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Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 09:40 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  NoDak,

Just a second there, professor. Are you talking about the MVC, or the MVFC??

Technically, if NCAA rules allowed it, the 10 teams in the MVFC could have decided to make that into a bonafide FBS conference itself, with those 10 teams becoming full members of that new FBS conference. (Name change would be needed)

While that would leave Bradley, Drake, Evansville, Loyola CHI and possibly Wichita hung out to dry, in the MVC, it at least makes some logical sense.


But it almost sounds like you're implying that the MVC would have moved up to FBS, with football members IL St, IN St, UNI, MO St, S ILL and perhaps WSU, then non-football members Bradley, Drake, Evansville and Loyola-CHI. Then you'd need to add two more full football members, I guess Idaho and NM St from the WAC. Doesn't sound realistic.

The MVC has existing contracts and NCAA money that is guaranteed. The MVFC has none of those and W Ill, USD, SDSU, NDSU, and YSU don't offer the MVC enough to even be on its short list of possible members. But somehow XDSU fans always get in a tizzy that they aren't included, as if they have inheritance rights.

Denver and NMSU would have come aboard. Idaho and Seattle would have been told to take a hike. Texas FCS schools like Sam Houston St, S F Austin, and Lamar would have been offered to get a Texas recruiting and media market presence. Maybe ORU too just to satisfy the nonfb schools. WSU would have started FBS. UNI offers all the markets that the Dakota schools would bring (MSP), so the XDSU's would not have been a priority add.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 11:38 AM by NoDak.)
06-30-2016 11:23 AM
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Post: #42
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 11:23 AM)NoDak Wrote:  
(06-30-2016 09:40 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  NoDak,

Just a second there, professor. Are you talking about the MVC, or the MVFC??

Technically, if NCAA rules allowed it, the 10 teams in the MVFC could have decided to make that into a bonafide FBS conference itself, with those 10 teams becoming full members of that new FBS conference. (Name change would be needed)

While that would leave Bradley, Drake, Evansville, Loyola CHI and possibly Wichita hung out to dry, in the MVC, it at least makes some logical sense.


But it almost sounds like you're implying that the MVC would have moved up to FBS, with football members IL St, IN St, UNI, MO St, S ILL and perhaps WSU, then non-football members Bradley, Drake, Evansville and Loyola-CHI. Then you'd need to add two more full football members, I guess Idaho and NM St from the WAC. Doesn't sound realistic.

The MVC has existing contracts and NCAA money that is guaranteed. The MVFC has none of those and W Ill, USD, SDSU, NDSU, and YSU don't offer the MVC enough to even be on its short list of possible members. But somehow XDSU fans always get in a tizzy that they aren't included, as if they have inheritance rights.

Denver and NMSU would have come aboard. Idaho and Seattle would have been told to take a hike. Texas FCS schools like Sam Houston St, S F Austin, and Lamar would have been offered to get a Texas recruiting and media market presence. Maybe ORU too just to satisfy the nonfb schools. WSU would have started FBS. UNI offers all the markets that the Dakota schools would bring (MSP), so the XDSU's would have been a priority add.

Since you take to gospel what newspapers writers say, Kansas City Star had NDSU and SDSU on the short list for MVC expansion. Writer who wrote that is very, very connected. MVC was just looking for a private, big city school this past time to replace Creighton.
06-30-2016 11:39 AM
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Shox Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
I think your wrong Nodak. NDSU and SDSU are gaining steam with other Valley members interms of perception. If we do add Football, dont be surprised to see NDSU and SDSU added as full members of the Valley. The sole idea would be to protect the Valley in the event of a Wichita State departure. If and when that happens, the Valley could backfill with USD.

West
USD
SDSU
Mo State
NDSU
UNI
Drake

East
Indiana State
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Bradley
Loyola
Evansville

[Image: 7a910629-14cb-41cf-9055-03d6eacd8db3.png]
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 12:36 PM by Shox.)
06-30-2016 11:40 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
Nodak #44,

That scenario was/is even less likely than FBS WAC. Though, it really doesn't affect the Summit except to steal ORU - which doesn't belong - and Denver, which I only support in as much to be a friendly face for UND, if it were one day added.
06-30-2016 11:48 AM
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SubGod22 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 11:40 AM)Shox Wrote:  I think your wrong Nodak. NDSU and SDSU are gaining steam with other Valley members interms of perception. If we do add Football, dont be surprised to see NDSU and SDSU added as full members of the Valley. The sole idea would be to protect the Valley in the event of a Wichita State departure. If and when that happens, the Valley could backfill with USD.

