Too confusing and convoluted, but I've created a new promotion-relegation G5 conference scheme, based solely on attendance:

30K CONFERENCE
NORTH
Temple (44,159)
ECU (43,274)
Cincinnati (37,096)
Navy (32,338)
Army West Point (30,991)

SOUTH
BYU (58,532)
Memphis (43,802)
Houston (33,980)
Boise St. (33,612)
UCF (30,065)

The 10 schools with 30K+ attendance separate into NORTH and SOUTH divisions. 4 divisional games and 3 cross-division games. CCG between NORTH and SOUTH division winners. The conference champion gets the NY6 bid. The top-10 in attendance over the previous 2 seasons always remain in the 30K Conference. Conference can grow to 12 schools, based on attendance from among the 30K schools and the Promotion Pool 1 schools (see below).

The 30K schools play 2 "OOC" games against Promotion Pool 1 schools. OOC matchups based on rivalries, history, geography, and TV matchups. Allowance made for one home FCS game; the remaining OOC games must be against P5 opponents.

PROMOTION POOL 1
San Diego St. (29,066)
Fresno St. (29,036)
Southern Miss (28,335)
UConn (28,224)
USF (26,578)
Marshall (26,322)
Air Force (26,026)
Colorado St. (24,917)

7 divisional games and 2-3 OOC games against 30K schools. Also, 1-2 OOC games against PROMOTION POOL 2 schools (see below). OOC matchups based on rivalries, history, geography, and TV matchups.

Promotion Pool 1 always has 8 schools. The top schools from Promotion Pool 1, based on rolling 2 years' attendance, *may* move up to the 30K conference if they average more than 30K attendance. (12-member limit for the top 30K conference). They may also move down, based on attendance.

PROMOTION POOL 2
WEST
New Mexico (23,528)
Hawaii (23,433)
UTEP (23,212)
UTSA (23,008)
Nevada (22,170)
Utah St. (21,362)
Tulsa (19,622)
UNLV (19,371)

WEST
Arkansas St. (23,007)
Tulane (22,930)
LA-Lafayette (21,596)
Appalachian St. (21,459)
Ohio (21,323)
LA Tech (20,977)
Toledo (20,842)
Georgia Southern (20,780)

Promotion Pool 2 always has two divisions of 8 schools. 7 divisional games, 2 cross-division games, and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 1 and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 3. OOC matchups based on rivalries, history, geography, and TV matchups.

PROMOTION POOL 3
NORTH
Old Dominion (20,118)
Bowling Green (19,608)
W. Michigan (19,441)
Buffalo (18,457)
Akron (18,098)
W. Kentucky (17,960)
Miami (OH) (15,707)
C. Michigan (15,672)

SOUTH
Troy (19,399)
Rice (19,339)
Texas St. (18,166)
Wyoming (18,060)
FAU (17,617)
NMSU (17,486)
MTU (17,210)
S. Alabama (16,039)

Promotion Pool 3 always has 2 divisions of 6-8 schools each. 7 divisional games, 2 cross-division games, and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 2 and 1-2 games against Cess Pool.

CESS POOL
FIU (15,381)
SJSU (15,312)
NIU (13,942)
N. Texas (13,631)
Kent St. (12,561)
LA Monroe (11,732)
UMass (11,124)
Georgia St. (10,347)
Ball St. (7,974)
E. Michigan (4,897)

9 divisional games and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 3; 1-2 games against FCS.

Idaho (11,653)[dropped]

Schools may move up or down from one Conference or Pool to the other based on the 2 years' rolling attendance.

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  Schools may move up or down from one Conference or Pool to the other based on the 2 years' rolling attendance.

I follow movie box office results, and there is a debate about whether what should be tracked is dollars earned or admissions. The consensus is that dollars are what count, not warm bodies.

I think the same should apply in these discussions, because "attendance" just means a butt in a seat, when what really matters is the box office take.

It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

(06-15-2016 01:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  Schools may move up or down from one Conference or Pool to the other based on the 2 years' rolling attendance.

I follow movie box office results, and there is a debate about whether what should be tracked is dollars earned or admissions. The consensus is that dollars are what count, not warm bodies.

