Interesting article, mostly speculation I assume. Obviously I disagree on the writer's stance about UT

https://www.campuspressbox.com/2016/mach...rting-aac/

(07-29-2016 09:24 AM)ToledoMike Wrote:  Interesting article, mostly speculation I assume. Obviously I disagree on the writer's stance about UT

https://www.campuspressbox.com/2016/mach...rting-aac/

I don't like to read negatives about Toledo, either. But that's what being associated with the MAC has done for us.

"Academics" Graber will sell it. The University has to find a way to distinguish its open admission mandate from the reality of the academic programs. The state should be supportive of that effort as recognition for Toledo is recognition for the state. What should hopefully be of more importance to the AAC is the academics of the athletic programs.

(07-29-2016 09:43 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  "Academics" Graber will sell it. The University has to find a way to distinguish its open admission mandate from the reality of the academic programs. The state should be supportive of that effort as recognition for Toledo is recognition for the state. What should hopefully be of more importance to the AAC is the academics of the athletic programs.

The Rockets have won the MAC's Institutional Athletic Academic Excellence Award 4 of the last 5 years. The recent APR was 2nd in the MAC. The Men's BB program was awarded a NABC Team Academic Excellence Award Only 24 Division I programs received it no other MAC schools. Baseball got a ABCA academic award, only 30 given in Division I given. Women's Volleyball, Swimming, etc have been recognized.

You should look at the academics of the Athletic programs for Athletic Conference membership. It is hard to compare the academics of average students at Universities with open enrollment versus Country Club Schools and to use that as a tool for membership is absurd. I can certainly tell you that the top students at UT could compete at top-tier schools.

Btw, UT's ranking as a World University, it certainly not at the bottom of the MAC.

(07-29-2016 11:19 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(07-29-2016 09:43 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  "Academics" Graber will sell it. The University has to find a way to distinguish its open admission mandate from the reality of the academic programs. The state should be supportive of that effort as recognition for Toledo is recognition for the state. What should hopefully be of more importance to the AAC is the academics of the athletic programs.

The Rockets have won the MAC's Institutional Athletic Academic Excellence Award 4 of the last 5 years. The recent APR was 2nd in the MAC. The Men's BB program was awarded a NABC Team Academic Excellence Award Only 24 Division I programs received it no other MAC schools. Baseball got a ABCA academic award, only 30 given in Division I given. Women's Volleyball, Swimming, etc have been recognized.

You should look at the academics of the Athletic programs for Athletic Conference membership. It is hard to compare the academics of average students at Universities with open enrollment versus Country Club Schools and to use that as a tool for membership is absurd. I can certainly tell you that the top students at UT could compete at top-tier schools.

Btw, UT's ranking as a World University, it certainly not at the bottom of the MAC.

Not clear to me from the wording of your post if you realize, we are saying the same thing?

(07-29-2016 11:41 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(07-29-2016 11:19 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(07-29-2016 09:43 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  "Academics" Graber will sell it. The University has to find a way to distinguish its open admission mandate from the reality of the academic programs. The state should be supportive of that effort as recognition for Toledo is recognition for the state. What should hopefully be of more importance to the AAC is the academics of the athletic programs.

The Rockets have won the MAC's Institutional Athletic Academic Excellence Award 4 of the last 5 years. The recent APR was 2nd in the MAC. The Men's BB program was awarded a NABC Team Academic Excellence Award Only 24 Division I programs received it no other MAC schools. Baseball got a ABCA academic award, only 30 given in Division I given. Women's Volleyball, Swimming, etc have been recognized.

You should look at the academics of the Athletic programs for Athletic Conference membership. It is hard to compare the academics of average students at Universities with open enrollment versus Country Club Schools and to use that as a tool for membership is absurd. I can certainly tell you that the top students at UT could compete at top-tier schools.

Btw, UT's ranking as a World University, it certainly not at the bottom of the MAC.

Not clear to me from the wording of your post if you realize, we are saying the same thing?