West
USD
SDSU
Mo State
NDSU
UNI
Drake

East
Indiana State
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Bradley
Loyola
Evansville

This does have some validity to it. If the MVC had wise leadership, which it doesn't, they'd have already attempted to add the XDSU schools and move the MVC to 12. Both programs would be in the upper half of the MVC basketball standings and would be a great help to the likes of Wichita and UNI and any other school that puts a good team and schedule together. I think their additions would give the MVC a better chance of getting 2 or 3 teams into the NCAA on a more regular basis.

I will admit that I don't know much about the non MVC teams in the MVFC outside of the XDSU's that get talked about so much on message boards, but if the MVC had any desire to pull football in under the actual MVC banner, this would allow them to do it and they could either eject the remaining schools or let them be in as football only additions. I have no idea if there would be any advantage to any of that though and may be more headache than it's worth.

But despite the location of the Dakotas, they would strengthen the MVC as a whole if added. The downside for them is they'd no longer get the basketball tournament in Fargo, but I could always hope their addition would increase the chances of it being moved to KC. As a fan of Wichita, I'd still want out if we landed the right offer, but having the XDSU's would make the Valley more attractive based on strength.

We still desire a Texas presence though. And the MVC will never give that to us. And they'll also never give us FBS status unless rules change.
06-30-2016 11:51 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
Problem with that, of course, is that MVC has an unwritten rule that private/public schools have to be balanced. Bradley, Drake, etc. aren't going to sit by and watch the balance shift to the publics by +2.
06-30-2016 12:07 PM
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SubGod22 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 12:07 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Problem with that, of course, is that MVC has an unwritten rule that private/public schools have to be balanced. Bradley, Drake, etc. aren't going to sit by and watch the balance shift to the publics by +2.

I understand that and that's why I said if we had good leadership...

Bradley might actually vote in favor of it because they actually care about basketball. But that still leaves Drake, Evansville and Loyola and you'd need at least one of them to favor it to pass I believe. Evansville will whine about the balance but it's really about their budget as they want to be able to bus everywhere to save money. Drake is struggling in a lot of ways. I don't know what Loyola is doing but they aren't doing much.
06-30-2016 12:13 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
Well, if/when WSU leaves the MVC, it will be a private added - probably Valpo.
06-30-2016 12:19 PM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
South Dakota's new arena is going to be a major plus for them as well. NDSU remodeling their arena. Both are copied off the McLeod Center/Knapp Center type, which is fine. You don't have to have the JQH, Koch, Qwest Center type facility.
06-30-2016 12:35 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
One, the MVC/WAC is a rumor. Two, the MVFC is very different than the MVC. I know it can be confusing to someone living in a fantasy land but the two are separate entities.

UNI didn't announce they "wanted" FBS they announced they would study FBS. Indiana State can barely afford FCS and are going nowhere. Illinois State has talked about FBS but there is no move there to move up. Misery State is a mess and will not be moving anywhere anytime soon. YSU could go FBS and are likely the only MVFC school right now I could see go but they would likely prefer an invite to the CAA. The reality is almost everything you and David St post is fantasy made up by taking small tidbits of "fact" and twist the meaning to fit an agenda. Yours, you hate NDSU and know that UND has failed miserably in the move up compared to the school(s) to the south. David St? Who knows. He lives in a world where facts don't exist.

The Texas schools (your newest fantasy) are not moving to the WAC now that one has set up a home and home with UND. The Montana schools are not moving up. The rest of the BSC can't afford to move up. You are left with Idaho (already moving down) and NMSU who want a SBC, CUSA or MWC invite. WSU may or may not add FB. To add it would cost TENS OF MILLIONS in infrastructure, coaches, scholarships and adding 4 women's sports.

You may not like it, but there is a better chance that the other three, or at least two "Dakota" schools end up as full members of the MVC than there is of a newly created Southwestern (your newest twist) WAC/FBS.

(06-29-2016 09:16 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(06-29-2016 11:52 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  When has the MVFC ever stated it wanted to move up to FBS?

Hint... NEVER!!!

(06-28-2016 08:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  If Arkansas Tech wants to upgrade to D2? They need to add at least 3 men's sports, and 3 women's sports. While I was attended there, they dropped women's tennis and swimming and diving teams. They still have both the pool and the tennis court.

Now, we have seen on this board and other places that both MVFC and Big Sky wants to move up to FBS status.

Lamar, Sam Houston State, SFA and maybe McNeese State could move up. Arkansas Tech, Central Oklahoma, Tarleton State and Texas A&M-Commerce could replace them. West Texas A&M could join the MVFC as number 12. Their normal rivals are New Mexico, New Mexico State, UTEP and Texas Tech.