I think the same should apply in these discussions, because "attendance" just means a butt in a seat, when what really matters is the box office take.

It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

I get that, but I think both are still important. For a ridiculous example: 100,000 people who paid an average of $10 = $1,000,000 OR 2 people who paid $550,000 each = $1,100,000. Butts in seats matter for TV purposes (what station wants an empty stadium?) and home-field advantage purposes (loud, distracting crowd.) Other than that, it is all about the dollar.

(06-15-2016 01:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

Yes and no.

From a purely admission point of view yes but those additional 20,000 people will more than cover the difference in parking, concessions, souvenirs, etc. So let's call the finances per game a wash.

The difference come in atmosphere and developing additional fans to the fanbase who in turn spend more money on the program than the first 20,000.

At worst its a wash so you will never get anyone saying they'd prefer 20k paying $30 versus 40k paying $10.

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  Too confusing and convoluted, but I've created a new promotion-relegation G5 conference scheme, based solely on attendance:

30K CONFERENCE
NORTH
Temple (44,159)
ECU (43,274)
Cincinnati (37,096)
Navy (32,338)
Army West Point (30,991)

SOUTH
BYU (58,532)
Memphis (43,802)
Houston (33,980)
Boise St. (33,612)
UCF (30,065)

The 10 schools with 30K+ attendance separate into NORTH and SOUTH divisions. 4 divisional games and 3 cross-division games. CCG between NORTH and SOUTH division winners. The conference champion gets the NY6 bid. The top-10 in attendance over the previous 2 seasons always remain in the 30K Conference. Conference can grow to 12 schools, based on attendance from among the 30K schools and the Promotion Pool 1 schools (see below).

The 30K schools play 2 "OOC" games against Promotion Pool 1 schools. OOC matchups based on rivalries, history, geography, and TV matchups. Allowance made for one home FCS game; the remaining OOC games must be against P5 opponents.

PROMOTION POOL 1
San Diego St. (29,066)
Fresno St. (29,036)
Southern Miss (28,335)
UConn (28,224)
USF (26,578)
Marshall (26,322)
Air Force (26,026)
Colorado St. (24,917)

7 divisional games and 2-3 OOC games against 30K schools. Also, 1-2 OOC games against PROMOTION POOL 2 schools (see below). OOC matchups based on rivalries, history, geography, and TV matchups.

Promotion Pool 1 always has 8 schools. The top schools from Promotion Pool 1, based on rolling 2 years' attendance, *may* move up to the 30K conference if they average more than 30K attendance. (12-member limit for the top 30K conference). They may also move down, based on attendance.

PROMOTION POOL 2
WEST
New Mexico (23,528)
Hawaii (23,433)
UTEP (23,212)
UTSA (23,008)
Nevada (22,170)
Utah St. (21,362)
Tulsa (19,622)
UNLV (19,371)

WEST
Arkansas St. (23,007)
Tulane (22,930)
LA-Lafayette (21,596)
Appalachian St. (21,459)
Ohio (21,323)
LA Tech (20,977)
Toledo (20,842)
Georgia Southern (20,780)

Promotion Pool 2 always has two divisions of 8 schools. 7 divisional games, 2 cross-division games, and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 1 and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 3. OOC matchups based on rivalries, history, geography, and TV matchups.

PROMOTION POOL 3
NORTH
Old Dominion (20,118)
Bowling Green (19,608)
W. Michigan (19,441)
Buffalo (18,457)
Akron (18,098)
W. Kentucky (17,960)
Miami (OH) (15,707)
C. Michigan (15,672)

SOUTH
Troy (19,399)
Rice (19,339)
Texas St. (18,166)
Wyoming (18,060)
FAU (17,617)
NMSU (17,486)
MTU (17,210)
S. Alabama (16,039)

Promotion Pool 3 always has 2 divisions of 6-8 schools each. 7 divisional games, 2 cross-division games, and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 2 and 1-2 games against Cess Pool.

