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DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #21
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  For F's sake Tom, it's a Private University for those of the Mormon religion. Their University, their rules.

True. However, the Big 12 runs its own conference, so they can freely apply their own rules, as well.

Quote: As long as civil rights aren't trampled why should anyone care. Guess what, gay or straight, the same code of ethics apply on campus. If you plan to engage in sexual activity while in college don't go to BYU. The only gripe that could be used against them is married gay students living off campus since it runs afoul of current US law.

Your interpretation of whether civil rights are being trampled seem to be erroneously mixed with your personal opinion of whether LGBT rights rise to the level of civil rights. The married gay students isn't the only gripe. The BYU honor code specifically states any intimacy of a homosexual nature is prohibited. That means that a gay couple can get kicked out of school for holding hands or kissing, whereas a heterosexual couple would not get kicked out for the same actions. That's discrimination. It might be legal discrimination under the protection of the practice of religion, but on that basis, Mormons could also legally not allow black people to have the same status as white people under religious freedom protections (which was actually the case until 1978). Just because it's legal in this context doesn't mean that it's not discrimination.

Now, I saw someone earlier state that BYU didn't punish his lesbian cousin for holding hands. This begs a few questions: why have it in the honor code in the first place if you're not going to have any punishment? Why even bother leaving yourself open to charges of discrimination for a written policy if you're not even going to enforce that policy? Frankly, the only thing dumber than being discriminatory would be to publicly say that you're discriminatory (and receiving all of the resulting PR fallout) and not actually follow through. It would seem that if it's really true that BYU doesn't enforce the prohibition on homosexual intimacy, then they should have no issue with eliminating it from the honor code entirely.

Quote:However SJW's have no right to pick a fight with BYU. If your not a celebate homosexual, you can't be part of the Church so why teach or go to school there?

Once again, BYU distinguishes between heterosexuals (who must be celibate) and homosexuals (who cannot even show any intimacy). That's discrimination. If you replaced the word "homosexual" with "African-American person" in the paragraph in the honor code that deals with homosexuality, I think any reasonable person would say that it's clearly discriminatory (e.g. "We don't allow anyone to have sex before marriage, but white people can still hold hands while black people can't touch each other at all"). Well, whether you agree with it or not, sexual orientation has protected status in the same manner as race in this country, so that's how people will now be judging this issue.

At the end of the day, the Big 12 can decide who to add whoever it wants on whatever criteria that it wants. The suggestion that the Big 12 should actually go out of its way to IGNORE this issue is asinine - a lot of conference realignment decisions over the years have been made on a lot less important issues compared to this one.
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 01:38 PM by Frank the Tank.)
08-16-2016 01:36 PM
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TrojanCampaign Offline
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Post: #22
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 11:20 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Guys, there are limited slots in the P5. One school gets in at the expense of another. Married LGBT persons cannot access the benefits of P5 membership at BYU as coaches, students, and athletes.

So they shouldn't get one of those coveted slots. Because it would entail a real exclusion of opportunity for LGBT persons. Mormons can and do participate at every FBS school (including Baylor and ND).

And the Big XII would have to ignore their bylaws to admit BYU. And that would mean that the Presidents would have to affirm that discrimination. Its a problem.

Its usually perilous to compare discrimination against LGBT persons with that of African Americans, but adding BYU to the Big XII would contain many similarities to the SEC in 1967. At that time, minorities could participate at SOME member institutions, but not all. And of course the SEC could say that African Americans could play at Tuskegee. But those opportunities were not equal as the funding and exposure weren't similar. And its very similar today with the Big XII if they admit BYU, then says that LGBT persons can participate at other schools or in the G5.

For F's sake Tom, it's a Private University for those of the Mormon religion. Their University, their rules. As long as civil rights aren't trampled why should anyone care. Guess what, gay or straight, the same code of ethics apply on campus. If you plan to engage in sexual activity while in college don't go to BYU. The only gripe that could be used against them is married gay students living off campus since it runs afoul of current US law. However SJW's have no right to pick a fight with BYU. If your not a celebate homosexual, you can't be part of the Church so why teach or go to school there?

Tom gets very heated whenever a religious school is brought up. You should see his utter hatred for Liberty University.

And the bold is the crazy part. There are hundreds of upper level universities in the United states. If you choose the one Mormon school in the country and maybe even the world that's on you.
08-16-2016 01:37 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #23
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:28 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 11:15 AM)kardphan Wrote:  I just find it hilarious this is just "now" coming up. When BYU has been very vocal for the last year or 2 about wanting to join the big 12.lol The timing of it is just funny to me thats all...

