I think one thing that's pretty interesting- would we have totally lost the independents like we did? Or would schools like East Carolina have formed something similar to C-USA?

Eventually yes. The way bowl arrangements worked out,it would have been better for the Eastern schools to band together. It also helped the Big East keep Syracuse and Pitt for 20 years -- otherwise they could have gone to the ACC. Once PSU was in the Big 10, Miami, Pitt and Syracuse were the best of the independents (in both performance and name) that would have gone anywhere.

(07-13-2016 04:33 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I don't think it would change anything at that time, because the CCG was an afterthought: in fact it was more or less retrofitted by the SEC who discovered they were allowed to have one.

This. Penn State was the Big Ten's way to encroach on the large northeastern TV markets. The ACC added Florida State for football heft in the hope of getting a better TV deal. The Big 8 wanted UT and TAMU because with the sparse population of the Big 8 footprint the conference was not being offered a competitive TV deal. All of those expansions would have happened whether or not any conference wanted to or was allowed to hold a CCG.

A more interesting what-if question is: If Maryland had been available to the Big Ten in (or before) 2010, would the Big Ten have added Maryland instead of Nebraska and then remained at 12 schools through today? I think the answer is absolutely yes.

(07-15-2016 07:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Ah, good point!

Wait, why would Ark (still) leave the SWC in the 10 member universe? What was the reasoning/desire for getting out?

Arkansas wanted out of the SWC. At the time rampant cheating and Texas politics had become to much to deal with. Arkansas, Texas, and Texas A&M basically were caring the league in attendance. Baylor, Houston, TCU, and Texas Tech aren't the same programs today as they where back then.

(07-15-2016 12:13 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 04:33 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I don't think it would change anything at that time, because the CCG was an afterthought: in fact it was more or less retrofitted by the SEC who discovered they were allowed to have one.

This. Penn State was the Big Ten's way to encroach on the large northeastern TV markets. The ACC added Florida State for football heft in the hope of getting a better TV deal. The Big 8 wanted UT and TAMU because with the sparse population of the Big 8 footprint the conference was not being offered a competitive TV deal. All of those expansions would have happened whether or not any conference wanted to or was allowed to hold a CCG.

A more interesting what-if question is: If Maryland had been available to the Big Ten in (or before) 2010, would the Big Ten have added Maryland instead of Nebraska and then remained at 12 schools through today? I think the answer is absolutely yes.

When the AAC wanted Miami and Virginia Tech it needed a 12th to come with. If 12 was not the CG requirement they could have sat at 11 schools.

The the B1G with Penn State could have just swiped Maryland like you are suggesting without blowing up to 14.

(07-15-2016 04:50 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(07-15-2016 07:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Ah, good point!

Wait, why would Ark (still) leave the SWC in the 10 member universe? What was the reasoning/desire for getting out?

Arkansas wanted out of the SWC. At the time rampant cheating and Texas politics had become to much to deal with. Arkansas, Texas, and Texas A&M basically were caring the league in attendance. Baylor, Houston, TCU, and Texas Tech aren't the same programs today as they where back then.

The stadiums in 1990 in the SWC were more even back then.

Texas 77,809
TAMU 72,387
SMU 72,032
Rice 70,000
Houston 62,439
Arkansas 52,670
Baylor 50,000
Texas Tech 47,000
TCU 46,063

Contrast that with what they play in today.......

TAMU 102,733
Texas 100,119
Arkansas 72,000
Texas Tech 60,454
Rice 47,000
Baylor 45,140
TCU 45,000
Houston 40,000
SMU 32,000

Tech, Arkansas, TAMU, Texas all bumped up by 15k-25k seats. The other schools all reduced capacity.

(07-15-2016 10:06 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-15-2016 04:50 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(07-15-2016 07:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Ah, good point!

Wait, why would Ark (still) leave the SWC in the 10 member universe? What was the reasoning/desire for getting out?

Arkansas wanted out of the SWC. At the time rampant cheating and Texas politics had become to much to deal with. Arkansas, Texas, and Texas A&M basically were caring the league in attendance. Baylor, Houston, TCU, and Texas Tech aren't the same programs today as they where back then.

The stadiums in 1990 in the SWC were more even back then.

Texas 77,809
TAMU 72,387
SMU 72,032
Rice 70,000
Houston 62,439
Arkansas 52,670
Baylor 50,000
Texas Tech 47,000
TCU 46,063

Contrast that with what they play in today.......

TAMU 102,733
Texas 100,119
Arkansas 72,000
Texas Tech 60,454
Rice 47,000
Baylor 45,140
TCU 45,000
Houston 40,000
SMU 32,000

Tech, Arkansas, TAMU, Texas all bumped up by 15k-25k seats. The other schools all reduced capacity.

It wasn't just about stadium size. It was about support. Arkansas would go on the road and have more fans in attendance than the home team.

