The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(04-27-2018 11:02 AM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:14 AM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:32 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  People will find excuses no matter what lol.

We had 2 bad loss on the season....

Other losses (all but 1 very competitive):

47 (3x)
45
86

We finished top 75 in KenPom for a reason (which actually takes into account how you play; close losses, big wins, etc.)

Would love for us to consistently be top 75, but it hasn't happened in my lifetime. We have had very few seasons being one of the top 75 teams in the country.

I love Kenpom, and I look at it religiously, but there is really no measure for how a system matches up with opponents. We dominated certain opponents because of their style vs. ours. It was beautiful to watch us play against teams that played no defense. We absolutely throttled those teams. Those numbers help raise our Kenpom numbers. I tracked it throughout the year.

Edit: If I am not correct about this, then explain to me why we lose to the same systems year in and year out. To me, that is an example of a coach who cannot make any adjustments. The playing style and the zone was great to see this year, but nothing changed as far as the results. Players developed and got better, but the OOC schedule was horrendous (due to other teams being worse than we thought they would be...can't put that on Jones) and we continue to lose games against the same systems.

KenPom takes into account strength of opposing defense.

I am well aware. I am speaking about certain systems.

Which systems do you think we do well or bad against?

(04-27-2018 10:36 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:14 AM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:32 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  People will find excuses no matter what lol.

We had 2 bad loss on the season....

Other losses (all but 1 very competitive):

47 (3x)
45
86

We finished top 75 in KenPom for a reason (which actually takes into account how you play; close losses, big wins, etc.)

Would love for us to consistently be top 75, but it hasn't happened in my lifetime. We have had very few seasons being one of the top 75 teams in the country.

I love Kenpom, and I look at it religiously, but there is really no measure for how a system matches up with opponents. We dominated certain opponents because of their style vs. ours. It was beautiful to watch us play against teams that played no defense. We absolutely throttled those teams. Those numbers help raise our Kenpom numbers. I tracked it throughout the year.

Edit: If I am not correct about this, then explain to me why we lose to the same systems year in and year out. To me, that is an example of a coach who cannot make any adjustments. The playing style and the zone was great to see this year, but nothing changed as far as the results. Players developed and got better, but the OOC schedule was horrendous (due to other teams being worse than we thought they would be...can't put that on Jones) and we continue to lose games against the same systems.

When you play strict man to man, it becomes crystal clear who has the better athletes being that everyone is playing 1-on-1 defense. We aren't losing to systems, we are losing battles we can't win. Aside from W&M, which was a bit of a statistical outlier, everyone we lost to had better athletes. Everyone we beat had inferior athletes. It is really quite that simple. Even VCU... a terrible team... but our man-to-man defense allowed it to become an individual game and we had no individuals that could contain Tillman.

This! Every year under JJ.

(04-27-2018 10:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:40 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:17 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 06:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  We were an NIT caliber team. Certainly better than several NIT teams. Not only KenPom, but We were what.....a hair below WKY and they made some teams looks silly (on the road) in the tourney.

And FWIW, without looking, what was last year; one of the top 5-7 teams we,ve had in the last 25 years?

It was the second best team JJ has had. BT had four or five that were better. Capel had two or three that were better, and Ollie had a couple. Last years team wasn’t an NIT caliber team or they would have been in. They were close. We don’t call the Freeman team an NCAA caliber team.

Disagree the Freeman team wasn’t dance caliber. The team that went to the NIT was tight! I still relish the beat down they put on vcu in the Ted.

Unfortunately, being in CUSA, we do not have the luxury of affording JJ's patented midseason slumps. The team had a lot of potential and won some pretty big games OOC at home, but they were unable to sustain that level of play, perform well on the road, or bring it back when it counted. NCAA calibur teams these days don't lose to UTSA on the road (and they were awful that year). Maybe could have gotten away with it under the committees in Blaine's era, but nowadays, there is no room for that.

Houston lost to Drexel. St.Bonnies lost to Niagara. Seton Hall lost to Rutgers.

There has always been teams that get in with bad losses.

But of course there are zero scenarios where Kenpom was wrong.

(04-27-2018 11:38 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  And...Have you met my friend Men's Basketball Recruiting thread?