CESS POOL
FIU (15,381)
SJSU (15,312)
NIU (13,942)
N. Texas (13,631)
Kent St. (12,561)
LA Monroe (11,732)
UMass (11,124)
Georgia St. (10,347)
Ball St. (7,974)
E. Michigan (4,897)

9 divisional games and 1-2 games against Promotion Pool 3; 1-2 games against FCS.

Idaho (11,653)[dropped]

Schools may move up or down from one Conference or Pool to the other based on the 2 years' rolling attendance.

A five or ten year average would be better. Some schools had abnormal attendance last year.

(06-15-2016 02:08 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

Yes and no.

From a purely admission point of view yes but those additional 20,000 people will more than cover the difference in parking, concessions, souvenirs, etc. So let's call the finances per game a wash.

The difference come in atmosphere and developing additional fans to the fanbase who in turn spend more money on the program than the first 20,000.

At worst its a wash so you will never get anyone saying they'd prefer 20k paying $30 versus 40k paying $10.

The fans paying "normal" ticket prices are more valuable to the athletic department and a much better indicator of the level of real support. It's fine to run a promotion once every year or two at a low price to get people to sample the game-day experience. But if attendance at every game is built on $10 tickets, you're getting game attendees who park down the road and walk in so they don't have to pay $15-30 to park, bring their own food so they don't have to pay $6 for a hot dog and $9 for a burger, would never pay $25-40 for a t-shirt, and won't donate $100 and certainly not more. So even if a team can occasionally fill more seats with cheap tickets and/or a free music concert (or whatever) after the game, they're not building a base of real support by doing so.

(06-15-2016 02:20 PM)k5james Wrote:  A five or ten year average would be better. Some schools had abnormal attendance last year.

You mean like Memphis?



2015 was 10k more than their previous best year in the last 10 years (33k). Having looked into the details of their home slate since 2006 they have certainly been helped by some big time regional opponents playing in the Liberty Bowl. An advantage that most of the rest of the G5 don't have to boost their numbers.

I can only speak intelligently about UH but if we had Texas, A&M, LSU, Etc. make the occasional trek to TDECU our numbers would look better as well.

Their 10 year average is 28752 with a high of 43801 and a low of 20078. To be fair Memphis numbers are much better than people want to believe.

I'll admit it was too easy to take a shot a Memphis and I only did because you saw a 10k bump in 2015 and just short of a 17k bump over the previous 9 year average.

In full disclosure UH's numbers are as follows:

10 year avg: 26807
High: 33979
Low: 20871

We saw a 13k bump over our previous 9 year average and about a 2k bump over our previous high in the last 10 years.

I think a more accurate number would be in conference attendance over a 10 year period. I will post UH's numbers shortly if others feel inclined please do so. I think this is a more accurate number of fan support because between CUSA and the first couple of years in the AAC there are been few real big draws to boost attendance.

(06-15-2016 02:08 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

Yes and no.

From a purely admission point of view yes but those additional 20,000 people will more than cover the difference in parking, concessions, souvenirs, etc. So let's call the finances per game a wash.

Not so sure. People showing up on cheap tickets tend to be cheap on other things as well. Give me fewer big-spenders than a bunch of students getting in for just about free. They are going to sneak beer in, they aren't buying $30 t-shirts and paying $20 for parking.

UH 10 year in conference numbers. The good and the bad.....

Home average: 26074
High: 42159 vs. Memphis
Low: 13242 vs. UCF

UH recent 5 year numbers:

Home average: 28616
High: 42129 vs. Memphis
Low: 20103 vs. Memphis....

I've never understood why some want to ding teams for being able to get P5s to play at home. That's a good thing. Memphis has really only emphasized football (from an admin. perspective) in the last several years. Season tickets last year were north of 18k and are trending well this year from what I've heard. More seatbacks are being added with price increases which has caused some re-seating and grumbling, but sales seem to be doing fine. If you're Memphis, the thing you've got to be tickled about is that 40K is no longer reserved for SEC opponents only. As the past several years have shown, it's now doable for FCS, weeknight, G5, AAC and lower tier P5 opponents.

(06-15-2016 03:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 02:08 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

Yes and no.

From a purely admission point of view yes but those additional 20,000 people will more than cover the difference in parking, concessions, souvenirs, etc. So let's call the finances per game a wash.

