Someone mentioned in another post that Air Force made a presentation to the B12 (no link provided). If AF was accepted, would this put pressure on Navy to try and get in a P5 conference? Navy seems content to have football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot League, but could they have their academy rival in a P5 conference when they are in a G5?

(09-07-2016 09:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Someone mentioned in another post that Air Force made a presentation to the B12 (no link provided). If AF was accepted, would this put pressure on Navy to try and get in a P5 conference? Navy seems content to have football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot League, but could they have their academy rival in a P5 conference when they are in a G5?

This is a complicated topic but I'll try to be concise. An important aspect to remember is that Navy wasn't looking to join a conference. Independence worked well for us.

But with conference expansion came the desire for those conferences to get the best TV contract they could. That also involved some conferences considering 9 conference games. That meant fewer BCS/P5 teams willing to play a lose-lose proposition team like Navy (we know we are not Notre Dame).

Add to that Navy's resurgence. When we sucked, plenty of teams were willing to play us. But with Navy good, why would an AD want to play Navy? Navy's AD mentioned several times about the challenge it was to schedule 12 games/year. BYU's AD has made similar comments since they went independent.

So Navy agrees to join the Big East. The BE becomes the AAC. All in all, we're still happy with where we are but things didn't work out quite as planned.

Air Force is not going to be invited to the B12. School is too small. Small stadium attendance. Small TV audience (despite being nation wide). Small alumni base. They are the 3rd team in Colorado in terms of fan base. Other than a nice story, no real reason at all for B12 to invite them over BYU, Houston, CSU, Memphis, USF, or UCF.

But for the sake of your question, let's assume they are invited to B12. IMHO Navy doesn't care. We have taken a very methodical approach that has paid off well for us. The only "prestige" is how we do head to head. Army is #1 rival. Notre Dame game is more important to the program than Air Force. If AF joined the B12, would it just be football or all sports? AF struggles in MWC competition in most sports so this is not a minor decision. AF has no option like Army & Navy have with the Patriot League. So this is a complicated proposal that involves much more than just the football team.

Navy knows who we are & the purpose of the football program. Which is a separate conversation.

Navy, Army, Air Force will always attract the same type of athlete regardless of what conference they play in. I guess in a P5 conference they could improve facilities with the additional monies but it wouldn't affect recruiting to a huge degree.

(09-07-2016 10:24 PM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(09-07-2016 09:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Someone mentioned in another post that Air Force made a presentation to the B12 (no link provided). If AF was accepted, would this put pressure on Navy to try and get in a P5 conference? Navy seems content to have football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot League, but could they have their academy rival in a P5 conference when they are in a G5?

This is a complicated topic but I'll try to be concise. An important aspect to remember is that Navy wasn't looking to join a conference. Independence worked well for us.

But with conference expansion came the desire for those conferences to get the best TV contract they could. That also involved some conferences considering 9 conference games. That meant fewer BCS/P5 teams willing to play a lose-lose proposition team like Navy (we know we are not Notre Dame).

Add to that Navy's resurgence. When we sucked, plenty of teams were willing to play us. But with Navy good, why would an AD want to play Navy? Navy's AD mentioned several times about the challenge it was to schedule 12 games/year. BYU's AD has made similar comments since they went independent.

So Navy agrees to join the Big East. The BE becomes the AAC. All in all, we're still happy with where we are but things didn't work out quite as planned.

Air Force is not going to be invited to the B12. School is too small. Small stadium attendance. Small TV audience (despite being nation wide). Small alumni base. They are the 3rd team in Colorado in terms of fan base. Other than a nice story, no real reason at all for B12 to invite them over BYU, Houston, CSU, Memphis, USF, or UCF.

But for the sake of your question, let's assume they are invited to B12. IMHO Navy doesn't care. We have taken a very methodical approach that has paid off well for us. The only "prestige" is how we do head to head. Army is #1 rival. Notre Dame game is more important to the program than Air Force. If AF joined the B12, would it just be football or all sports? AF struggles in MWC competition in most sports so this is not a minor decision. AF has no option like Army & Navy have with the Patriot League. So this is a complicated proposal that involves much more than just the football team.

Navy knows who we are & the purpose of the football program. Which is a separate conversation.

