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It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #1
It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
I think it's well past time for the Big 12 and its fans to be honest with themselves about the state of their conference. If they do that, they have a chance to improve. However, their public relations has been horrible and it's primarily because their fans and some admins are wildly delusional.

First, they lose a bunch of teams all at once. That is a big-time red flag that your conference is highly dysfunctional. That just doesn't happen – at least it hasn't happened to anyone else.

Then they conduct a haphazard search in which they approached Notre Dame, Arkansas, Pitt, and others and they were snubbed at every turn.

Then, they finally got their act together and invited TCU as their ninth team and later West Virginia as team No. 10. However, when they adopted West Virginia they should've taken Louisville and Cincinnati as well. That would've been an excellent decision on their part and there would be no geographical or cultural outliers. Louisville and Cincinnati are longtime rivals and West Virginia would fit in with that pair like a glove.

However, because they are delusional, the Big 12 snubbed Louisville and Cincinnati in favor of trying to lure Florida State and Clemson. That was a huge mistake and one they will long regret. Had they made the common sense decision to add the other two Ohio Valley schools, I think they would be in a different position right now.

Since that time, their dysfunction and dissension has only grown. It is rare that a month goes by without reading some account of some administrator upset with the conference or a school within the conference – usually involving Oklahoma and Texas.

That's not good.

After being held off for a long time, Oklahoma has finally won its power struggle with Texas and they're going to expand – most likely by for teams.

However, because they are relentlessly delusional, instead of getting serious and picking from the best G5 schools available, we're constantly reading and hearing nonsense about how all of these recently defected schools are dying to come back or how this Pac-12 school or that Pac-12 school is just dying to join that conference.

What?! Seriously, WTF?!

It's time to face reality. No P5 program would even consider leaving their current situation to join the wildly unstable and geographically landlocked Big 12. Any assertion to the contrary is pure poppycock.

So if I were advising them, and I'm obviously not, I would tell everyone, "Hey guys, let's get serious about this and let's start looking at the resumes of Brigham Young, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Central Florida, Colorado State, Memphis, Houston, San Diego State, Boise State, South Florida, etc. That's where your next set of teams are going to come from, not the ACC, the SEC, the Pac-12, the AFC South, etc.

Honestly, I think there's one clear choice – BYU – and a whole bunch of choices that are ultimately very comparable with each other. I think it depends on the direction the league wants to pursue.

If it were up to me, I think I would fill the other three spots with Cincinnati and the Florida twins. I think those three programs all have good potential for growth – perhaps better potential for growth than all of the others except, maybe Houston. However, there are many ways in which they could go that would also make sense.

What does not make sense is UCLA leaving the Pac-12 for the Big 12; or Nebraska forfeiting all of the money it is now raking in to return to the Big 12. That type of thinking is just plain nonsense and it always has been.
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 06:37 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
07-26-2016 11:17 AM
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Post: #2
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 10 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.
07-26-2016 11:23 AM
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
When they were down to 8 schools they should have added 6 schools instead of 2.
West Virginia, Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis
TCU & BYU

Then become the Big XIV
EAST
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State


WEST
Texas
Baylor
TCU
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
BYU

UConn would have been added to the ACC.
Left the Big East/American with South Florida, UCF, Houston, SMU, Tulsa, East Carolina, and Temple. I think a lot of things might have happened after with Houston & SMU going to the Mountain West possibly.
I think the American (different name) would have been a C-USA esc conference
EAST
Temple
Marshall
Old Dominion
East Carolina
Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee
UCF

WEST
South Florida
UAB
Southern Miss
Arkansas State
Tulane
Rice
Tulsa
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 11:55 AM by Carolina_Low_Country.)
07-26-2016 11:47 AM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #4
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
The Big 14

( ole Big 8 division )

1, Colorado state
2, Iowa state
3, Kansas
4, Kansas state
5, Nebraska
6, Oklahoma
7, Oklahoma state

( ole SWC division )

1, Arkansas
2, Baylor
3, Houston
4, TCU
5, Texas
6, Texas Tech
7, Tulane
07-26-2016 12:05 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #5
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 11:17 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I think it's well past time for the Big 12 and its fans to be honest with themselves about the state of their conference. If they do that, they have a chance to improve. However, their public relations has been horrible and it's primarily because their fans and some admins are wildly delusional.