Could a Southern or OVC also want to move up as a whole? Maybe Jacksonville State, Eastern Kentucky and some others could join forces somehow?

MVFC:
Illinois State
Indiana State
Wichita State
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Youngstown State
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
West Texas A&M
Lamar
Sam Houston State

David St is correct. The MVC tried to merge with the WAC when it was down to four teams and purge Idaho and Seattle from the merged league. WAC Commish Hurd mentioned a Midwest FCS league that wanted to merge with the WAC, but Idaho and Seattle blocked it for obvious reasons.

Back in 2011, UNI and Ind St both had articles about moving to FBS in their local papers. Google them because they exist. The MVC clearly wanted to merge with the WAC and take on Denver and NMSU and become an FBS league. But that doesn't fit with the spin the XDSU's are giving out now does it?
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 12:47 PM by jacksfan29.)
06-30-2016 12:45 PM
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Shox Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 12:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well, if/when WSU leaves the MVC, it will be a private added - probably Valpo.

If they add Valpo and go 5/5, you can count out ISUr, MoState, and to a lesser extent UNI as long term members of the Valley.
06-30-2016 01:25 PM
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SubGod22 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 01:25 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(06-30-2016 12:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well, if/when WSU leaves the MVC, it will be a private added - probably Valpo.

If they add Valpo and go 5/5, you can count out ISUr, MoState, and to a lesser extent UNI as long term members of the Valley.

The way the MVC is going, if/when Wichita leaves they will honor the balance and take a public school. This school will be in or near a market that they don't register in like Loyola was. Odds are it'll be UIC, SIU-Edwardsville or UMKC. At that point, you'll probably see the same schools look for ways out as they'll only drag the conference down more. They may consider Omaha as well...

Elgin and company haven't figured out that markets only matter if you can acquire TV deals that actually pay out instead of just begging to be shown on TV and getting no money at all.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 01:46 PM by SubGod22.)
06-30-2016 01:45 PM
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HHOOTter Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
Time 2 “deflate” all the Hot Air
of WSU interest in restarting f-ball

No Koch Broth’s are alumni of WSU (Harvard, MIT, etc)
Koch Family foundations have given
several $$$$ to not only WSU but
more $$$ goes 2 the community of Wichita
in supporting community events & the arts

WSU has received donations from the
various Koch family foundations
but most of those “funds” hav been given towards
political, academic, & educational activities as well as the arts

No way would that foundation
(A very conservative foundation @ that)
Would “approve” say $150 million?
on a speculative of rebuilding/re-establishing the football program?
vs. putting that kind of money in a number of grad programs @ WSU
from Areo Space engineering to the Business School to the Music school.

Also, it would B a Loooonnnnnggg time to see any profit
& a very highly/speculative venture w/ ever
increasing cost, legal issues, & expenditures.
& what’s the goal?
AAC/MWC status in 5-6 yrs?

In that same 5-6 yrs time period,
little ‘ol KU & KSU will have “received”
over $150 million in TV revenue alone,
while WSU would still B scrapping & spending,
just 2 stay afloat.

If WSU’s intent was 2 compete @ the FCS level
that’s doable,
but as many have suggested
WSU has vision of greener f-ball pastures:

WSU will NEVER reach P5 status
What conference will take WSU as a f-ball mbr only?
What will WSU lose/gain if they leave the Valley?

WSU would "settle" to work their way up the “ladder”
2 reach MWC/AAC status in 5-6 yrs?
4 what? a 2-4 million a yr TV guarantee?
vs. a minimum of yrly $15-20 million f-ball operational cost?

They've done studies on adding to & increasing
seating & donor boxes in Koch (B-Ball) arena.
Seating could increase to over 13K
Cost range is under 25 million on total improvements
A much more "fruitful" expenditures of $$$ & resources
w/ much quicker & immediate results:
Increased season tix sells in B-ball
w/ an increase of 3-4K in total tix sales
for @ least 15 games per season.

If WSU Prez & AD are wise
they’ll look @ other sport improvement options
improvement of baseball/softball stature
(Hockey Field/Ice, Beach volleyball. Rowing, etc)
to increase visibility & marketability
w/out wiping out the bank account
on a highly speculative venture

Plus the city of Wichita is NOT
in a highly populated state w/ great f-ball interest
(FL/Texas/Calf/Georgia/Ohio/Penn/SEC Country/etc.)

In fact, state of Kansas only produced
6 Blue Chip f-ball recruits over 5 yrs (2013-17)
State of Oklahoma, just South of them, & next to Texas
Produced 19 Blue Chips over the same time period
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 02:09 PM by HHOOTter.)
06-30-2016 02:08 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
Sub & Shox,

Current is 4 private/6 public, why wouldn't they add Valpo to get to 5/5 ?