I agree on all points, but if Air Force were invited and joined the Big 12 and continued to run an offense someone similar to Navy's and Army's offenses, then the sailors and soldiers could have a serious problem competing for the limited number of football players who are service academy inclined, academically eligible and excel in the option.

(09-07-2016 10:46 PM)Lurker Above Wrote:  I agree on all points, but if Air Force were invited and joined the Big 12 and continued to run an offense someone similar to Navy's and Army's offenses, then the sailors and soldiers could have a serious problem competing for the limited number of football players who are service academy inclined, academically eligible and excel in the option.

Perhaps, but one has to think with the enlistment commitment post-graduation that career tract is going to be a much bigger factor in a commitment than conference affiliation. Hard to get assigned to an airborne division or submarine if you go to the AFA.

(09-07-2016 10:24 PM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(09-07-2016 09:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Someone mentioned in another post that Air Force made a presentation to the B12 (no link provided). If AF was accepted, would this put pressure on Navy to try and get in a P5 conference? Navy seems content to have football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot League, but could they have their academy rival in a P5 conference when they are in a G5?

This is a complicated topic but I'll try to be concise. An important aspect to remember is that Navy wasn't looking to join a conference. Independence worked well for us.

But with conference expansion came the desire for those conferences to get the best TV contract they could. That also involved some conferences considering 9 conference games. That meant fewer BCS/P5 teams willing to play a lose-lose proposition team like Navy (we know we are not Notre Dame).

Add to that Navy's resurgence. When we sucked, plenty of teams were willing to play us. But with Navy good, why would an AD want to play Navy? Navy's AD mentioned several times about the challenge it was to schedule 12 games/year. BYU's AD has made similar comments since they went independent.

So Navy agrees to join the Big East. The BE becomes the AAC. All in all, we're still happy with where we are but things didn't work out quite as planned.

Air Force is not going to be invited to the B12. School is too small. Small stadium attendance. Small TV audience (despite being nation wide). Small alumni base. They are the 3rd team in Colorado in terms of fan base. Other than a nice story, no real reason at all for B12 to invite them over BYU, Houston, CSU, Memphis, USF, or UCF.

But for the sake of your question, let's assume they are invited to B12. IMHO Navy doesn't care. We have taken a very methodical approach that has paid off well for us. The only "prestige" is how we do head to head. Army is #1 rival. Notre Dame game is more important to the program than Air Force. If AF joined the B12, would it just be football or all sports? AF struggles in MWC competition in most sports so this is not a minor decision. AF has no option like Army & Navy have with the Patriot League. So this is a complicated proposal that involves much more than just the football team.

Navy knows who we are & the purpose of the football program. Which is a separate conversation.

Not that it matters a great deal but the AFA has a 46k stadium and for the last 3 years (easiest ncaa look up) they have averaged better attendance than CSU. I don't believe they would be invited all sports and maybe that will be a deal breaker but imho they have a better football image nationally than CSU. I can't see why Navy did not apply to the Big 12 as soon as they heard that the AFA did. Seems to me that would be a great combo.

Over on another board, there's an article featuring Navy's AD. It sounds like they committed to the AAC, and would likely stay there even if it lost 2+ members. Losing one won't likely make a dent, and football-only membership in the B12 doesn't sound appealing to them, according to the AD.

I think Navy's on course for an ACC ND-type arrangement, but that's just me. Of course, it wouldn't hurt anyone in the ACC if they'd tap into Texas for anyone.

(09-07-2016 10:24 PM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(09-07-2016 09:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Someone mentioned in another post that Air Force made a presentation to the B12 (no link provided). If AF was accepted, would this put pressure on Navy to try and get in a P5 conference? Navy seems content to have football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot League, but could they have their academy rival in a P5 conference when they are in a G5?

This is a complicated topic but I'll try to be concise. An important aspect to remember is that Navy wasn't looking to join a conference. Independence worked well for us.

But with conference expansion came the desire for those conferences to get the best TV contract they could. That also involved some conferences considering 9 conference games. That meant fewer BCS/P5 teams willing to play a lose-lose proposition team like Navy (we know we are not Notre Dame).

Add to that Navy's resurgence. When we sucked, plenty of teams were willing to play us. But with Navy good, why would an AD want to play Navy? Navy's AD mentioned several times about the challenge it was to schedule 12 games/year. BYU's AD has made similar comments since they went independent.