Not so sure. People showing up on cheap tickets tend to be cheap on other things as well. Give me fewer big-spenders than a bunch of students getting in for just about free. They are going to sneak beer in, they aren't buying $30 t-shirts and paying $20 for parking.

Were only talking about those people paying an additional $10 average per person to cover the ($200k) difference. It's not inconceivable to see that kind of money spent regardless of how cheap they are.... Say one guy pays for parking and another buys a beer. It's not a bridge too far.

The ancillary benefits far outweigh what might be in an extreme case a slightly smaller net on the admission revenue.

(06-15-2016 02:41 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 02:08 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's a lot better to have 20,000 in the stands who paid an average of $30 a ticket than to have 40,000 in the stands who paid an average of $10 a ticket.

Yes and no.

From a purely admission point of view yes but those additional 20,000 people will more than cover the difference in parking, concessions, souvenirs, etc. So let's call the finances per game a wash.

The difference come in atmosphere and developing additional fans to the fanbase who in turn spend more money on the program than the first 20,000.

At worst its a wash so you will never get anyone saying they'd prefer 20k paying $30 versus 40k paying $10.

The fans paying "normal" ticket prices are more valuable to the athletic department and a much better indicator of the level of real support. It's fine to run a promotion once every year or two at a low price to get people to sample the game-day experience. But if attendance at every game is built on $10 tickets, you're getting game attendees who park down the road and walk in so they don't have to pay $15-30 to park, bring their own food so they don't have to pay $6 for a hot dog and $9 for a burger, would never pay $25-40 for a t-shirt, and won't donate $100 and certainly not more. So even if a team can occasionally fill more seats with cheap tickets and/or a free music concert (or whatever) after the game, they're not building a base of real support by doing so.

In his example it was only a $10 per person difference.... Meaning on average per person they would only have to spend $10 above the price of the ticket to cover the $200k difference.

You then create new fans that will spend more money. The people spending $30 in that scenario will spend the extra money regardless and in my scenario you win some new fans and donors producing more revenue above and beyond a 20k fanbase paying 30 versus a 40k fanbase paying $10.

I'll take a 40k crowd over a 20k crowd any day its not even a debate.

(06-15-2016 03:08 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  I've never understood why some want to ding teams for being able to get P5s to play at home. That's a good thing. Memphis has really only emphasized football (from an admin. perspective) in the last several years. Season tickets last year were north of 16k and are trending well this year from what I've heard. More seatbacks are being added with price increases which has caused some re-seating and grumbling, but sales seem to be doing fine. If you're Memphis, the thing you've got to be tickled about is that 40K is no longer reserved for SEC opponents only. As the past several years have shown, it's now doable for FCS, weeknight, G5, AAC and lower tier P5 opponents.

It is a good thing but let's not pretend that it doesn't help boost your numbers, and would any school that isn't a blueblood both in and out of the P5.

That was the point I was making.

(06-15-2016 02:20 PM)k5james Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  

A five or ten year average would be better. Some schools had abnormal attendance last year.

I agree since UTEP's 10 year avg is 31k. Finally, we're in!

(06-15-2016 03:20 PM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 02:20 PM)k5james Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  

A five or ten year average would be better. Some schools had abnormal attendance last year.

I agree since UTEP's 10 year avg is 31k. Finally, we're in!

True. It's the same school that can go as high as 48k on a 8 win season. Just imagine if UTEP had multiple winning seasons and an occasional big bowl run. But I'll take a 31k ten year average for now.

(06-15-2016 03:20 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 03:08 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  I've never understood why some want to ding teams for being able to get P5s to play at home. That's a good thing. Memphis has really only emphasized football (from an admin. perspective) in the last several years. Season tickets last year were north of 16k and are trending well this year from what I've heard. More seatbacks are being added with price increases which has caused some re-seating and grumbling, but sales seem to be doing fine. If you're Memphis, the thing you've got to be tickled about is that 40K is no longer reserved for SEC opponents only. As the past several years have shown, it's now doable for FCS, weeknight, G5, AAC and lower tier P5 opponents.