First, they lose a bunch of teams all at once. That is a big-time red flag that your conference is highly dysfunctional. That just doesn't happen – at least it hasn't happened to anyone else.

Then they conduct a haphazard search in which they approached Notre Dame, Arkansas, Pitt, and others and they were snubbed at every turn.

Then, they finally got their act together and invited TCU as their ninth team and later West Virginia as team No. 10. However, when they adopted West Virginia they should've taken Louisville and Cincinnati as well. That would've been an excellent decision on their part and there would be no geographical or cultural outliers. Louisville and Cincinnati are longtime rivals and West Virginia would fit in with that pair like a glove.

However, because they are delusional, the Big 12 snubbed Louisville and Cincinnati in favor of trying to lure Florida State and Clemson. That was a huge mistake and one they will long regret. Had they made the common sense decision to add the other two Ohio Valley schools, I think they would be in a different position right now.

Since that time, their dysfunction and dissension has only grown. It is rare that a month goes by without reading some account of some administrator upset with the conference or a school within the conference – usually involving Oklahoma and Texas.

That's not good.

After being held off for a long time, Oklahoma has finally won its power struggle with Texas and they're going to expand – most likely by for teams.

However, because they are relentlessly delusional, instead of getting serious and picking from the best G5 schools available, we're constantly reading and hearing nonsense about how all of these recently defected schools are dying to come back or how this Pac-12 school or that Pac-12 school is just dying to join that conference.

What?! Seriously, WTF?!

It's time to face reality. No P5 program would even consider leaving their current situation to join the wildly unstable and geographically landlocked Big 12. Any assertion to the contrary is pure poppycock.

So if I were advising them, and I'm obviously not, I would tell everyone, "Hey guys, let's get serious about this and let's start looking at the resumes of Brigham Young, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Central Florida, Colorado State, Memphis, Houston, San Diego State, Boise State, South Florida, etc. That's where your next set of teams are going to come from, not the ACC, the SEC, the Pac-12, the AFC South, etc.

Honestly, I think there's one clear choice – BYU – and a whole bunch of choices that are ultimately very comparable with each other. I think it depends on the direction the league wants to pursue.

If it were up to me, I think I would fill the other three spots with Cincinnati and the Florida twins. I think those three programs all have good potential for growth – perhaps better potential for growth than all of the others except, maybe Houston. However, there are many ways in which they could go that would also make sense.

What does not make sense is UCLA leaving the Pac-12 for the Big 12; or Nebraska for fitting all of the money it is now raking in to return to the Big 12. That type of thinking is just plain nonsense and it always has been.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume OU won a power struggle with Texas. At this point, there has been no decision by the Big XII to expand - only to continue to talk about it. We still don't know where Texas stands on the issue, and we probably won't until a final decision is made. They aren't in the habit of showing their hand before they have to.

It's hard to argue that the league isn't dysfunctional. It's also hard to argue that adding a bunch of new schools into the mix will make it less dysfunctional. IMO, the only thing that will accomplish that for more than a few years is for Texas to leave. And, IMO, that is unlikely. They don't fit well anywhere else, either.

They may just have to learn to live with their dysfunction, even if that is sub-optimal.
07-26-2016 12:08 PM
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jgkojak Offline
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Post: #6
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
Mistakes go way back:

Early 90s: Arkansas wanted out of SW Conf, made overtures to Big 8. Easily could have added.
Mid 90s: Forming Big 12, let Texas dictate BYU not being included. BYU would have been a balance to the power Texas had and MAYBE some of this would not have happened.