So Navy agrees to join the Big East. The BE becomes the AAC. All in all, we're still happy with where we are but things didn't work out quite as planned.

Air Force is not going to be invited to the B12. School is too small. Small stadium attendance. Small TV audience (despite being nation wide). Small alumni base. They are the 3rd team in Colorado in terms of fan base. Other than a nice story, no real reason at all for B12 to invite them over BYU, Houston, CSU, Memphis, USF, or UCF.

But for the sake of your question, let's assume they are invited to B12. IMHO Navy doesn't care. We have taken a very methodical approach that has paid off well for us. The only "prestige" is how we do head to head. Army is #1 rival. Notre Dame game is more important to the program than Air Force. If AF joined the B12, would it just be football or all sports? AF struggles in MWC competition in most sports so this is not a minor decision. AF has no option like Army & Navy have with the Patriot League. So this is a complicated proposal that involves much more than just the football team.

Navy knows who we are & the purpose of the football program. Which is a separate conversation.

BUT there were indications the Big12 apparently wanted Air Force the last time they added teams. Also, I do not a agree with everything you say negatively about AFA, but I will not debate that with you. I would not make a flat out statement that the AFA is not going to be invited to the Big12. Not real likely, but it could happen.

Not that it matters a great deal but the AFA has a 46k stadium and for the last 3 years (easiest ncaa look up) they have averaged better attendance than CSU. I don't believe they would be invited all sports and maybe that will be a deal breaker but imho they have a better football image nationally than CSU. I can't see why Navy did not apply to the Big 12 as soon as they heard that the AFA did. Seems to me that would be a great combo.
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Well said, except I believe their stadium capacity is 53,000.

(09-07-2016 10:24 PM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(09-07-2016 09:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Someone mentioned in another post that Air Force made a presentation to the B12 (no link provided). If AF was accepted, would this put pressure on Navy to try and get in a P5 conference? Navy seems content to have football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot League, but could they have their academy rival in a P5 conference when they are in a G5?

This is a complicated topic but I'll try to be concise. An important aspect to remember is that Navy wasn't looking to join a conference. Independence worked well for us.

But with conference expansion came the desire for those conferences to get the best TV contract they could. That also involved some conferences considering 9 conference games. That meant fewer BCS/P5 teams willing to play a lose-lose proposition team like Navy (we know we are not Notre Dame).

Add to that Navy's resurgence. When we sucked, plenty of teams were willing to play us. But with Navy good, why would an AD want to play Navy? Navy's AD mentioned several times about the challenge it was to schedule 12 games/year. BYU's AD has made similar comments since they went independent.

So Navy agrees to join the Big East. The BE becomes the AAC. All in all, we're still happy with where we are but things didn't work out quite as planned.

Air Force is not going to be invited to the B12. School is too small. Small stadium attendance. Small TV audience (despite being nation wide). Small alumni base. They are the 3rd team in Colorado in terms of fan base. Other than a nice story, no real reason at all for B12 to invite them over BYU, Houston, CSU, Memphis, USF, or UCF.

But for the sake of your question, let's assume they are invited to B12. IMHO Navy doesn't care. We have taken a very methodical approach that has paid off well for us. The only "prestige" is how we do head to head. Army is #1 rival. Notre Dame game is more important to the program than Air Force. If AF joined the B12, would it just be football or all sports? AF struggles in MWC competition in most sports so this is not a minor decision. AF has no option like Army & Navy have with the Patriot League. So this is a complicated proposal that involves much more than just the football team.

Navy knows who we are & the purpose of the football program. Which is a separate conversation.

Thanks! Based on your posts I'm beginning to think you might be the Navy AD!

I know AF to the B12 is a remote possibility. But... as others have mentioned, there is a limited number of recruits who are willing to make the commitment the academies require. If the AFA is in what is perceived to be a more prestigious conference, gets more air time (if if they are getting whacked), it seems the advantage shifts to AFA. Even if the AFA doesn't get on TV that much, every B12 is a commercial, of sorts, for them.

You mentioned in the other thread that the AFA gets a huge subsidy from the government while Navy does not. Being in the B12 would be a huge influx of cash, even if only for football. I don't know if their subsidy would be reduced but again, it seems the advantage shifts to AFA.

