stop complaining about the game if the school doesn't want to work on those items. Trying to complain that those off-the-field items shouldn't be important will get you absolutely nowhere. The P5 conferences can and should be extremely picky on whatever off-the-field criteria that they believe is important.
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2016 08:47 AM by Frank the Tank.)
09-21-2016 08:45 AM
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BewareThePhog Online
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Post: #28
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
The Euro Model is interesting, but it really isn't applicable to NCAA conference affiliation. Another aspect that hasn't been mentioned yet in this iteration of promotion/relegation discussion is related to the fact that there are at least 2 major sports to consider. Certainly at this time Kansas would be major relegation bait in football - but conversely, we'd be in the "Premier League" in Men's basketball. That's just looking at the two biggest sports - would you have promotion/relegation rankings (and thus affiliations with different schools) across all sports?
09-21-2016 12:30 PM
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Post: #29
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-20-2016 03:31 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-19-2016 11:49 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  or here's an idea, lose the P5/G5 label and this eliminate the 80/20 rev split. problem solved.

You can remove any labels you want the revenue gap is always going to be there because while your program was sitting back chilling other programs were developing theirs.

just as there is rev differences in the NFL. Dallas brings in more than Jacksonville, etc. The difference is the NFL uses equal league revenue sharing and a salary cap to ensure that all members of the league have a viable chance to compete. This doesn't keep the rich from getting rich, it just keeps them from rigging the system in their favor.

and yeah, the reason there are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio but only one of them is in a P5 conference is because the others just didn't try hard enough. Miami(OH) is 23rd in lifetime winning % and known as the Cradle of Coaches for all of the legendary coaches that came from there (Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Parseghian, Schembechler, etc) but they're not in the B1G because they didn't try hard enough, not because Ohio State wouldn't allow it. sure. 01-wingedeagle
09-22-2016 02:18 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #30
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-22-2016 02:18 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  
(09-20-2016 03:31 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-19-2016 11:49 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  or here's an idea, lose the P5/G5 label and this eliminate the 80/20 rev split. problem solved.

You can remove any labels you want the revenue gap is always going to be there because while your program was sitting back chilling other programs were developing theirs.

just as there is rev differences in the NFL. Dallas brings in more than Jacksonville, etc. The difference is the NFL uses equal league revenue sharing and a salary cap to ensure that all members of the league have a viable chance to compete. This doesn't keep the rich from getting rich, it just keeps them from rigging the system in their favor.

and yeah, the reason there are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio but only one of them is in a P5 conference is because the others just didn't try hard enough. Miami(OH) is 23rd in lifetime winning % and known as the Cradle of Coaches for all of the legendary coaches that came from there (Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Parseghian, Schembechler, etc) but they're not in the B1G because they didn't try hard enough, not because Ohio State wouldn't allow it. sure. 01-wingedeagle

The MAC doesn't have equal revenue sharing? I mean that's who you would have to compare the NFL to because like the NFL the MAC is who negotiates your media rights, etc like the NFL does for their members. The NCAA used to handle the TV rights and distribute the revenue equally but the US judicial system said that wasn't legal wy back in the early 1980's and the rights reverted back to the schools, who then granted the conferences the ability to negotiate on their behalf.


LOL The same old argument......"But the big meanie wouldn't let us grow!!" I'm just glad that when South Carolina was trying to cripple us way back when that Clemson had leaders who refused to let them dictate the terms to which we would grow our program. That our leaders created not just a booster club in IPTAY, but the model booster club that has been studied by organizations from the high school to the professional level because of our success. Oh and they created this booster club during the Great Depression when nobody had much of a disposable income and they made it work. It was probably harder than sitting back and saying "Woe is me" like the folks in Ohio obviously did.
09-22-2016 06:10 AM
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RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-20-2016 08:39 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(09-19-2016 06:08 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  you would see expenses go up dramatically and you would see live fan support crumble and you would see payouts to conferences decline dramatically as live broadcasting expenses went up and up

the end result would be the death of college sports at an even faster pace than now and eventually some groups of schools would get together and break away and get out from the stupidity of relegation

people that come up with this nonsense have no idea of the logistics of scheduling games, getting teams to and from games, having facilities for teams along with what many fans go through to make sure they can travel to see several games a year either at the home stajium or road games

I don't really think it's complete nonsense. Even if the logistics commands a lot of effort they should learn something from the other leagues that schedule their following seasons games after the season is done.