So looking back, do you ever wonder what would've happened if Ark had stayed in the SWC and then joined the Big 12? Perhaps by this point, Baylor and TCU would've been added in 2010 (instead of WV).

Arkansas could have been what is presently Oklahoma St, TCU or Baylor's current position as a consistent top 15/25 team in the country.

Aside from the year with McFadden & Jones running over everyone (shoulda coulda vs Florida in the SEC CCG), what really has Arkansas accomplished in the SEC? Feel free to clobber me for that comment, as I don't actually know if Ark has done much of anything in the SEC!

A Power Conference Big 8 could have easily gone west for BYU and/or Utah - it would be a natural connection from Colorado. Assuming the SWC were off limits, the alternative would have been to go east for someone like Louisville, Cincinnati, or Memphis. If the SWC were in play, I would think 2 of Arkansas, Texas, and Texas A&M would go. Maybe the Big 8 still expands to 12 with those three and Texas Tech even though it only needs 10 for a championship game.

Pac 12 (10) - no Utah, Colorado
Big 10 (10) - no Nebraska, Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers
ACC (10) - add Maryland; no Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Boston College, Louisville
SEC (10) - no Texas A&M, Arkansas, South Carolina, Missouri
Big 12 (10) - add Texas A&M, Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado; no Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, West Virginia
Big East (10) - Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, Boston College, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, South Carolina, Louisville, Temple (football only), Penn State (football only)

SWC (10) - Arkansas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, SMU, Houston, Tulane, Tulsa, Southern Miss, Rice

MAC (10) - no Buffalo, Northern Illinois
Big West (8) - San Jose State, Fresno State, Long Beach State, Cal State Fullerton, Pacific, UNLV, New Mexico State, Utah State
WAC (9) - Hawaii, San Diego State, Utah, BYU, Wyoming, Colorado State, Air Force, New Mexico, UTEP

Independents (10) - Notre Dame, Army, Navy, Northern Illinois, Arkansas State, Southwestern Louisiana, East Carolina, Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisiana Tech

If the SWC lost power conference status, I could see the WAC making a play for Texas Tech or Arkansas. The Big West then goes for two of Texas Tech, TCU, SMU, Rice, and Houston. If the Pacific and the 2 Cal State programs still get dropped, the Big West then grabs 3 more SWC schools. The SWC then refills from the independent ranks and eventually resembles today's AAC. Arkansas could eventually replace Temple in the Big East, although if Penn State came to town every 2 years, one would hope attendance would not be an issue.

Penn State could also try to form its own "P7" league with Arkansas, SWC leftovers, perhaps South Carolina and/or Louisville, and some remaining independents like Cincinnati, Tulane, and Memphis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(07-16-2016 10:57 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  So looking back, do you ever wonder what would've happened if Ark had stayed in the SWC and then joined the Big 12? Perhaps by this point, Baylor and TCU would've been added in 2010 (instead of WV).

Arkansas could have been what is presently Oklahoma St, TCU or Baylor's current position as a consistent top 15/25 team in the country.

Aside from the year with McFadden & Jones running over everyone (shoulda coulda vs Florida in the SEC CCG), what really has Arkansas accomplished in the SEC? Feel free to clobber me for that comment, as I don't actually know if Ark has done much of anything in the SEC!

Arkansas is a typical SEC program.

1. Spend a portion of the season ranked in the Top 10 (mandatory).
2. Have a highly touted national award candidate.
3. Pee down their legs at unexpected times to finish out of major bowl contention.

That is what they do.

(07-16-2016 10:57 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  So looking back, do you ever wonder what would've happened if Ark had stayed in the SWC and then joined the Big 12? Perhaps by this point, Baylor and TCU would've been added in 2010 (instead of WV).

Arkansas could have been what is presently Oklahoma St, TCU or Baylor's current position as a consistent top 15/25 team in the country.

Aside from the year with McFadden & Jones running over everyone (shoulda coulda vs Florida in the SEC CCG), what really has Arkansas accomplished in the SEC? Feel free to clobber me for that comment, as I don't actually know if Ark has done much of anything in the SEC!

(07-16-2016 11:54 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-16-2016 10:57 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  So looking back, do you ever wonder what would've happened if Ark had stayed in the SWC and then joined the Big 12? Perhaps by this point, Baylor and TCU would've been added in 2010 (instead of WV).

Arkansas could have been what is presently Oklahoma St, TCU or Baylor's current position as a consistent top 15/25 team in the country.

Aside from the year with McFadden & Jones running over everyone (shoulda coulda vs Florida in the SEC CCG), what really has Arkansas accomplished in the SEC? Feel free to clobber me for that comment, as I don't actually know if Ark has done much of anything in the SEC!

Arkansas is a typical SEC program.

1. Spend a portion of the season ranked in the Top 10 (mandatory).
2. Have a highly touted national award candidate.
3. Pee down their legs at unexpected times to finish out of major bowl contention.