The are options for AF Olympic sports if necessary. The WAC and WCC come to mind. The Summit and MVC seem like possibles.

no

Last three years, AFA has averaged 30,831 attendance.

Cincinnati averaged 31,828, UConn averaged 31,591, Houston averaged 29,105, and CSU averaged 22,242.

Falcon stadium currently has 46,692 capacity. It's slightly larger than TCU and Baylor and slightly smaller than Kansas. It is 6K+ larger than Cincinnati, UConn, Houston, and the new CSU stadium.

Air Force is a legitimate Big 12 candidate.

(09-08-2016 09:04 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  Not that it matters a great deal but the AFA has a 46k stadium and for the last 3 years (easiest ncaa look up) they have averaged better attendance than CSU. I don't believe they would be invited all sports and maybe that will be a deal breaker but imho they have a better football image nationally than CSU. I can't see why Navy did not apply to the Big 12 as soon as they heard that the AFA did. Seems to me that would be a great combo.

Well said, except I believe their stadium capacity is 53,000.
[/quote]

It was prior to 2005 but renovation lowered capacity to about 46k.

I've long thought that Navy would make an excellent Big 12 candidate. It's closer to WVU than Cincinnati and has a national brand on the East Coast. It would bring the TV partners the Army-Navy game and Notre Dame-Navy games every other year.

Houston, BYU, Navy, and Air Force would be a very solid move.

I know Navy has never been reported as a candidate, but is it possible that they actually are? Is Navy subject to records requests? We know that Navy can keep a secret.

Navy remaining in the AAC is great for the conference if it loses 1-2 members. One has to think that if Houston departs, Rice is a lock. Navy wants to play in Texas every year, hence the reason they are in the West. Plus, Tulane, SMU, and Tulsa form a voting block and are peer institutions.

Who replaces Cincinnati in the East is more complicated. The division would be:

UConn
Temple
ECU
UCF
USF

Old Dominion fits nicely in there, but does that crowd the mid-Atlantic region too much for ECU and Temple's (and to a lesser extent Navy) liking? If UConn wants UMass, I have to imagine the Minutemen would be a lock as not to drive UConn out of the league for the Big East.

(09-08-2016 09:28 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  

(09-08-2016 09:04 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  Not that it matters a great deal but the AFA has a 46k stadium and for the last 3 years (easiest ncaa look up) they have averaged better attendance than CSU. I don't believe they would be invited all sports and maybe that will be a deal breaker but imho they have a better football image nationally than CSU. I can't see why Navy did not apply to the Big 12 as soon as they heard that the AFA did. Seems to me that would be a great combo.

Well said, except I believe their stadium capacity is 53,000.

It was prior to 2005 but renovation lowered capacity to about 46k.
[/quote]

Thanks. I was not aware of the downsizing.

(09-08-2016 10:13 AM)esayem Wrote:  Navy remaining in the AAC is great for the conference if it loses 1-2 members. One has to think that if Houston departs, Rice is a lock. Navy wants to play in Texas every year, hence the reason they are in the West. Plus, Tulane, SMU, and Tulsa form a voting block and are peer institutions.

Who replaces Cincinnati in the East is more complicated. The division would be:

UConn
Temple
ECU
UCF
USF

Old Dominion fits nicely in there, but does that crowd the mid-Atlantic region too much for ECU and Temple's (and to a lesser extent Navy) liking? If UConn wants UMass, I have to imagine the Minutemen would be a lock as not to drive UConn out of the league for the Big East.

If the AAC were to lose two members, they would most likely be Houston and Cincinnati. There is no longer a compelling reason for the AAC to replace them, and there could be strong arguments for staying at 10 members (9 all sports).

I'm not sure how strongly Navy feels about its desire to play in Texas on a regular basis. The only thing I recall is that they preferred to be assigned to the western division to broaden their exposure outside the east coast. That was based on the AAC membership as it existed at the time. They may feel differently now, or not.

I doubt adding UMass would be important for UConn. They could easily schedule them OOC if they want. What the Huskies would need is enough scheduling flexibility to enable them to schedule major hoops brands like Syracuse, Duke, Kansas, etc. OOC to keep them in the national conversation. A 16 game league schedule could help with that, and it would matter if that's a full double round robin or if it's part of a two division schedule.