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ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #61
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even if Obamacare was to collapse, it would force Congress to step in and do something to fix it. Something that they didn't do in the 12 years prior to Obamacare.

Funny, how things werent exactly broke in the 12 years prior, either.

Also note that the only items that required "fixing" prior to Obamacare were things like de-coupling insurance from work and purchasing across state lines; things that would have made it impossible to ever get an Obamacare system off the ground in the future. Which is why dems blocked such measures.

Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?

Even if Obamacare fails, it will eventually turn into or be replaced by something that will work better than the system before it.

I would rather try and fail than sit on my hands and complain. One of the main reasons why I will never be a conservative.
08-26-2016 09:59 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
The worst things about our prior system were coupling insurance to work and preventing interstate purchases of insurance. The worst thing about single-payer/single-provider systems is replacing the doctor-patient relationship with centralized, bureaucratic decision-making. Obamacare combines the worst features of both. Bismarck eliminates the worst features of both.
08-26-2016 10:05 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #63
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:05 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The worst things about our prior system were coupling insurance to work and preventing interstate purchases of insurance. The worst thing about single-payer/single-provider systems is replacing the doctor-patient relationship with centralized, bureaucratic decision-making. Obamacare combines the worst features of both. Bismarck eliminates the worst features of both.

Hopefully, we will eventually get there.
08-26-2016 10:07 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #64
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 09:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even if Obamacare was to collapse, it would force Congress to step in and do something to fix it. Something that they didn't do in the 12 years prior to Obamacare.

Funny, how things werent exactly broke in the 12 years prior, either.

Also note that the only items that required "fixing" prior to Obamacare were things like de-coupling insurance from work and purchasing across state lines; things that would have made it impossible to ever get an Obamacare system off the ground in the future. Which is why dems blocked such measures.

Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?

Well in most cases when govt tries to fix something it just makes it worse.
08-26-2016 10:08 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 09:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even if Obamacare was to collapse, it would force Congress to step in and do something to fix it. Something that they didn't do in the 12 years prior to Obamacare.
Funny, how things werent exactly broke in the 12 years prior, either.
Also note that the only items that required "fixing" prior to Obamacare were things like de-coupling insurance from work and purchasing across state lines; things that would have made it impossible to ever get an Obamacare system off the ground in the future. Which is why dems blocked such measures.
Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?
Even if Obamacare fails, it will eventually turn into or be replaced by something that will work better than the system before it.
I would rather try and fail than sit on my hands and complain. One of the main reasons why I will never be a conservative.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I'd rather try something that has a chance to succeed than try and fail.
There is no guarantee that Obamacare will be replaced by something better when it fails. I tend to think it far more likely that it will be replaced with something worse.
After all, that is how you keep 'em dumb, keep 'em poor, keep 'em dependent on handouts--and keep 'em voting democrat.
08-26-2016 10:10 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #66
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:08 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even if Obamacare was to collapse, it would force Congress to step in and do something to fix it. Something that they didn't do in the 12 years prior to Obamacare.

Funny, how things werent exactly broke in the 12 years prior, either.

Also note that the only items that required "fixing" prior to Obamacare were things like de-coupling insurance from work and purchasing across state lines; things that would have made it impossible to ever get an Obamacare system off the ground in the future. Which is why dems blocked such measures.

Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?

Well in most cases when govt tries to fix something it just makes it worse.

That is a matter of opinion. What most would suggest as "worse" is really just "different".

People don't like change because with change, there is always glitches.

Over time however, people adjusts and things get changed again and eventually, things get better.

Let's be realistic, Obamacare hasn't been in effect for very long.
08-26-2016 10:11 AM
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Hood-rich Offline
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Post: #67
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

#1 achievement was to convince as many people as possible that what we had before was broken. This was done by making people think health insurance is a right. Most people have no idea what insurance actually is.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2016 10:19 AM by Hood-rich.)
08-26-2016 10:15 AM
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solohawks Online
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Post: #68
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:11 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:08 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even if Obamacare was to collapse, it would force Congress to step in and do something to fix it. Something that they didn't do in the 12 years prior to Obamacare.

Funny, how things werent exactly broke in the 12 years prior, either.

Also note that the only items that required "fixing" prior to Obamacare were things like de-coupling insurance from work and purchasing across state lines; things that would have made it impossible to ever get an Obamacare system off the ground in the future. Which is why dems blocked such measures.

Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?

Well in most cases when govt tries to fix something it just makes it worse.

That is a matter of opinion. What most would suggest as "worse" is really just "different".

People don't like change because with change, there is always glitches.

Over time however, people adjusts and things get changed again and eventually, things get better.

Let's be realistic, Obamacare hasn't been in effect for very long.

People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.
08-26-2016 10:15 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #69
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:11 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:08 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Funny, how things werent exactly broke in the 12 years prior, either.