It is a good thing but let's not pretend that it doesn't help boost your numbers, and would any school that isn't a blueblood both in and out of the P5.

That was the point I was making.

No doubt it helps. There's been a cultural shift from the admin. (financial commitments) in the last several years that are now bearing fruit. Of course, winning cures all ills too. In the past, 40K+ crowds were mostly due to visiting SEC teams with a large percentage wearing visiting colors. Not so the last couple of years as the Tiger FB fanbase has grown exponentially. Still can do better, but it's light years compared to where they were a few short years ago.

(06-15-2016 03:52 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 03:20 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  It is a good thing but let's not pretend that it doesn't help boost your numbers, and would any school that isn't a blueblood both in and out of the P5.

That was the point I was making.

No doubt it helps. There's been a cultural shift from the admin. (financial commitments) in the last several years that are now bearing fruit. Of course, winning cures all ills too. In the past, 40K+ crowds were mostly due to visiting SEC teams with a large percentage wearing visiting colors. Not so the last couple of years as the Tiger FB fanbase has grown exponentially. Still can do better, but it's light years compared to where they were a few short years ago.

Agreed we are benefiting from a similar track. The difference is even with that commitment you've had some local name opponents on the slate to help boost the number. Not "to" boost them but it helped.

As good as the Tigers have been I am sure you would have been north of at a minimum 35k and likely around 40k but you (nor anyone in a similar situation) would be pulling the 60k you did versus Ole Miss versus a game versus say Central Michigan.

That Ole Miss game alone gave you a 3,333 boost per game.

In the end I wish the Tigers well the stronger all of us are the stronger the league is.

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  Too confusing and convoluted, but I've created a new promotion-relegation G5 conference scheme, based solely on attendance:

30K CONFERENCE
NORTH
Temple (44,159)
ECU (43,274)
Cincinnati (37,096)
Navy (32,338)
Army West Point (30,991)

SOUTH
BYU (58,532)
Memphis (43,802)
Houston (33,980)
Boise St. (33,612)
UCF (30,065)

YNot,

Last year was the first year in the last 12 years that USF did not average 30,000. So 1 out of 12 years did not meet 30,000. USF will also average over 40,000 this year and sell out 65,000 vs. FSU. Based on this, USF should be in the 30,000 club. There isn't any question. You just happened to take by far the worst USF attendance in over a decade (this past year).

Here is USF's historical attendance.

2005 38,865
2006 30,222
2007 53,170
2008 49,690
2009 52,553
2010 40,849
2011 44,550
2012 44,130
2013 34,702
2014 30,694

Average over this decade long time span: 41,942

You could add FCS schools that are above 15,000 as pools.

(06-15-2016 04:20 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 01:50 PM)YNot Wrote:  Too confusing and convoluted, but I've created a new promotion-relegation G5 conference scheme, based solely on attendance:

30K CONFERENCE
NORTH
Temple (44,159)
ECU (43,274)
Cincinnati (37,096)
Navy (32,338)
Army West Point (30,991)

SOUTH
BYU (58,532)
Memphis (43,802)
Houston (33,980)
Boise St. (33,612)
UCF (30,065)

YNot,

Last year was the first year in the last 12 years that USF did not average 30,000. So 1 out of 12 years did not meet 30,000. USF will also average over 40,000 this year and sell out 65,000 vs. FSU. Based on this, USF should be in the 30,000 club. There isn't any question. You just happened to take by far the worst USF attendance in over a decade (this past year).

Here is USF's historical attendance.

2005 38,865
2006 30,222
2007 53,170
2008 49,690
2009 52,553
2010 40,849
2011 44,550
2012 44,130
2013 34,702
2014 30,694

Average over this decade long time span: 41,942

And he included Temple as the top school that averages 44,000. Temple doesn't average 44,000 fans in a 10 year span. I would be surprised if Temple averaged 20,000 over the past 10 years. Anyone can get tons of fans in the NFL stadium down the road when Penn St and ND are in town. No one but ECU can get 45 to 50k in their OCS with UAB's and Tulsa's as the typical weekly game. No one else.

Cheers!