Not intended as a rebuttal.

(07-29-2016 09:34 AM)SylvaniaRocket Wrote:  I don't like to read negatives about Toledo, either. But that's what being associated with the MAC has done for us.

Being associated with the MAC is bad enough but what is REALLY BAD is being associated with the MAC and NOT being able to win either a championship in football or a trip to the NCAA in either MBB or WBB in well over a decade. The way most people outside of the UT fan base would likely see it is: "If you can't win a conference championship in the conference you are in once in a while, are you really "too good" for that conference and deserving being in a better conference?"-----and frankly that is a point that can't be swept under the rug.

I do think the article was a bit too harsh in judging UT's academic standing, but like most people and surveys it probably dwelt on UT's admission standards and subsequent graduation rates which usually kills UT chances for ratings. These people and their surveys NEVER seem to consider (or give UT credit for) the extent and breadth of the programs which UT offers and this is a real strength----UT is one of the few truly COMPREHENSIVE universities around---about the only thing it is missing is an ag school.

However, having said that, Buffalo is about as close to being a "flagship" state university as anything the State of New York has to offer and without looking up data on research $$$ or foundation $$$, I doubt that UT can match them. There is also that matter of men's basketball that can be a real money maker for teams that can consistently get to the NCAA Tournament-----here Buffalo has been to the NCAA TWICE in the past two year whereas Toledo has NOT been to the NCAA for the past 36 years......and any conference looking for new member will be painfully aware of that fact.

I have to more or less agree with the author's take that the MAC school likely to be the most desirable to the AAC would be Buffalo, although I would have also added Ohio to the article as an "also ran" along with Toledo and NIU. However, I doubt that the BIG 12 will take four schools from the AAU anyway as I suspect the Mountain West also has an attractive candidate or two in the wings and CUSA still has a few schools who the AAU would probably favor over anyone in the MAC.

The guy mentions NIU making more seats. Thats great. But they can't even fill 10,000 of the 20,000 they have now. What is an even emptier stadium going to look like?

(07-29-2016 02:51 PM)rocketinchitown Wrote:  The guy mentions NIU making more seats. Thats great. But they can't even fill 10,000 of the 20,000 they have now. What is an even emptier stadium going to look like?

He said seating options, and I do believe the first upgrade would be adding premium seating areas, not really overall capacity. That's in the master plan also but probably for the distant future, if ever. We supposedly have the money for this first part, but are waiting for the state to figure out it's budget problems. Which could be years, based on what we've seen so far out of Springfield.

I agree that Buffalo seems like a possibility, if the AAC doesn't mind a school that has struggled with football for the most part. And they're a lot more geographically sensible than we are (and of course, academics are a plus too).

(07-29-2016 01:59 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(07-29-2016 09:34 AM)SylvaniaRocket Wrote:  I don't like to read negatives about Toledo, either. But that's what being associated with the MAC has done for us.

Being associated with the MAC is bad enough but what is REALLY BAD is being associated with the MAC and NOT being able to win either a championship in football or a trip to the NCAA in either MBB or WBB in well over a decade. The way most people outside of the UT fan base would likely see it is: "If you can't win a conference championship in the conference you are in once in a while, are you really "too good" for that conference and deserving being in a better conference?"-----and frankly that is a point that can't be swept under the rug.

I do think the article was a bit too harsh in judging UT's academic standing, but like most people and surveys it probably dwelt on UT's admission standards and subsequent graduation rates which usually kills UT chances for ratings. These people and their surveys NEVER seem to consider (or give UT credit for) the extent and breadth of the programs which UT offers and this is a real strength----UT is one of the few truly COMPREHENSIVE universities around---about the only thing it is missing is an ag school.

However, having said that, Buffalo is about as close to being a "flagship" state university as anything the State of New York has to offer and without looking up data on research $$$ or foundation $$$, I doubt that UT can match them. There is also that matter of men's basketball that can be a real money maker for teams that can consistently get to the NCAA Tournament-----here Buffalo has been to the NCAA TWICE in the past two year whereas Toledo has NOT been to the NCAA for the past 36 years......and any conference looking for new member will be painfully aware of that fact.