Even if at that point Colorado leaves for the Pac, Nebraska, Missouri and A&M leave, you have a solid 10 w/Arkansas and BYU, and an easy add in Baylor and Utah (for BYU partner).
07-26-2016 12:22 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #7
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 12 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

FIFY

UL may even have been the preferred pick for number 10, but was not willing to shoot its way out of the Big East early, which WVU was willing to do.
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 12:28 PM by orangefan.)
07-26-2016 12:25 PM
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UpStreamRedTeam Offline
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Post: #8
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 10 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

The Big 10 was considering taking Louisville in 1993?
07-26-2016 01:25 PM
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arkstfan Away
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 01:25 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 10 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

The Big 10 was considering taking Louisville in 1993?

Brain fart.
07-26-2016 01:30 PM
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EvilVodka Offline
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Post: #10
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
The Big XII has no identity....they don't know what they want to be.

Do they want to be a geographic conference? Do they want to expand eastward for more media attention? Do they want markets? Do they want football talented schools? Do they want academics?

Every other conference is more predictable in what they want. They have better identities....

The Big XII is a mess, pure and simple
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 02:10 PM by EvilVodka.)
07-26-2016 02:08 PM
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EvilVodka Offline
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 12:22 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  Mid 90s: Forming Big 12, let Texas dictate BYU not being included. BYU would have been a balance to the power Texas had and MAYBE some of this would not have happened.

The Big XII was destined to be a Texas-centric conference...population, markets, and recruiting. The original divisional set up of the Big XII was horribly unbalanced...it was a huge fail
07-26-2016 02:16 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 12:25 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 12 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

FIFY

UL may even have been the preferred pick for number 10, but was not willing to shoot its way out of the Big East early, which WVU was willing to do.

During the conversation stage, before even TCU was invited, I suspect that privately there was some support for adding Louisville, West Virginia, and Pitt as a bloc to get back to 12. While all of those schools might have felt the ACC was a better fit if the BE imploded, only West Virginia had good reason to think that their chances of getting an ACC invite were very slim.

TCU and WVU were thus "two birds in the hand", and the Big XII was afraid they needed to act quickly to stop the bleeding.
07-26-2016 02:17 PM
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Post: #13
RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 02:16 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 12:22 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  Mid 90s: Forming Big 12, let Texas dictate BYU not being included. BYU would have been a balance to the power Texas had and MAYBE some of this would not have happened.

The Big XII was destined to be a Texas-centric conference...population, markets, and recruiting. The original divisional set up of the Big XII was horribly unbalanced...it was a huge fail

When the Big 12 was founded the divisions were not unbalanced at all. Nebraska, Colorado were top 10 programs. K-State was a solid top 25. Baylor and Oklahoma State sucked.
07-26-2016 02:38 PM
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 02:16 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 12:22 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  Mid 90s: Forming Big 12, let Texas dictate BYU not being included. BYU would have been a balance to the power Texas had and MAYBE some of this would not have happened.

The Big XII was destined to be a Texas-centric conference...population, markets, and recruiting. The original divisional set up of the Big XII was horribly unbalanced...it was a huge fail

That's looking at it in hindsight. In the mid '90s NU, CU and KSU were national powers and the Texas additions sans A&M were not doing all that great. Oklahoma and Oklahoma State were down too. The South didn't start dominating until almost a decade into the conference.
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 02:43 PM by Hokie4Skins.)
07-26-2016 02:39 PM
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 02:17 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 12:25 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 12 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

FIFY

UL may even have been the preferred pick for number 10, but was not willing to shoot its way out of the Big East early, which WVU was willing to do.

During the conversation stage, before even TCU was invited, I suspect that privately there was some support for adding Louisville, West Virginia, and Pitt as a bloc to get back to 12. While all of those schools might have felt the ACC was a better fit if the BE imploded, only West Virginia had good reason to think that their chances of getting an ACC invite were very slim.