Where are IL St, IN St, UNI, MO St and S Ill reasonably going to go?? Seems like any other regional DI conf (non-FB and FCS) would be a downgrade in bball. Don't think the MAC would take any. Maybe Sun Belt for MO St.
06-30-2016 02:31 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
And you still take seriously NMSU going to the Horizon. What a joke.

When Loyola was added, XDSU's weren't given even a courtesy mention, but UMKC was. The MVFC doesn't really matter to the MVC.
(06-30-2016 12:45 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  One, the MVC/WAC is a rumor. Two, the MVFC is very different than the MVC. I know it can be confusing to someone living in a fantasy land but the two are separate entities.

UNI didn't announce they "wanted" FBS they announced they would study FBS. Indiana State can barely afford FCS and are going nowhere. Illinois State has talked about FBS but there is no move there to move up. Misery State is a mess and will not be moving anywhere anytime soon. YSU could go FBS and are likely the only MVFC school right now I could see go but they would likely prefer an invite to the CAA. The reality is almost everything you and David St post is fantasy made up by taking small tidbits of "fact" and twist the meaning to fit an agenda. Yours, you hate NDSU and know that UND has failed miserably in the move up compared to the school(s) to the south. David St? Who knows. He lives in a world where facts don't exist.

The Texas schools (your newest fantasy) are not moving to the WAC now that one has set up a home and home with UND. The Montana schools are not moving up. The rest of the BSC can't afford to move up. You are left with Idaho (already moving down) and NMSU who want a SBC, CUSA or MWC invite. WSU may or may not add FB. To add it would cost TENS OF MILLIONS in infrastructure, coaches, scholarships and adding 4 women's sports.

You may not like it, but there is a better chance that the other three, or at least two "Dakota" schools end up as full members of the MVC than there is of a newly created Southwestern (your newest twist) WAC/FBS.

(06-29-2016 09:16 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(06-29-2016 11:52 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  When has the MVFC ever stated it wanted to move up to FBS?

Hint... NEVER!!!

(06-28-2016 08:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  If Arkansas Tech wants to upgrade to D2? They need to add at least 3 men's sports, and 3 women's sports. While I was attended there, they dropped women's tennis and swimming and diving teams. They still have both the pool and the tennis court.

Now, we have seen on this board and other places that both MVFC and Big Sky wants to move up to FBS status.

Lamar, Sam Houston State, SFA and maybe McNeese State could move up. Arkansas Tech, Central Oklahoma, Tarleton State and Texas A&M-Commerce could replace them. West Texas A&M could join the MVFC as number 12. Their normal rivals are New Mexico, New Mexico State, UTEP and Texas Tech.

Could a Southern or OVC also want to move up as a whole? Maybe Jacksonville State, Eastern Kentucky and some others could join forces somehow?

MVFC:
Illinois State
Indiana State
Wichita State
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Youngstown State
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
West Texas A&M
Lamar
Sam Houston State

David St is correct. The MVC tried to merge with the WAC when it was down to four teams and purge Idaho and Seattle from the merged league. WAC Commish Hurd mentioned a Midwest FCS league that wanted to merge with the WAC, but Idaho and Seattle blocked it for obvious reasons.

Back in 2011, UNI and Ind St both had articles about moving to FBS in their local papers. Google them because they exist. The MVC clearly wanted to merge with the WAC and take on Denver and NMSU and become an FBS league. But that doesn't fit with the spin the XDSU's are giving out now does it?
06-30-2016 02:33 PM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
MVC was looking for 1 school, not 2 when they added Loyola. XDSUs are a package deal.
06-30-2016 03:02 PM
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Shox Offline
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RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 02:08 PM)HHOOTter Wrote:  Time 2 “deflate” all the Hot Air
of WSU interest in restarting f-ball

No Koch Broth’s are alumni of WSU (Harvard, MIT, etc)
Koch Family foundations have given
several $$$$ to not only WSU but
more $$$ goes 2 the community of Wichita
in supporting community events & the arts

WSU has received donations from the
various Koch family foundations
but most of those “funds” hav been given towards
political, academic, & educational activities as well as the arts

No way would that foundation
(A very conservative foundation @ that)
Would “approve” say $150 million?
on a speculative of rebuilding/re-establishing the football program?
vs. putting that kind of money in a number of grad programs @ WSU
from Areo Space engineering to the Business School to the Music school.

Also, it would B a Loooonnnnnggg time to see any profit
& a very highly/speculative venture w/ ever
increasing cost, legal issues, & expenditures.
& what’s the goal?
AAC/MWC status in 5-6 yrs?

