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yeah ESSS, I've had the upper level courses in Economics and lots of quantitative and lots of political science.

But when you say government workers have no constraints of money time or resources, dude, you have to be kidding.

Look at the schools. They are models of doing less with more. In Michigan for 20 years they have been told they are bad, waste and fraud, all we need is charter schools, on-line instruction, less State funding, horrible teacher unions, etc. School boards are constantly trying to do more with less. And now, surprise, many are struggling. What did the Michigan legislature expect? They got what they wanted, which was bad schools. Self fulfilling thing, eh?

My experience is almost all government workers are pretty good people, doing good work. That's not what I find in the private sector. Crazy charges at the hospital, $35.00 for an aspirin tablet, labs that they charge $80 for the automated thing that costs a couple bucks to do. Doctors office 3 girls at the front desk trying to stay awake and asking you the same 5 questions every time you come in, then you sit in the waiting room for 45 minutes while somebody eats a donut or whatever they are doing back there.

What's the last time you got a fair deal on a car repair? 1970? I had a spring break on my Mountaineer, the local Ford dealer called me with this crazy $4700 estimate. I had it towed to the local hillbilly garage and the guy put in a new spring for $180.00. Was that Ford garage an example of fabulous private enterprise, or were they trying like heck to rip me off?

People have been saying government is bad for so long they are starting to actually believe it. Its not a blanket yes on that.

Quote:But when you say government workers have no constraints of money time or resources, dude, you have to be kidding.

I couldn't be more serious

Mosey on down to the DMV. Have you ever tried to deal with the IRS? Do you know anything about the VA Healthcare System? Are you getting your money's worth from the Department of Education? The Military?

Our Federal Government is nearly 20 trillion dollars in debt. This does not include the unfunded liabilities of Medicare and Social Security.

Do you have ANY idea how much money that is?

What business (save those given special treatment, monopoly status, and/or largess from the government) could function that way and continue to exist?

The answer regarding how to deal with this problem (from both major parties)? Tax more, and spend more.

Quote:My experience is almost all government workers are pretty good people

My critique of the system has nothing to do with what type of people work in that system.

Quote:Crazy charges at the hospital, $35.00 for an aspirin tablet, labs that they charge $80 for the automated thing that costs a couple bucks to do.

You apparently have no idea why these types of things occur, do you?

For a more accurate assessment/comparison you would need to look to the area of medicine where the government is least involved, where people pay for services with their own money. Cosmetic surgery. Compare and contrast what has happened to quality and costs in this field over the past 10-20 years. Then compare this to what has happened in other areas of medicine where the government is more involved, and where money is spent for medical services that doesn't come out of patient's pockets.

For a more recent example of government involvement leading to increased healthcare costs, consider the following:

Epipen fiasco

Quote:What's the last time you got a fair deal on a car repair?

LOL!!! A "fair deal" is what YOU are willing to pay for your repair.

Quote:Was that Ford garage an example of fabulous private enterprise, or were they trying like heck to rip me off?

Yes. It was a PERFECT example of the efficiencies produced by private enterprise. Thank you for providing this illustration!!! The competition (the guy you called a hillbilly) did a better job, for a lower price. And you decided to use him :)

The only meaningful lesson to learn from your experience is that you were (and are) free to go back to that Ford dealer, or not. Did you go back?

Yeah, I know all the arguments.

Yeah I do have an idea of what 20 trillion is, although admittedly that level of thinking is outside my practical realm or experience. It is important to look at debt as a ratio of GDP.

Yes, I do know why hospitals set up their pricing structures the way they do. But in contrast, when I use my state subsidized teacher based BCBS, I know the hospital is tacking on costs from other areas to the pricing structure and my teacher insurance is paying for some of the expenses they cannot get from others. But please don't then say the teachers are greedy with their insurance demands. It is robbing Peter to pay Paul and everybody knows it.

When we talk about the health care mess, we shouldn't pretend all the problem is government. It's not like the health system and the insurance companies and the drug companies and the malpractice attorneys are not involved as well.

Yes, I did do the right thing to shop carefully for my car repair, but not all little old ladies would do that. My actions were correct, but the dealership had a choice and their choice did not reflect well on their ethics in my opinion.

Capitalism is a good thing in my opinion. That's why I support Hillary. She's totally imbedded in that culture.

You seem to be changing the focus of the discussion.

This was your initial statement:

Quote:I like big government. Government I so much more efficient than private business.

You've not provided any substantive arguments or information in support of this position.

Do you plan to?

What is the best example of "government efficiency" (is that an oxymoron?) that you can think of?

I think there are certain things a government performs better than the private sector.

Police work to name one. They're more aligned with the values of the society than say, private guards or vigilantes tend to be. Another is fire.

A third I'd say is trash collecting, utilities management such as water and the oversight of power, cable, and gas right of ways.

I live in a county where all of the above is outsourced. It's a damn mess. People move here from neighboring municipalities and just DISLIKE the service they get. It's the worst of both worlds.

A fourth is our national defense. Privatize that and we might be done as a society.

Quote:I think there are certain things a government performs better than the private sector.