yea they can learn how to spend a ton of cash to lock in hotel rooms they do not need and how to spend lots more cash on last minute travel and how to take a cut in media payouts to cover the cost of the media having to make last minute plans to get to games to cover them instead of having a year or more worth of notice to book travel and rooms

then they can learn that college sports that rely on a lot of fans from out of town traveling to small markets will go broke when their fans instead have to wait until 6 months before games are scheduled to try and make plans and try and find out where their team will be playing their games and they will decide that figuring out travel plans for away games is simply no longer worth it any more

you don't seem to understand the aspects of LONG TERM planning that goes into scheduling games and making travel plans for the teams and the media

take the NFL for existence right now the NFL has hotel rooms locked in with deposits in every city that has a team for all the dates possible that there could be a playoff game

as teams become playoff ineligible the NFL cancels those rooms, but they get back only a small portion of anything at all of those deposits and as the dates get closer and closer to then the rooms are needed (or not needed) they get back pretty much nothing from those deposits because it is too late for the hotels to re-book those rooms for other events

the media companies also do the same for their camera crews and commentators and other production staff

they also book other venues to have media events like convention space and meeting spaces

when January comes and the NCAA season is over for football you don't just tell a program like WSU or Oregon State "hey you will be playing in the MWC this next season" so all those hotel rooms you had deposits on in all the places you were going to be playing PAC 12 games well cancel those and start trying to find a place for 150+ people to stay in whatever MWC cities you are now playing games

and PS be sure and let your fans know you will not be coming to any of those PAC 12 games they need to find some rooms in MWC cities and make some travel plans for those as well

yea that will be really popular and easy to accomplish and come with little to no cost 01-wingedeagle
09-22-2016 06:59 AM
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Post: #32
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-22-2016 06:10 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-22-2016 02:18 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  
(09-20-2016 03:31 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-19-2016 11:49 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  or here's an idea, lose the P5/G5 label and this eliminate the 80/20 rev split. problem solved.

You can remove any labels you want the revenue gap is always going to be there because while your program was sitting back chilling other programs were developing theirs.

just as there is rev differences in the NFL. Dallas brings in more than Jacksonville, etc. The difference is the NFL uses equal league revenue sharing and a salary cap to ensure that all members of the league have a viable chance to compete. This doesn't keep the rich from getting rich, it just keeps them from rigging the system in their favor.

and yeah, the reason there are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio but only one of them is in a P5 conference is because the others just didn't try hard enough. Miami(OH) is 23rd in lifetime winning % and known as the Cradle of Coaches for all of the legendary coaches that came from there (Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Parseghian, Schembechler, etc) but they're not in the B1G because they didn't try hard enough, not because Ohio State wouldn't allow it. sure. 01-wingedeagle

The MAC doesn't have equal revenue sharing? I mean that's who you would have to compare the NFL to because like the NFL the MAC is who negotiates your media rights, etc like the NFL does for their members. The NCAA used to handle the TV rights and distribute the revenue equally but the US judicial system said that wasn't legal wy back in the early 1980's and the rights reverted back to the schools, who then granted the conferences the ability to negotiate on their behalf.


LOL The same old argument......"But the big meanie wouldn't let us grow!!" I'm just glad that when South Carolina was trying to cripple us way back when that Clemson had leaders who refused to let them dictate the terms to which we would grow our program. That our leaders created not just a booster club in IPTAY, but the model booster club that has been studied by organizations from the high school to the professional level because of our success. Oh and they created this booster club during the Great Depression when nobody had much of a disposable income and they made it work. It was probably harder than sitting back and saying "Woe is me" like the folks in Ohio obviously did.

you seem to struggle with the difference between a conference and a league. FBS is a league. NFL is a league. MAC is a conference. NFL doesn't have conferences, per se, but it does have divisions. The accurate analogy you're looking for is imagine if the NFL shared its league revenue by giving 80% to the NFC and 20% to the AFC. I'm not talking about conference tv contracts, I'm talking about the CFP contract that is on pace to pay the P5 +$1 billion MORE than the G5 or the 12yr agreement.

lol at Clemson fan trying to preach about how you "earned it" and those in the G5 are just lazy wellfare queens. I'm not going to go into a century of politics in Ohio with you but just know that your assumptions are silly and wrong.
09-22-2016 09:32 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #33
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
Where exactly is the NCAA going to get this money that you feel Ohio deserves as welfare because it's fanbase is too pathetic to support their own program? The NCAA:

A. Doesn't get television revenue, the conferences do
B. Doesn't get ticket revenue, the schools do

So where exactly is the money going to come from?

And what kind of difference do you think it's going to make? Ohio's athletic budget is between $25-30 million, about half of that student fees. IPTAY, Clemson's booster club, brings in almost twice that in just revenue each year. That;s what happens when your fanbase supports your school.

And trust me I know exactly how politics work and that's the biggest reason why Clemson's BOT is split to where the portion appointed by the state government is the minority and the independent part that appoints their own successors is the majority. Without that Clemson would be in the same boat as The Citadel and Winthrop.....small regional school that pose no real threat to Columbia.
09-22-2016 10:13 PM
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Post: #34
RE: What would the conferences look like if NCCAF followed the Euro Soccer Model?
(09-18-2016 01:06 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Ah - another promotion/relegation proposal. Why won't people understand that there are a whole lot of critical factors outside of on-the-field performance that matter to who schools want to formally associate themselves with? As someone else has noted, we're much more likely to see the wealthiest soccer clubs break away than seeing any type of pro/rel setup at any level in the US. There's a certain point where clubs like Manchester United would want stop subsidizing the less valuable clubs.

And never mind that a troubling number of clubs go bankrupt when relegated, that just makes it all the more cool for fans doesn't it.
09-22-2016 11:27 PM
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