Every thread...JJ sucks, We can't beat anyone, fire everyone. Yada, Yada, Yada, blah, blah, blah. I think there are specific thread dedicated to all these topics.

You forgot part of it. JJ isn't going anywhere. We had a great season last year. Everything is fine. What do you expect... to make the NCAA tournament?

(04-27-2018 12:08 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:40 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:17 PM)monarx Wrote:  It was the second best team JJ has had. BT had four or five that were better. Capel had two or three that were better, and Ollie had a couple. Last years team wasn’t an NIT caliber team or they would have been in. They were close. We don’t call the Freeman team an NCAA caliber team.

Disagree the Freeman team wasn’t dance caliber. The team that went to the NIT was tight! I still relish the beat down they put on vcu in the Ted.

Unfortunately, being in CUSA, we do not have the luxury of affording JJ's patented midseason slumps. The team had a lot of potential and won some pretty big games OOC at home, but they were unable to sustain that level of play, perform well on the road, or bring it back when it counted. NCAA calibur teams these days don't lose to UTSA on the road (and they were awful that year). Maybe could have gotten away with it under the committees in Blaine's era, but nowadays, there is no room for that.

Houston lost to Drexel. St.Bonnies lost to Niagara. Seton Hall lost to Rutgers.

There has always been teams that get in with bad losses.

But of course there are zero scenarios where Kenpom was wrong.

I would guess KenPom is "wrong" less than you are. Which makes it valuable.

(04-27-2018 12:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:08 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:40 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote:  Disagree the Freeman team wasn’t dance caliber. The team that went to the NIT was tight! I still relish the beat down they put on vcu in the Ted.

Unfortunately, being in CUSA, we do not have the luxury of affording JJ's patented midseason slumps. The team had a lot of potential and won some pretty big games OOC at home, but they were unable to sustain that level of play, perform well on the road, or bring it back when it counted. NCAA calibur teams these days don't lose to UTSA on the road (and they were awful that year). Maybe could have gotten away with it under the committees in Blaine's era, but nowadays, there is no room for that.

Houston lost to Drexel. St.Bonnies lost to Niagara. Seton Hall lost to Rutgers.

There has always been teams that get in with bad losses.

But of course there are zero scenarios where Kenpom was wrong.

I would guess KenPom is "wrong" less than you are. Which makes it valuable.

I don't know, man. You are wrong A LOT, and Kenom is your Bible. Makes it a little questionable.

(04-27-2018 12:02 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 11:02 AM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:14 AM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:32 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  People will find excuses no matter what lol.

We had 2 bad loss on the season....

Other losses (all but 1 very competitive):

47 (3x)
45
86

We finished top 75 in KenPom for a reason (which actually takes into account how you play; close losses, big wins, etc.)

Would love for us to consistently be top 75, but it hasn't happened in my lifetime. We have had very few seasons being one of the top 75 teams in the country.

I love Kenpom, and I look at it religiously, but there is really no measure for how a system matches up with opponents. We dominated certain opponents because of their style vs. ours. It was beautiful to watch us play against teams that played no defense. We absolutely throttled those teams. Those numbers help raise our Kenpom numbers. I tracked it throughout the year.

Edit: If I am not correct about this, then explain to me why we lose to the same systems year in and year out. To me, that is an example of a coach who cannot make any adjustments. The playing style and the zone was great to see this year, but nothing changed as far as the results. Players developed and got better, but the OOC schedule was horrendous (due to other teams being worse than we thought they would be...can't put that on Jones) and we continue to lose games against the same systems.

KenPom takes into account strength of opposing defense.

I am well aware. I am speaking about certain systems.

Which systems do you think we do well or bad against?

Any team with a ton of size gave us problems. Any team with a big that can step out and hit a jump shot. Teams that take care of the basketball. A team that prides themselves on executing offense instead of running and gunning.

We do very well against teams that play no defense and have one or two players that are their focal points on offense. If a team is a well-rounded scoring team, we struggle big time. You will point to MTSU unless you look closer.