What I'm really curious about is TCU.b

Is TCU all warm and huggy towards the LGBT's? Or are they only a Christian University in name?


Real Christians do not discriminate against people

Real Christians understand what Jesus was about which was love anybody that has anti-LGBT policies are not real Christians

And yes TCU is composed of real Christians


And when people complain about something being PC what they are really complaining about is the fact that they are no longer free to be bigots without consequence
08-16-2016 01:37 PM
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Post: #24
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
I agree with Frank. BYU can impose whatever rules they want that don't break laws, but the Big 12 can set whatever criteria they choose for invitations, too. It's an issue for BYU. That shouldn't be up for debate.

Will it keep them out? I have no idea, but it definitely isn't helping their cause.
08-16-2016 01:45 PM
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Post: #25
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
Cincinnati (and WVU for that matter) better not get burned in this round of expansion.
08-16-2016 01:48 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #26
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:37 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 01:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 11:20 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Guys, there are limited slots in the P5. One school gets in at the expense of another. Married LGBT persons cannot access the benefits of P5 membership at BYU as coaches, students, and athletes.

So they shouldn't get one of those coveted slots. Because it would entail a real exclusion of opportunity for LGBT persons. Mormons can and do participate at every FBS school (including Baylor and ND).

And the Big XII would have to ignore their bylaws to admit BYU. And that would mean that the Presidents would have to affirm that discrimination. Its a problem.

Its usually perilous to compare discrimination against LGBT persons with that of African Americans, but adding BYU to the Big XII would contain many similarities to the SEC in 1967. At that time, minorities could participate at SOME member institutions, but not all. And of course the SEC could say that African Americans could play at Tuskegee. But those opportunities were not equal as the funding and exposure weren't similar. And its very similar today with the Big XII if they admit BYU, then says that LGBT persons can participate at other schools or in the G5.

For F's sake Tom, it's a Private University for those of the Mormon religion. Their University, their rules. As long as civil rights aren't trampled why should anyone care. Guess what, gay or straight, the same code of ethics apply on campus. If you plan to engage in sexual activity while in college don't go to BYU. The only gripe that could be used against them is married gay students living off campus since it runs afoul of current US law. However SJW's have no right to pick a fight with BYU. If your not a celebate homosexual, you can't be part of the Church so why teach or go to school there?

Tom gets very heated whenever a religious school is brought up. You should see his utter hatred for Liberty University.

And the bold is the crazy part. There are hundreds of upper level universities in the United states. If you choose the one Mormon school in the country and maybe even the world that's on you.

In 1956, the argument in the segregationist South was, "There are tons of other black restaurants in this town! If you choose our white restaurant, then that's on you!"

In 2016, we're seeing people defend discrimination with the same type of logic, as if the people being discriminated against aren't harmed since they have other choices... the very essence of "Separate but equal" positions that I thought were pretty well settled to be unconstitutional.

When people look back at the discussion in this thread in 10 years (much less 60 years), it's going to be pretty clear who history is going to judge kindly.
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 01:50 PM by Frank the Tank.)
08-16-2016 01:48 PM
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BigEastHomer Offline
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Post: #27
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
There's a reason they aren't in a P5 already.
08-16-2016 01:49 PM
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Post: #28
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 10:34 AM)Comet Wrote:  Yup, it's a major issue whether you agree with it or not. Inviting BYU in means that Big XII member schools could be sending their LGBT players to Provo and they need to be respected/protected. You run the risk of that not happening.

Or you run the risk of players being denied a Big XII opportunity based upon their religious beliefs. When does it end? Everyone just needs to respect each other, rather than impose their will.
08-16-2016 01:51 PM
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Post: #29
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:51 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  Everyone just needs to respect each other, rather than impose their will.

Closeting homosexuals for the same behavior as heterosexuals is not respecting each other.
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 01:55 PM by BigEastHomer.)
08-16-2016 01:54 PM
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Post: #30
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:51 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 10:34 AM)Comet Wrote:  Yup, it's a major issue whether you agree with it or not. Inviting BYU in means that Big XII member schools could be sending their LGBT players to Provo and they need to be respected/protected. You run the risk of that not happening.

Or you run the risk of players being denied a Big XII opportunity based upon their religious beliefs. When does it end? Everyone just needs to respect each other, rather than impose their will.

So who lays down the sword 1st. I'm guessing no one.
08-16-2016 01:55 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #31
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:51 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 10:34 AM)Comet Wrote:  Yup, it's a major issue whether you agree with it or not. Inviting BYU in means that Big XII member schools could be sending their LGBT players to Provo and they need to be respected/protected. You run the risk of that not happening.

