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Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #141
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia?
(07-08-2016 10:49 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  I think it is a great point that was already made, and then mentioned again by stever: the "chuck n' duck + read option with a running back at QB" type offense was somewhat of a novelty back then.

Now I think the novelty is the inside run heavy, smash mouth, pro set offense. Part of the reason NDSU has done so well at the FCS level, in my opinion.

yeah. And it's why a team like Stanford has done so well now like you say in FBS for the same reason as NDSU....
07-08-2016 11:02 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #142
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia?
(07-08-2016 06:45 AM)TIGERBUDDY Wrote:  
(06-30-2016 11:52 AM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  Hard to get riled up when your closet conference mate is 1000 miles away. West Virginia borders Ohio, Kentucky, Virginia, Maryland, & Pennsylvania. The play semi-consistently Maryland other than that they dont play anybody close that fans can get fired up about and talk trash at the office to. The ACC has shunned WVU for decades but I believe they're more valuable for the ACC THAN ANY OTHER CONFERENCE!!! They will travel to Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, both of the Virginia schools, and all of the Carolina schools. Look at the attendance numbers in the Olde Big East. WVA & Va Tech dominated the attendance figures. Their basketball program is solid. There is a lot to like about WVU.
their issue has been in this day and age academics and a lack of population. I'll just say this in conclusion... when Joe Pa wanted to start an Eastern All Sports League. WVU would have been a pillar.

02-13-banana WVU needs MEMPHIS and Cincinnati in the Big XII

It needed Pitt and Rutgers IMO.

07-coffee3
07-08-2016 12:31 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #143
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia?
(07-08-2016 10:49 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  I think it is a great point that was already made, and then mentioned again by stever: the "chuck n' duck + read option with a running back at QB" type offense was somewhat of a novelty back then.

Now I think the novelty is the inside run heavy, smash mouth, pro set offense. Part of the reason NDSU has done so well at the FCS level, in my opinion.

Damn, do you all have me on ignore. I said that even above him. 05-stirthepot 04-cheers

(07-07-2016 10:21 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  Now I will fully admit I don't know how well those WV teams would do in today's big 12, whereas in his WV heyday, his offense was unique, and people were not prepared for it, whereas today most of the Big 12 runs some variation of it, which would affect how successful he would be.
07-08-2016 01:31 PM
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PA-GAMECOCK Offline
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Post: #144
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia?
Considering the other options with L'Ville to the B-12, UConn to the ACC, and WV left in the AAC collecting $2 million dollars a year verses $30 million dollars a year with out Rutgers, Syracuse, and Pitt too - it was a great move on WV's part. Even BB powers ND, Villanova, and Georgetown were moving on at the time. ND to the ACC and the C7 to their own new conference even if they had to leave the BE name behind. I think WV can live with the pain from the so called "hurt" for their move to the B-12. WV would be incurring long distance travel pains traveling to Oklahoma, Texas, and Florida anyway had they missed the Golden Ring with the B-12 and remained in the AAC. Instead of playing Texas and Oklahoma in FB and Kansas in BB every year which fills its stadium and BB arena they would be playing SMU, Houston, and Tulsa, and still be traveling to Florida for all of their sports.

With WV's close rivals moving on too at the time, the BE was becoming a major cluster with everyone looking for a life boat from the sinking Titanic and the conference members had even rejected an ESPN TV package that would have paid the it members millions. The "HURT" would have been worse if they had stayed.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2016 01:27 AM by PA-GAMECOCK.)
07-09-2016 01:22 AM
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SMUfan Offline
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Post: #145
WVU
Was West Virginia given any promises when they joined the Big 12? Such as a travel partner in the near future?

The reason I asked, is that if the Big 12 does not expand, is WVU able to leave the Big 12 without penalty?

Would the ACC want WVU as the 16th school in all sports, except for ND as the 15.5 in football?
07-09-2016 12:36 PM
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TodgeRodge Offline
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Post: #146
RE: WVU
(07-09-2016 12:36 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  Was West Virginia given any promises when they joined the Big 12? Such as a travel partner in the near future?

The reason I asked, is that if the Big 12 does not expand, is WVU able to leave the Big 12 without penalty?