(04-27-2018 12:31 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:08 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Unfortunately, being in CUSA, we do not have the luxury of affording JJ's patented midseason slumps. The team had a lot of potential and won some pretty big games OOC at home, but they were unable to sustain that level of play, perform well on the road, or bring it back when it counted. NCAA calibur teams these days don't lose to UTSA on the road (and they were awful that year). Maybe could have gotten away with it under the committees in Blaine's era, but nowadays, there is no room for that.

Houston lost to Drexel. St.Bonnies lost to Niagara. Seton Hall lost to Rutgers.

There has always been teams that get in with bad losses.

But of course there are zero scenarios where Kenpom was wrong.

I would guess KenPom is "wrong" less than you are. Which makes it valuable.

I don't know, man. You are wrong A LOT, and Kenom is your Bible. Makes it a little questionable.

Kenpom is the best source for rankings but just like anything else, it has it's serious flaws. With numbers, you can always make them work in your favor. People that actually use their eyes and their knowledge of the game, will see what's really happening.

(04-27-2018 12:49 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:31 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:08 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 10:44 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Houston lost to Drexel. St.Bonnies lost to Niagara. Seton Hall lost to Rutgers.

There has always been teams that get in with bad losses.

But of course there are zero scenarios where Kenpom was wrong.

I would guess KenPom is "wrong" less than you are. Which makes it valuable.

I don't know, man. You are wrong A LOT, and Kenom is your Bible. Makes it a little questionable.

Kenpom is the best source for rankings but just like anything else, it has it's serious flaws. With numbers, you can always make them work in your favor. People that actually use their eyes and their knowledge of the game, will see what's really happening.

I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

(04-27-2018 12:54 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:49 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:31 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:08 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  But of course there are zero scenarios where Kenpom was wrong.

I would guess KenPom is "wrong" less than you are. Which makes it valuable.

I don't know, man. You are wrong A LOT, and Kenom is your Bible. Makes it a little questionable.

Kenpom is the best source for rankings but just like anything else, it has it's serious flaws. With numbers, you can always make them work in your favor. People that actually use their eyes and their knowledge of the game, will see what's really happening.

I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

Why do I keep seeing that we had no bad losses? We lost to VCU and W&M which were 144 and 169.

(04-27-2018 12:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:54 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:49 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:31 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I would guess KenPom is "wrong" less than you are. Which makes it valuable.

I don't know, man. You are wrong A LOT, and Kenom is your Bible. Makes it a little questionable.

Kenpom is the best source for rankings but just like anything else, it has it's serious flaws. With numbers, you can always make them work in your favor. People that actually use their eyes and their knowledge of the game, will see what's really happening.

I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

When Kenpom watches every ODU game and doesn't just crunch numbers that can be skewed for any number of reasons let me know.

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:54 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:49 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:31 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I don't know, man. You are wrong A LOT, and Kenom is your Bible. Makes it a little questionable.

Kenpom is the best source for rankings but just like anything else, it has it's serious flaws. With numbers, you can always make them work in your favor. People that actually use their eyes and their knowledge of the game, will see what's really happening.

I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

When Kenpom watches every ODU game and doesn't just crunch numbers that can be skewed for any number of reasons let me know.

LOL, wut?

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:54 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:49 PM)757ODU Wrote:  Kenpom is the best source for rankings but just like anything else, it has it's serious flaws. With numbers, you can always make them work in your favor. People that actually use their eyes and their knowledge of the game, will see what's really happening.

I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

When Kenpom watches every ODU game and doesn't just crunch numbers that can be skewed for any number of reasons let me know.

LOL, wut?

The fact that you LOL at that shows how out of touch you are with reality.

(04-27-2018 01:04 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:54 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

When Kenpom watches every ODU game and doesn't just crunch numbers that can be skewed for any number of reasons let me know.

LOL, wut?

The fact that you LOL at that shows how out of touch you are with reality.

No, I just find it funny when people try to discount stats with tremendously large sample sizes over tiny aspects of statistics that make no material effect on the results.

And I'm moving on.

(04-27-2018 11:38 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  And...Have you met my friend Men's Basketball Recruiting thread?

Every thread...JJ sucks, We can't beat anyone, fire everyone. Yada, Yada, Yada, blah, blah, blah. I think there are specific thread dedicated to all these topics.

Yes let’s talk about all these transfers we are getting to replace porter and Stith.......