Or you run the risk of players being denied a Big XII opportunity based upon their religious beliefs. When does it end? Everyone just needs to respect each other, rather than impose their will.

In pretty much the only thing that I've seen The Dude of WV write that I agree with: membership in the Big 12 is a privilege, NOT a right.

If BYU doesn't make it into the Big 12, then BYU would be the one denying their players that Big 12 opportunity with how they have written their honor code (which some have claimed is not even enforced with respect to the homosexual intimacy paragraph that's at issue here, which makes it even more ridiculous to have that language in the first place). The Big 12 doesn't have to accept a school that they believe is engaging in discrimination regardless of whether it's based upon a religious belief.
08-16-2016 01:57 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #32
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
It's making an issue out of a non-issue.

When you start having to point fingers at who is discriminating against who you know it's over.
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 01:59 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
08-16-2016 01:58 PM
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Post: #33
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It's making an issue out of a non-issue.

When you start having to point fingers at who is discriminating against who you know it's over.

Double standards are never good... They will ALWAYS be an issue.

Especially when they are veiled under the guise of "honor"
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 02:05 PM by BigEastHomer.)
08-16-2016 02:02 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #34
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 02:02 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 01:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It's making an issue out of a non-issue.

When you start having to point fingers at who is discriminating against who you know it's over.

Double standards are never good... They will ALWAYS be an issue.

Especially when they are veiled under the guise of "honor"

Agreed...

Same goes when under the guise of "fighting discrimination."
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 02:13 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
08-16-2016 02:12 PM
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Post: #35
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:57 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  In pretty much the only thing that I've seen The Dude of WV write that I agree with: membership in the Big 12 is a privilege, NOT a right.

If BYU doesn't make it into the Big 12, then BYU would be the one denying their players that Big 12 opportunity with how they have written their honor code (which some have claimed is not even enforced with respect to the homosexual intimacy paragraph that's at issue here, which makes it even more ridiculous to have that language in the first place). The Big 12 doesn't have to accept a school that they believe is engaging in discrimination regardless of whether it's based upon a religious belief.

First, the reactionaries saying that "holding hands will get you kicked out of BYU" have no basis in reality. They have never come forward with a single person who has been kicked out of BYU for holding hands. They have never come forward with someone who was kicked out of BYU for kissing. They simply have no data, no facts, and no real information.

I challenge Tom to find one reputable instance of someone who was kicked out of BYU for just holding hands or just kissing. I've already supplied you with the counter-example of my cousin who was not kicked out. This is not "non-enforcement," just the reality that things are quite different than what the SJW dramatically claim, and are handled in a more mature way.

Second, you are missing the point that the conference and the presidents have a fiduciary duty to the conference. They have a responsibility to help get the best schools available, or the conference is at risk of being poached by P5 conferences making more money. You have to come back to the data, and this is where BYU shines.
Independent ranking of candidates

If the presidents leave BYU out for political reasons, they are abrogating their fiduciary responsibilities to their schools and conference, contrary to what they have committed to do.
08-16-2016 02:43 PM
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Post: #36
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
08-16-2016 02:45 PM
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Post: #37
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 11:02 AM)HawkeyeCoug Wrote:  One of the big things missing is any evidence. Can they find even one person who was kicked out of BYU for holding hands? My Lesbian cousin graduated from BYU, and was never kicked out for "holding hands." Let them bring up real data, on not speculation on how they think BYU might enforce things.

Ironically, BYU was recently rated as the safest college campus by Niche
100 safest college campuses, 2016
Details on Top 25 safest college campuses from Business Insider

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4186603-155/s...eaves-lgbt
08-16-2016 03:13 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 01:37 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 01:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 11:20 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Guys, there are limited slots in the P5. One school gets in at the expense of another. Married LGBT persons cannot access the benefits of P5 membership at BYU as coaches, students, and athletes.

So they shouldn't get one of those coveted slots. Because it would entail a real exclusion of opportunity for LGBT persons. Mormons can and do participate at every FBS school (including Baylor and ND).

And the Big XII would have to ignore their bylaws to admit BYU. And that would mean that the Presidents would have to affirm that discrimination. Its a problem.

Its usually perilous to compare discrimination against LGBT persons with that of African Americans, but adding BYU to the Big XII would contain many similarities to the SEC in 1967. At that time, minorities could participate at SOME member institutions, but not all. And of course the SEC could say that African Americans could play at Tuskegee. But those opportunities were not equal as the funding and exposure weren't similar. And its very similar today with the Big XII if they admit BYU, then says that LGBT persons can participate at other schools or in the G5.