Would the ACC want WVU as the 16th school in all sports, except for ND as the 15.5 in football?

1. no

2. no

3. probably

4. travel partners are to benefit the teams TRAVELING TO a particular team or in the case of travel partners PAIRS of teams they are not to benefit the teams being traveled to

as an example using a team called X so that no one takes this and starts a thread that their university is first in line for the Big 12

if a member of the Big 12 is traveling TO WVU the benefit of a travel partner is that team X would be located close to WVU and then the member that is traveling to WVU would be able to play a second game against X before traveling back home
07-09-2016 12:45 PM
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Nebraskafan Offline
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Post: #147
RE: WVU
(07-09-2016 12:36 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  Was West Virginia given any promises when they joined the Big 12? Such as a travel partner in the near future?

The reason I asked, is that if the Big 12 does not expand, is WVU able to leave the Big 12 without penalty?

Would the ACC want WVU as the 16th school in all sports, except for ND as the 15.5 in football?

Nothing that I heard of otherwise you would have those dumb WV twitter people blabbing on about it on a daily basis.

No.

Doubtful. The ACC passed on WVU previously even though that is where WV should be at.

As long as the Big 12 stays around that is where WVU will remain. The B1G, the SEC and the ACC aren't going to pound at doors to get WVU.
07-09-2016 12:49 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #148
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
(07-05-2016 10:05 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Here are West Virginia's Sagarin Power Ratings vs SOS ratings. If they lost more games simply because of a harder schedule, their power ratings should not be affected much. Only their SOS.

-------------------------> Best WVa teams ever? (5 losses over 3 years)
2005 = 88.69 vs 71.44
2006 = 88.64 vs 73.08
2007 = 92.29 vs 73.61
-------------------------> Return to normalcy (15 losses over 4 years)
2008 = 79.27 vs 72.09
2009 = 78.55 vs 73.71
2010 = 78.03 vs 70.85
2011 = 81.78 vs 70.12
------------------------> Big 12 adjustment period
2012 = 75.44 vs 74.85
2013 = 66.75 vs 74.20
-------------------------> Return to Normalcy (11 losses over two years)
2014 = 78.81 vs 76.39
2015 = 81.02 vs 73.08

It appears that, after a two-year adjustment period, West Virginia has returned in 2014-15 to its normal power rating range seen in 2008-11. However, it is losing nearly 2 more games per year in 2014-15 than 2008-11.

West Virginia is losing more games because the schedule is about 3 points per game harder since changing conferences.

Looking at this, I am inclined to say that the Big 12 has not hurt the football program (if you throw out the adjustment period). Nor has it helped. The football program is operating at the exact same level today it was operating at in the last 4 years before the move.

To update this post through 10 games in 2016:

-------------------------> Return to Normalcy (13 losses over three years)
2014 = 78.81 vs 76.39
2015 = 81.02 vs 73.08
2016 = 81.37 vs 74.11

West Virginia continues to operate at its 2008-2011 Big East level in Big 12 play.

Affirming the conclusion that Big 12 membership has not hurt West Virginia's football efficiency.
11-22-2016 11:20 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #149
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
It was a silly theory in the first place.

Would West Virginia rather be playing all of their historical rivals in the ACC, or against all of those football behemoths in the SEC? Of course they would on both counts.

However, those weren't options at the time and aren't options now either. Their options were staying in the AAC, going Independent, or joining the Big 12. They of course chose Option No. 3 and it was pretty much a no-brainer from the start.
11-22-2016 02:13 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #150
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
(11-22-2016 02:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  It was a silly theory in the first place.

Would West Virginia rather be playing all of their historical rivals in the ACC, or against all of those football behemoths in the SEC? Of course they would on both counts.

However, those weren't options at the time and aren't options now either. Their options were staying in the AAC, going Independent, or joining the Big 12. They of course chose Option No. 3 and it was pretty much a no-brainer from the start.

It does make you wonder what the AAC would be like with WVU (3 BCS bowls and perennially ranked in the Big East).

Let's say the Big 12 invites Air Force instead of WVU, so option #3 wasn't on the table.

So, the Big East loses Pitt, Syracuse, and Louisville (and TCU before they even got there).