Also note that the only items that required "fixing" prior to Obamacare were things like de-coupling insurance from work and purchasing across state lines; things that would have made it impossible to ever get an Obamacare system off the ground in the future. Which is why dems blocked such measures.

Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?

Well in most cases when govt tries to fix something it just makes it worse.

That is a matter of opinion. What most would suggest as "worse" is really just "different".

People don't like change because with change, there is always glitches.

Over time however, people adjusts and things get changed again and eventually, things get better.

Let's be realistic, Obamacare hasn't been in effect for very long.

People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.

And how is that any different than before?
08-26-2016 10:24 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #70
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:11 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:08 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 09:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Perhaps not completely broken but why should we settle for a government that waits until something is broken to fix it?

Well in most cases when govt tries to fix something it just makes it worse.

That is a matter of opinion. What most would suggest as "worse" is really just "different".

People don't like change because with change, there is always glitches.

Over time however, people adjusts and things get changed again and eventually, things get better.

Let's be realistic, Obamacare hasn't been in effect for very long.

People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.

And how is that any different than before?

If that's the case then what good is Obamacare?
08-26-2016 10:35 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.
And how is that any different than before?

Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.
08-26-2016 10:37 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #72
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.
And how is that any different than before?

Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.

It really is that simple.
08-26-2016 10:41 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #73
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.
And how is that any different than before?

Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.

Perhaps but before, they also waited until they were very sick to go to the general hospital and then we would pay for their terminal illnesses that could have been prevented through preventative medicine.
08-26-2016 10:43 AM
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UTSAMarineVet09 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
Arguing with fitbut is useless, he thinks that healthcare insurance is a right thats written on the constitution
08-26-2016 10:43 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #75
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:43 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  Arguing with fitbut is useless, he thinks that healthcare insurance is a right thats written on the constitution

I've never said that but keep on misrepresenting what I say without consequence.
08-26-2016 10:46 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.
And how is that any different than before?
Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.
Perhaps but before, they also waited until they were very sick to go to the general hospital and then we would pay for their terminal illnesses that could have been prevented through preventative medicine.

Which still happens.
08-26-2016 10:56 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #77
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  People will adjust to these high deducitbles by not getting the care they need.
And how is that any different than before?
Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.
Perhaps but before, they also waited until they were very sick to go to the general hospital and then we would pay for their terminal illnesses that could have been prevented through preventative medicine.

Which still happens.

Of course it does. Why do conservatives constantly judge the effectiveness of a law on whether or not it is 100% effective.

Nothing is 100% effective. That's not a reason to not do something.

I mean I know you guys want to keep things they way they are and thus you are known as conservatives but sheeeeesh.
08-26-2016 10:58 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #78
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Of course it does. Why do conservatives constantly judge the effectiveness of a law on whether or not it is 100% effective.
Nothing is 100% effective. That's not a reason to not do something.
I mean I know you guys want to keep things they way they are and thus you are known as conservatives but sheeeeesh.

I'm not judging on whether it is 100% effective.

I'm reaching a conclusion based on whether it does more harm than good. Right now it's about 50-50, it's a zero-sum game with winners and losers. When the IPAB gets up and fully running, it will do more harm than good.
08-26-2016 11:01 AM
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solohawks Online
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Post: #79
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 10:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  And how is that any different than before?
Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.
Perhaps but before, they also waited until they were very sick to go to the general hospital and then we would pay for their terminal illnesses that could have been prevented through preventative medicine.

Which still happens.

Of course it does. Why do conservatives constantly judge the effectiveness of a law on whether or not it is 100% effective.

Nothing is 100% effective. That's not a reason to not do something.

I mean I know you guys want to keep things they way they are and thus you are known as conservatives but sheeeeesh.

the purpose of the law was to get affordable health insurance to people.

how would you like me to measure it?

it has not been effective in its primary goal.

the cost v. benefit ratio of the law is dismal.
08-26-2016 11:01 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #80
RE: ObamaCare on the verge of collapse
(08-26-2016 11:01 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:43 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(08-26-2016 10:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Before, they weren't paying insurance premiums or penalties for the privilege of not getting the care that they needed.
Perhaps but before, they also waited until they were very sick to go to the general hospital and then we would pay for their terminal illnesses that could have been prevented through preventative medicine.

Which still happens.

Of course it does. Why do conservatives constantly judge the effectiveness of a law on whether or not it is 100% effective.

Nothing is 100% effective. That's not a reason to not do something.

I mean I know you guys want to keep things they way they are and thus you are known as conservatives but sheeeeesh.

the purpose of the law was to get affordable health insurance to people.

how would you like me to measure it?

it has not been effective in its primary goal.

the cost v. benefit ratio of the law is dismal.

Millions of people who did not previously have insurance now have it so clearly it has become affordable for many.
08-26-2016 11:03 AM
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