For F's sake Tom, it's a Private University for those of the Mormon religion. Their University, their rules. As long as civil rights aren't trampled why should anyone care. Guess what, gay or straight, the same code of ethics apply on campus. If you plan to engage in sexual activity while in college don't go to BYU. The only gripe that could be used against them is married gay students living off campus since it runs afoul of current US law. However SJW's have no right to pick a fight with BYU. If your not a celebate homosexual, you can't be part of the Church so why teach or go to school there?

Tom gets very heated whenever a religious school is brought up. You should see his utter hatred for Liberty University.

And the bold is the crazy part. There are hundreds of upper level universities in the United states. If you choose the one Mormon school in the country and maybe even the world that's on you.

Again, that argument is pretty much no different than Alabama in 1967 telling people complaining about discriminatory practices....well, black people can coach and play at Kentucky or Tuskegee, so why are they complaining?

Well they were complaining because may of the top level jobs with the better pay and better exposure providing athletic slots went to schools where they couldn't participate. Telling LGBT people, just go play at Troy because BYU won't have you is discrimination. Because Troy don't pay what the P5 does.

And we're making largely the same argument. Participation in the P5 is not open admissions. One school gets in at the expense of another. And any opening given to BYU will mean that those slots and jobs will be denied to LGBT persons (especially married ones).
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 03:13 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
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Post: #39
RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
I get that a lot of people are disagreeing with what I said, but my comment comes from the experiences of one of my gay friends who went there and was miserable. He's doing much better now at NYC lol
08-16-2016 03:16 PM
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RE: DMN - If LGBT stance disqualifies BYU as Big 12 expansion candidate.....
(08-16-2016 02:43 PM)HawkeyeCoug Wrote:  
(08-16-2016 01:57 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  In pretty much the only thing that I've seen The Dude of WV write that I agree with: membership in the Big 12 is a privilege, NOT a right.

If BYU doesn't make it into the Big 12, then BYU would be the one denying their players that Big 12 opportunity with how they have written their honor code (which some have claimed is not even enforced with respect to the homosexual intimacy paragraph that's at issue here, which makes it even more ridiculous to have that language in the first place). The Big 12 doesn't have to accept a school that they believe is engaging in discrimination regardless of whether it's based upon a religious belief.

First, the reactionaries saying that "holding hands will get you kicked out of BYU" have no basis in reality. They have never come forward with a single person who has been kicked out of BYU for holding hands. They have never come forward with someone who was kicked out of BYU for kissing. They simply have no data, no facts, and no real information.

I challenge Tom to find one reputable instance of someone who was kicked out of BYU for just holding hands or just kissing. I've already supplied you with the counter-example of my cousin who was not kicked out. This is not "non-enforcement," just the reality that things are quite different than what the SJW dramatically claim, and are handled in a more mature way.

Then answer the questions that I posed previously (as they were actually directed at you since you were the one with the lesbian cousin): if BYU isn't going to enforce that paragraph of the honor code, what is the point of having it in the first place? What good does it serve anyone at BYU to have honor code language that leads to charges of discrimination and the school doesn't even choose to enforce it? What is the purpose of being "superficially discriminatory", since that seems to be the worst of both worlds (you're not actually following through on your principled stand yet you're getting bashed for being discriminatory, anyway)?

Quote:Second, you are missing the point that the conference and the presidents have a fiduciary duty to the conference. They have a responsibility to help get the best schools available, or the conference is at risk of being poached by P5 conferences making more money. You have to come back to the data, and this is where BYU shines.
Independent ranking of candidates

If the presidents leave BYU out for political reasons, they are abrogating their fiduciary responsibilities to their schools and conference, contrary to what they have committed to do.

The conference and the presidents also have a fiduciary responsibility to adhere to their own standards of conduct and compliance measures (and BYU's honor code could be in violation of those standards). Believe it or not, there are some fiduciary duties (such as not promoting and allowing for discrimination against protected classes) outside of making the most money possible, particularly when public institutions are involved.

Of course, the ultimate irony is that Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, in his interest of getting Houston in the Big 12, may find the best course of having that occur is to point out BYU's stance on LGBT rights even though he has outspokenly stated that Texans could use the "religious liberty" card in pushing back against gay marriage. Conference realignment can make some strange bedfellows.
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2016 03:34 PM by Frank the Tank.)
08-16-2016 03:31 PM
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