WVU remains with Rutgers, Cincinnati, UConn, and USF. Where do they go from there? The next announcement was UCF, SMU, Houston, Boise St. and SDSU. Within the next 2-3 months, Navy, Memphis, and Temple accept invites. Rutgers then bolts for the B1G. Does the expansion list look different if WVU is in the AAC?

Do Boise St. and SDSU keep their commitment if WVU is still around? (EDIT: And Air Force gone from the MWC?) Does the AAC stay at 10 schools when Boise and SDSU bolt? Or, which current AAC member is left out?

So, the 2014-16 AAC could have been...

EAST: WVU, Cincinnati, UConn, Temple, USF, UCF
WEST: Navy, Memphis, Houston, SMU, Boise St., SDSU

What sort of TV contract would this conference land? Would it have an annual top-10 contender? Any other G5 conference even have a chance at the NY6 bid?
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2016 03:00 PM by YNot.)
11-22-2016 02:59 PM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #151
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
(06-30-2016 09:08 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  From 2005-11, West Virginia won at least 9 games a year in the Big East. West Virginia qualified for, and won, three BCS bowls.

West Virginia joined the Big 12 in 2012. Since then, they have won 26 football games in four years.

Season tickets, which climbed from 27,664 in 2005 to 37,341 in 2012 fell to 28,837 in 2015, and the 2016 pace is lagging 2015.

West Virginia has lost millions of dollars in season ticket revenue as sales are down 25% since their first year in the Big 12. This eats into the conference revenue upgrade they received by joining the Big 12 from the Big East.

West Virginia paid $20M to leave the Big East. According to Form 990s, here is what West Virginia has received from the Big 12:

Year 1: $8.8M
Year 2: $14.2M
Year 3: $20.3M
Year 4: $30M (estimated - just announced)

So over 4 years, West Virginia has made $53M in net conference revenue by making the switch, or $13M per year.

They were making that much in the old Big East. And they were selling more football tickets in the old Big East.

So far, the Big 12 has not been a windfall but instead a negative revenue experience compared to the old Big East.

That will change in the long run. And it's not like WVa had much choice after Pitt and Syracuse bolted for the ACC.

But unless and until West Virginia starts going to NY6 bowls again from the Big 12, the promise of extra future money seems pretty hollow. Extra future money doesn't buy much happiness.

Winning does.

Now discuss the 2-million a year Houston makes playing in the American! West Virginia has still netted $11-million more per year than Houston playing in the American! 07-coffee3
11-22-2016 03:55 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #152
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
(11-22-2016 02:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  It was a silly theory in the first place.

Their options were staying in the AAC, going Independent, or joining the Big 12. They of course chose Option No. 3 and it was pretty much a no-brainer from the start.

Your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the original question.

Whether it was "the right move" was not the question.

The question was: Has the result of the move been postive for (or has it hurt) the football program?

The distinction is not subtle. Many "correct" decisions don't turn out well.

Think of it like this: "How is the correct decision West Virgina made working out for them in football?"

The answer turns out to be:

1. After an adjustment period, they are back to operating as usual on the field;
2. But the schedule is harder, resulting in more losses;
3. Which has negatively impacted their season ticket sales.
11-22-2016 03:56 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #153
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
(11-22-2016 03:55 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Now discuss the 2-million a year Houston makes playing in the American! 07-coffee3

Here's what we can do with a puny $2M:



11-22-2016 04:02 PM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #154
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
(11-22-2016 04:02 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(11-22-2016 03:55 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Now discuss the 2-million a year Houston makes playing in the American! 07-coffee3

Here's what we can do with a puny $2M:




And Herman will be at Texas or LSU next year. Louisville's train will roll on. Our women's basketball makes more than you. 07-coffee3
11-22-2016 04:11 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #155
RE: Has Big 12 Membership Hurt West Virginia? [merged]
You think OUR train's gonna stop rolling if Herman leaves?

With a new stadium, record season ticket sales, a new IPF opening in 2017, a billionaire regent and the opportunity to win a lot of games, we'll have the pick of the litter.

Briles, Sumlin, Herman, the next guy. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.
11-22-2016 04:53 PM
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