I have to more or less agree with the author's take that the MAC school likely to be the most desirable to the AAC would be Buffalo, although I would have also added Ohio to the article as an "also ran" along with Toledo and NIU. However, I doubt that the BIG 12 will take four schools from the AAU anyway as I suspect the Mountain West also has an attractive candidate or two in the wings and CUSA still has a few schools who the AAU would probably favor over anyone in the MAC.

UT enrollment 18,130 endowment $416.2 million
UB enrollment 29,850 endowment $624.9 million

(07-29-2016 09:34 AM)SylvaniaRocket Wrote:  

(07-29-2016 09:24 AM)ToledoMike Wrote:  Interesting article, mostly speculation I assume. Obviously I disagree on the writer's stance about UT

https://www.campuspressbox.com/2016/mach...rting-aac/

I don't like to read negatives about Toledo, either. But that's what being associated with the MAC has done for us.

Losing to NIU 6 times straight hasn't exactly helped either.

(07-29-2016 09:24 AM)ToledoMike Wrote:  Interesting article, mostly speculation I assume. Obviously I disagree on the writer's stance about UT

https://www.campuspressbox.com/2016/mach...rting-aac/

The guy is a moron. He calls an 8-6 school that can't win Bowl games, has poor attendance, with a $71.2 million endowment a sexy pick. He lumps
UT in with what is happening at Akron U. Because a lack of the grasp of the
facts this piece becomes opinion and nothing more. It's a shame that you can't see a Bio on these writers/bloggers to see what their real motives are.

(07-30-2016 02:34 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  The guy is a moron. He calls an 8-6 school that can't win Bowl games, has poor attendance, with a $71.2 million endowment a sexy pick. He lumps
UT in with what is happening at Akron U. Because a lack of the grasp of the
facts this piece becomes opinion and nothing more. It's a shame that you can't see a Bio on these writers/bloggers to see what their real motives are.

Agreed, I don't know all the numbers for all the MAC schools, but suspected that some of the things this guy says were false.

(07-29-2016 11:53 PM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  Smh...we need to win A FREAKING MAC CHAMPIONSHIP....11 YEARS...not even a single appearance in that span. Sorry, that's just really hard to fathom at this late hour.

Yes, it is getting very frustrating that we continue to have success against quality teams OOC, gaining us national recognition from time to time, yet we cannot win the big MAC West game required to have a shot at the MACC.

Even more frustrating is that we can beat our rival over and over, yet they keep going to the MACC and are able to beat the team we have trouble with.

I agree the hour is late. At this juncture in college football, we need to have some timely success this season. One great season, including a MACC, would make the pundits forget about NIU for awhile. Let's hope the coaching staff and quality players we have can capitalize this year.

I don't care what anybody says, we haven't won a championship because of lousy coaching. Maybe not lousy, but certainly not in the upper echelons of what has passed through the MAC. Amstutuz took the Pinkel way of doing things, loosened the reins a bit and got a great OC - and that led to 2 championships in 4 years. Then his loosening the reins caught up to him and it nose-dived. In my opinion, neither Beckman or Campbell were better than at least 2 or 3 coaches in the conference at the time they were head coach. Even with an advantage on recruiting with the facilities, crowds and what an urban setting can offer - no championships. I don't know if Candle is the guy. Liked what I saw against Temple, but we have not had that all-MAC quarterback in a long, long time. BG has had 3rd string QB's that were better than our starters in some seasons. Without a high quality QB, we are going nowhere. I don't understand why it has been so hard to find that guy. Or we get them and can't develop them further.