TCU and WVU were thus "two birds in the hand", and the Big XII was afraid they needed to act quickly to stop the bleeding.

It was a bit more than just the bleeding Ken D. They had to have a specific number of schools (10) to keep their TV contract enforceable.
07-26-2016 02:45 PM
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 12:25 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 12 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

FIFY

UL may even have been the preferred pick for number 10, but was not willing to shoot its way out of the Big East early, which WVU was willing to do.

That's delusional fiction by UL fans. Remember they are the ethical ones. They hire only the most ethical people like Pitino and Petrino and only hire the most ethical hookers as well. 04-cheers
07-26-2016 03:34 PM
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 02:16 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 12:22 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  Mid 90s: Forming Big 12, let Texas dictate BYU not being included. BYU would have been a balance to the power Texas had and MAYBE some of this would not have happened.

The Big XII was destined to be a Texas-centric conference...population, markets, and recruiting. The original divisional set up of the Big XII was horribly unbalanced...it was a huge fail

You may not remember, but CU was good then and NU was the late 90s Alabama. KSU was very good. The first couple of years were severely imbalanced to the North. But UT and OU got their acts together, Texas Tech got good, NU slipped and CU collapsed. (edit-see a couple others beat me to this point).
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 03:37 PM by bullet.)
07-26-2016 03:36 PM
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orangefan Offline
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 03:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 12:25 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 12 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

FIFY

UL may even have been the preferred pick for number 10, but was not willing to shoot its way out of the Big East early, which WVU was willing to do.

That's delusional fiction by UL fans. Remember they are the ethical ones. They hire only the most ethical people like Pitino and Petrino and only hire the most ethical hookers as well. 04-cheers

Not sure it was about being ethical. UL didn't have the stomach for the required litigation and the unknown settlement cost. They were gambling that they would get a spot later, which was a risky approach.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the Big East could not force WVU to stay. It was just a matter of what the financial settlement would be. WVU had the guts to take the bird in the hand and suffer through the litigation.
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2016 03:48 PM by orangefan.)
07-26-2016 03:48 PM
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 03:48 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 03:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 12:25 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-26-2016 11:23 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  FWIW, the rumor mill believed that Big 12 was all in on Louisville but vapor locked on who would be #12. Of course Big 10 faced that scenario and said the hell with it took Penn State and kicked the #12 can down the road.

FIFY

UL may even have been the preferred pick for number 10, but was not willing to shoot its way out of the Big East early, which WVU was willing to do.

That's delusional fiction by UL fans. Remember they are the ethical ones. They hire only the most ethical people like Pitino and Petrino and only hire the most ethical hookers as well. 04-cheers

Not sure it was about being ethical. UL didn't have the stomach for the required litigation and the unknown settlement cost. They were gambling that they would get a spot later, which was a risky approach.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the Big East could not force WVU to stay. It was just a matter of what the financial settlement would be. WVU had the guts to take the bird in the hand and suffer through the litigation.

He's just a Kentucky fan trying to get in a dig at Louisville.
07-26-2016 03:57 PM
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RE: It's time for the Big 12 to be honest with itself...
(07-26-2016 11:47 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  When they were down to 8 schools they should have added 6 schools instead of 2.
West Virginia, Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis
TCU & BYU

Then become the Big XIV
EAST
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State


WEST
Texas
Baylor
TCU
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
BYU

UConn would have been added to the ACC.
Left the Big East/American with South Florida, UCF, Houston, SMU, Tulsa, East Carolina, and Temple. I think a lot of things might have happened after with Houston & SMU going to the Mountain West possibly.
I think the American (different name) would have been a C-USA esc conference
EAST
Temple
Marshall
Old Dominion
East Carolina
Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee
UCF

WEST
South Florida
UAB
Southern Miss
Arkansas State
Tulane
Rice
Tulsa

Louisville will not be interesred in that! 07-coffee3
07-26-2016 04:27 PM
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