In that same 5-6 yrs time period,
little ‘ol KU & KSU will have “received”
over $150 million in TV revenue alone,
while WSU would still B scrapping & spending,
just 2 stay afloat.

If WSU’s intent was 2 compete @ the FCS level
that’s doable,
but as many have suggested
WSU has vision of greener f-ball pastures:

WSU will NEVER reach P5 status
What conference will take WSU as a f-ball mbr only?
What will WSU lose/gain if they leave the Valley?

WSU would "settle" to work their way up the “ladder”
2 reach MWC/AAC status in 5-6 yrs?
4 what? a 2-4 million a yr TV guarantee?
vs. a minimum of yrly $15-20 million f-ball operational cost?

They've done studies on adding to & increasing
seating & donor boxes in Koch (B-Ball) arena.
Seating could increase to over 13K
Cost range is under 25 million on total improvements
A much more "fruitful" expenditures of $$$ & resources
w/ much quicker & immediate results:
Increased season tix sells in B-ball
w/ an increase of 3-4K in total tix sales
for @ least 15 games per season.

If WSU Prez & AD are wise
they’ll look @ other sport improvement options
improvement of baseball/softball stature
(Hockey Field/Ice, Beach volleyball. Rowing, etc)
to increase visibility & marketability
w/out wiping out the bank account
on a highly speculative venture

Plus the city of Wichita is NOT
in a highly populated state w/ great f-ball interest
(FL/Texas/Calf/Georgia/Ohio/Penn/SEC Country/etc.)

In fact, state of Kansas only produced
6 Blue Chip f-ball recruits over 5 yrs (2013-17)
State of Oklahoma, just South of them, & next to Texas
Produced 19 Blue Chips over the same time period

Lol @ Tulsa fan. Afraid we will steal the spotlight, again? If the Koch's don't support WSU, then why is their an arena on campus called Koch arena? Yes, it will take more than Koch to get this done. It will have to have community wide support to get it done. Anyways, you think it would be wiser to add ice Hockey rather than Football in Wichita, Kansas, to attract more traditional students? Come on man......
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 03:19 PM by Shox.)
06-30-2016 03:10 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 03:02 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  MVC was looking for 1 school, not 2 when they added Loyola. XDSUs are a package deal.

When the MVFC replaced WKU, only SDSU got an offer. SDSU insisted upon NDSU or they wouldn't join as a good little brother, so NDSU got an offer too.

So Mo St and Wichita St would both have to leave at the same time for the XDSU's to get offers? The private/public balance would be screwed up if they went to 12. 14 is too big.

If the MVC wants a basketball and football school, Murray St is a much better choice.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2016 03:19 PM by NoDak.)
06-30-2016 03:14 PM
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SubGod22 Offline
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RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 02:31 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Sub & Shox,

Current is 4 private/6 public, why wouldn't they add Valpo to get to 5/5 ?


Where are IL St, IN St, UNI, MO St and S Ill reasonably going to go?? Seems like any other regional DI conf (non-FB and FCS) would be a downgrade in bball. Don't think the MAC would take any. Maybe Sun Belt for MO St.

Because I don't think the public schools will allow it is why. Especially considering the private schools are pretty much the bottom 4 in the Valley when it comes to athletics.

I don't know where they'll go, but if the MVC continues to replace teams with teams that will finish near the bottom and bring nothing else to the table then they'll look elsewhere. We've already lost ground in basketball and others have gained quite a bit and if the top of the conference leaves for one of those nearby in ranking, that conference will easily move ahead of the MVC.
06-30-2016 03:29 PM
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SubGod22 Offline
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Posts: 1,887
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I Root For: Wichita
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Post: #60
RE: Wichita State Release The Findings On Starting Football
(06-30-2016 03:14 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(06-30-2016 03:02 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  MVC was looking for 1 school, not 2 when they added Loyola. XDSUs are a package deal.

When the MVFC replaced WKU, only SDSU got an offer. SDSU insisted upon NDSU or they wouldn't join as a good little brother, so NDSU got an offer too.

So Mo St and Wichita St would both have to leave at the same time for the XDSU's to get offers? The private/public balance would be screwed up if they went to 12. 14 is too big.

If the MVC wants a basketball and football school, Murray St is a much better choice.

Murray State has already been rejected because they would need a place to put football and the MVFC has already told them to piss off. Hell, there's no guarantee that if Wichita stays FCS for a while that the MVFC will even let us in.

Odds are whoever would replace us should we leave is going to be a non-football playing public.
06-30-2016 03:32 PM
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