Police work to name one. They're more aligned with the values of the society than say, private guards or vigilantes tend to be. Another is fire.

Maybe/probably so.

I'm not sure these local entities are what Ernie was referring to when he said "I like big government"...???

Quote: A third I'd say is trash collecting, utilities management such as water and the oversight of power, cable, and gas right of ways. I live in a county where all of the above is outsourced.

Outsourced by who?

Quote:A fourth is our national defense. Privatize that and we might be done as a society.

Again, probably so.

But...speaking of no constraints when it comes to money, time, or resources there aren't many better examples

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10U1IG

https://www.rt.com/usa/352639-us-carrier...-problems/

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/03/ron-...e-in-iraq/

Not to mention the unnecessary human suffering and death resulting from the use of the military.

"Efficiency and ethics"....2 words that Ernie keeps using when talking about the virtues of "big government" just don't seem to apply.

Maybe someday the military will be used again for it's intended purpose?

National DEFENSE

(09-05-2016 08:36 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Last two issues of NEWSWEEK

Liberal media

(09-05-2016 03:41 PM)Moomba Wrote:  I think there are certain things a government performs better than the private sector.

Police work to name one. They're more aligned with the values of the society than say, private guards or vigilantes tend to be. Another is fire.

A third I'd say is trash collecting, utilities management such as water and the oversight of power, cable, and gas right of ways.

I live in a county where all of the above is outsourced. It's a damn mess. People move here from neighboring municipalities and just DISLIKE the service they get. It's the worst of both worlds.

A fourth is our national defense. Privatize that and we might be done as a society.

You forgot prisons.

I still like big government. What would we do if we didn't have it?

In fact, I'd like even bigger government.

I have no logic to present. It's just something I think is needed.

The private sector has had at least 100 years to create a good environment for all and they have failed miserably.

Think about it. We all make choices. Most of them are dumb. We buy fast food and take drugs and get pregnant. The average person has no clue.

It would be better to have a few hundred thousand nicely smart and educated people make most of the decisions. They will plan things out real good and that is the way things will be. A free range chicken in every pot.

The private sector had their chance. They mucked everything up. Their time should be over. Let a nice big central planning government make the big decisions.

(09-05-2016 05:23 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  I still like big government. What would we do if we didn't have it?

In fact, I'd like even bigger government. I'd like somebody to build a whole bunch of new roads and bridges. I want someone to build a huge wall, no, a dome over the entire country. I want a new state of the art high school in every place one is needed. Fast internet in every home.g

I should have moved to Denmark when I had the chance.

(09-05-2016 05:31 PM)Moomba Wrote:  

(09-05-2016 05:23 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  I still like big government. What would we do if we didn't have it?

In fact, I'd like even bigger government. I'd like somebody to build a whole bunch of new roads and bridges. I want someone to build a huge wall, no, a dome over the entire country. I want a new state of the art high school in every place one is needed. Fast internet in every home.g

I should have moved to Denmark when I had the chance.

Oh just hook up with a nice blonde and call it good. Although a nice little Scandanavian cottage might be just the thing.

Quote:It would be better to have a few hundred thousand nicely smart and educated people make most of the decisions.

Quote:I still like big government.

In fact, I'd like even bigger government.

Are you one of those "nicely smart and educated people"?

Quote:I should have moved to Denmark when I had the chance.

That ship has sailed?

(09-05-2016 06:00 PM)ESSSS Wrote:  

Quote:I should have moved to Denmark when I had the chance.

That ship has sailed?

Loooong time ago. All choices. It was a coin flip. Still wonder.

(09-05-2016 04:44 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  

(09-05-2016 08:36 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Last two issues of NEWSWEEK

Liberal media

Graham family and Washington POST haven't owned it for years but I'll concede your point.

Nevertheless - read the two articles, then comment on Trump.

(09-06-2016 06:48 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(09-05-2016 04:44 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  

(09-05-2016 08:36 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Last two issues of NEWSWEEK

Liberal media

Graham family and Washington POST haven't owned it for years but I'll concede your point.

Nevertheless - read the two articles, then comment on Trump.

I looked for them in website, couldn't find, can you post a link? Thanks.

Go back to bottom of web site, click on August 12 ("The Art of the Bad Deal") and August 19 ("An Open Letter to Paul Ryan on Donald Trump") issues.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/0...-tells-all

(09-05-2016 06:00 PM)ESSSS Wrote:  

Quote:It would be better to have a few hundred thousand nicely smart and educated people make most of the decisions.

Quote:I still like big government.

In fact, I'd like even bigger government.

Are you one of those "nicely smart and educated people"?

Well I score 99th percentile on standardized tests. I can do linear programming. I scored 100% on my 500 level calculus final, the prof said that was a first. But I'm more suited to practical stuff. If we were stranded in a survivor situation you'd be happy I was there.

By the way, I'd rank you the smartest person on this board ESSS. Always enjoy your posts. You are nicely smart and educated, I'd trust you with big decisions.

(09-06-2016 07:32 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Go back to bottom of web site, click on August 12 ("The Art of the Bad Deal") and August 19 ("An Open Letter to Paul Ryan on Donald Trump") issues.

Thanks