Oh wait.

(04-27-2018 01:04 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:54 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I agree. I don't disagree that it is a useful tool. I just disagree that it holds up as a stand alone method for evaluating.

When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

When Kenpom watches every ODU game and doesn't just crunch numbers that can be skewed for any number of reasons let me know.

LOL, wut?

The fact that you LOL at that shows how out of touch you are with reality.

He has no clue how to dissect the numbers.

He has proven that over and over again.

(04-27-2018 01:10 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:04 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 01:01 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 12:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  When you get a chance to watch a substantial sample of 328 teams, you can give us some good opinions.

When Kenpom watches every ODU game and doesn't just crunch numbers that can be skewed for any number of reasons let me know.

LOL, wut?

The fact that you LOL at that shows how out of touch you are with reality.

No, I just find it funny when people try to discount stats with tremendously large sample sizes over tiny aspects of statistics that make no material effect on the results.

And I'm moving on.

KenPom doesn't account for the human element... like JJ's teams getting psyched out for every big game.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

(04-27-2018 09:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:40 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:17 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 06:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 06:19 PM)mionarx Wrote:  I wouldn’t call it a “damn good” season unless it ends with at least an NIT bid. Last year was good, but not great and not good enough to meet expectations. I’d give it a B, maybe a B-. NCAA or a new coach in 2019.

We were an NIT caliber team. Certainly better than several NIT teams. Not only KenPom, but We were what.....a hair below WKY and they made some teams looks silly (on the road) in the tourney.

And FWIW, without looking, what was last year; one of the top 5-7 teams we,ve had in the last 25 years?

It was the second best team JJ has had. BT had four or five that were better. Capel had two or three that were better, and Ollie had a couple. Last years team wasn’t an NIT caliber team or they would have been in. They were close. We don’t call the Freeman team an NCAA caliber team.

Disagree the Freeman team wasn’t dance caliber. The team that went to the NIT was tight! I still relish the beat down they put on vcu in the Ted.

Unfortunately, being in CUSA, we do not have the luxury of affording JJ's patented midseason slumps. The team had a lot of potential and won some pretty big games OOC at home, but they were unable to sustain that level of play, perform well on the road, or bring it back when it counted. NCAA calibur teams these days don't lose to UTSA on the road (and they were awful that year). Maybe could have gotten away with it under the committees in Blaine's era, but nowadays, there is no room for that.

I think it is not easy to play in CUSA, and the road losses were a reflection of travel fatigue. But the wins (and winning streak at the Ted) that year were exceptional and Freeman was phenomenal. That was most definitely a team worthy of the “dance.” It doesn’t, and won’t, get much better than that year.

(04-27-2018 09:33 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 09:45 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:40 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 07:17 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(04-26-2018 06:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  We were an NIT caliber team. Certainly better than several NIT teams. Not only KenPom, but We were what.....a hair below WKY and they made some teams looks silly (on the road) in the tourney.

And FWIW, without looking, what was last year; one of the top 5-7 teams we,ve had in the last 25 years?

It was the second best team JJ has had. BT had four or five that were better. Capel had two or three that were better, and Ollie had a couple. Last years team wasn’t an NIT caliber team or they would have been in. They were close. We don’t call the Freeman team an NCAA caliber team.

Disagree the Freeman team wasn’t dance caliber. The team that went to the NIT was tight! I still relish the beat down they put on vcu in the Ted.

Unfortunately, being in CUSA, we do not have the luxury of affording JJ's patented midseason slumps. The team had a lot of potential and won some pretty big games OOC at home, but they were unable to sustain that level of play, perform well on the road, or bring it back when it counted. NCAA calibur teams these days don't lose to UTSA on the road (and they were awful that year). Maybe could have gotten away with it under the committees in Blaine's era, but nowadays, there is no room for that.

I think it is not easy to play in CUSA, and the road losses were a reflection of travel fatigue. But the wins (and winning streak at the Ted) that year were exceptional and Freeman was phenomenal. That was most definitely a team worthy of the “dance.” It doesn’t, and won’t, get much better than that year.

Well that's certainly a sad thought if that is the high bar that ODU will likely not exceed. I've witnessed times when ODU was much better than that.