That is what they do.

**** off with this. No reason for it.

(07-16-2016 10:57 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  So looking back, do you ever wonder what would've happened if Ark had stayed in the SWC and then joined the Big 12? Perhaps by this point, Baylor and TCU would've been added in 2010 (instead of WV).

Arkansas could have been what is presently Oklahoma St, TCU or Baylor's current position as a consistent top 15/25 team in the country.

Aside from the year with McFadden & Jones running over everyone (shoulda coulda vs Florida in the SEC CCG), what really has Arkansas accomplished in the SEC? Feel free to clobber me for that comment, as I don't actually know if Ark has done much of anything in the SEC!

That can gets kicked around a lot. For starters, Not certain that we would have gotten into the Big 12. Texas politics might have screwed us over. As for what we have done since joining the SEC. Well, we won a national title in basketball and like 30 something national titles in track and field since joining the SEC.

(07-15-2016 09:41 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-15-2016 12:13 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-13-2016 04:33 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I don't think it would change anything at that time, because the CCG was an afterthought: in fact it was more or less retrofitted by the SEC who discovered they were allowed to have one.

This. Penn State was the Big Ten's way to encroach on the large northeastern TV markets. The ACC added Florida State for football heft in the hope of getting a better TV deal. The Big 8 wanted UT and TAMU because with the sparse population of the Big 8 footprint the conference was not being offered a competitive TV deal. All of those expansions would have happened whether or not any conference wanted to or was allowed to hold a CCG.

A more interesting what-if question is: If Maryland had been available to the Big Ten in (or before) 2010, would the Big Ten have added Maryland instead of Nebraska and then remained at 12 schools through today? I think the answer is absolutely yes.

When the AAC wanted Miami and Virginia Tech it needed a 12th to come with. If 12 was not the CG requirement they could have sat at 11 schools.

The the B1G with Penn State could have just swiped Maryland like you are suggesting without blowing up to 14.

That was covered in the original post. That was 2004: not 1990. It likely would not have changed anything until then, and even then 11 teams is ugly for scheduling so it likely still would have added a 12th team. Remember when the big ten had 11 teams, Notre dame often played 2-3 big ten teams per year, which greatly eased the scheduling burden having 11 teams gives you the second half of the season.

(07-16-2016 10:57 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  So looking back, do you ever wonder what would've happened if Ark had stayed in the SWC and then joined the Big 12? Perhaps by this point, Baylor and TCU would've been added in 2010 (instead of WV).

Arkansas could have been what is presently Oklahoma St, TCU or Baylor's current position as a consistent top 15/25 team in the country.

TCU has had an excellent run the past 7-8 years, but since 1992, Arkansas compares favorably to Oklahoma St or Baylor. Baylor's had what, three recent good seasons? They've won 4 bowl games in all that time, and we know where they're heading now. Heck, in the past 5 years Arkansas has beaten up on three Big 12 teams in bowl games. Punished them.

And in the SEC, over the past 8 years, they are 4-4 versus LSU, 3-3 versus Texas A/M, 4-4 vs Ole Miss, and 5-3 versus Auburn. Only Mississippi State and Alabama have winning records versus Arkansas over that time.

Arkansas is respected by everybody in the SEC.

quo,

Fair enough. Seems I just never hear about them being in contention to win the division/conference, but it is a very tough conference!


higgs,

It's all just "what ifs". We're just talking football here. (Not to dismiss Ark's other achievements!)

(07-18-2016 09:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo,

Fair enough. Seems I just never hear about them being in contention to win the division/conference, but it is a very tough conference!

I think you're right as they are overshadowed in the SEC.

In the B12 they would have rivals in their backyard and be one of the most important schools in there along with Kansas, Texas and Oklahoma.

The first tier in the SEC seems to be TAMU, LSU, Tennessee, Alabama, UGA, Florida with Arkansas in there with Mississippi schools.

(07-18-2016 09:32 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 09:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo,

Fair enough. Seems I just never hear about them being in contention to win the division/conference, but it is a very tough conference!

I think you're right as they are overshadowed in the SEC.

In the B12 they would have rivals in their backyard and be one of the most important schools in there along with Kansas, Texas and Oklahoma.

The first tier in the SEC seems to be TAMU, LSU, Tennessee, Alabama, UGA, Florida with Arkansas in there with Mississippi schools.

Arkansas --- in my time visiting there --- has always felt like a southern state, no matter where one is within the state. It's considerably different culturally versus Oklahoma or Kansas or even Texas. The SEC works from that point-of-view.

The school is typically decently competitive in football, as well. 3 SEC Championship game appearances, just haven't won one. They were close to winning the West in 2010 & 2011.

The geography of Fayetteville has always been weird though. Fayetteville is closer to all of K-State, KU, OU, TCU and OSU, than it is to ANY SEC school (outside of recent addition Missouri).