(07-30-2016 01:36 PM)MotoRocket Wrote:  I don't care what anybody says, we haven't won a championship because of lousy coaching. Maybe not lousy, but certainly not in the upper echelons of what has passed through the MAC. Amstutuz took the Pinkel way of doing things, loosened the reins a bit and got a great OC - and that led to 2 championships in 4 years. Then his loosening the reins caught up to him and it nose-dived. In my opinion, neither Beckman or Campbell were better than at least 2 or 3 coaches in the conference at the time they were head coach. Even with an advantage on recruiting with the facilities, crowds and what an urban setting can offer - no championships. I don't know if Candle is the guy. Liked what I saw against Temple, but we have not had that all-MAC quarterback in a long, long time. BG has had 3rd string QB's that were better than our starters in some seasons. Without a high quality QB, we are going nowhere. I don't understand why it has been so hard to find that guy. Or we get them and can't develop them further.

UT was 10 points away from being unbeaten in 2015. 3 points kept the Rockets out of the MACC in 2011 and 2014. I don't see it as a QB issue.
If the BG's QB situation is the deal maker why have the Rockets beaten them 6 straight? To me it's coaching. Beckman and Campbell brought certain strengths to the program but had their flaws which ultimately caused UT to fall short. The program has been digging out of the mess
that former players with character issues caused. Finally this past year we're starting to see the light. Rockets are so close to that breakthrough season, so close.

(07-30-2016 04:58 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(07-30-2016 01:36 PM)MotoRocket Wrote:  I don't care what anybody says, we haven't won a championship because of lousy coaching. Maybe not lousy, but certainly not in the upper echelons of what has passed through the MAC. Amstutuz took the Pinkel way of doing things, loosened the reins a bit and got a great OC - and that led to 2 championships in 4 years. Then his loosening the reins caught up to him and it nose-dived. In my opinion, neither Beckman or Campbell were better than at least 2 or 3 coaches in the conference at the time they were head coach. Even with an advantage on recruiting with the facilities, crowds and what an urban setting can offer - no championships. I don't know if Candle is the guy. Liked what I saw against Temple, but we have not had that all-MAC quarterback in a long, long time. BG has had 3rd string QB's that were better than our starters in some seasons. Without a high quality QB, we are going nowhere. I don't understand why it has been so hard to find that guy. Or we get them and can't develop them further.

UT was 10 points away from being unbeaten in 2015. 3 points kept the Rockets out of the MACC in 2011 and 2014. I don't see it as a QB issue.
If the BG's QB situation is the deal maker why have the Rockets beaten them 6 straight? To me it's coaching. Beckman and Campbell brought certain strengths to the program but had their flaws which ultimately caused UT to fall short. The program has been digging out of the mess
that former players with character issues caused. Finally this past year we're starting to see the light. Rockets are so close to that breakthrough season, so close.

The point I'm making is that if we had the quality of QB's that BG has had, not only do we beat them 6 straight, but we get to some MAC championship games. They have not had the quality of players we have had on the entire team. We get all the talent, but don't have a high level QB. We have had decent QB's but not the type that is going to get us a championship. NIU has had those guys, BG has had those guys. A third stringer at NIU was enough to beat us. And we come out flat in 2 must win games in 2015. Doesn't matter how close we came - we lost home games we should have won. To me, that goes to poor coaching.

And we come out flat in 2 must win games in 2015. Doesn't matter how close we came - we lost home games we should have won. To me, that goes to poor coaching.
[/quote]

The thing a lot of folks miss here is the impact of TV. What should be huge late season game with a big crowd, students tailgates, senior night extended families, etc... have become play for exposure late Tuesday night or early Friday morning 4 hour marathons. The stadium is half full. Energy is low. People leave early to get sleep for work or school tomorrow. Almost every key home loss over this stretch happened in this context. Put the Rockets in a big game atmosphere with the title on the line and at least 3 of those 6 years we win. Now, the Campbell bailing for Big12 WMU debacle last year is whole notha thing...

This year's loss to NIU was before 23,000+ with near perfect weather conditions. On top of it, Hare and Lewis went down early in the game.
Coaches became too conservative playing not top lose instead of playing to wing. Of course there was that critical phantom leveraging call.