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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #41
RE: College World Series
People snickered about both Coastal and UCSB but I thought neither would be intimidated in Omaha after having knocked off national seeds LSU and Louisville both in very hostile environments and without losing a game.
06-20-2016 05:12 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #42
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 12:10 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 11:56 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 10:28 AM)TCU2002 Wrote:  Is this rooted in some reportage (that Baker is on a sham 'academic scholarship') or are you just floating it?

TCU does publish the average academic credentials for recipients of the various tiers of academic scholarships: http://www.admissions.tcu.edu/Freshman/S...ancial-Aid

I would imagine the NCAA would sniff around if these criteria were manipulated in a serious way. As it is, I see four possible scenarios, 3 legitimate and 1 very problematic:
...
2) Baker has strong academic credentials and qualified for TCU merit scholarships. I have never seen anything reported one way or another concerning his academic profile.
...

I don't know any details, but 2) would not surprise me. As I understand it, a big challenges Rice currently faces is that the academic credentials that would qualify for an a merit scholarship at many of our athletics competitor (such as Vanderbilt, Tulane, TCU) would only be middle-of-the-pack among the incoming student body at Rice. This is not to say that those other schools are not reasonably selective in their admissions; but it is to say that Rice is astronomically selective.

Some possible ways to change that include:
1) Lobby the NCAA to (a) increase the number of baseball scholarships, or (b) authorize sport-specific academic scholarships that don't count as athletic scholarships. As a practical matter, these are probably the same thing.
2) Reduce the overall academic profile of the Rice student body to more closely match those other schools.
3) Expand Rice's baseball recruiting pool to encompass the very highest-achieving baseball prospects from the entire country -- like, e.g., our music recruiting pool. Obviously, the number of great baseball players nationwide who can qualify for academic merit scholarships at Rice is necessarily greater than the number of such students from our traditional recruiting ground of Texas. Bringing more of those students to Rice would allow us to have more talent without more baseball scholarships. Doing this would require selling Rice as perhaps THE premier academic/athletic destination in the nation for a ballplayer (as the Shepherd School already is for orchestra musicians) -- in other words, making Rice what Stanford was not long ago.

Of these, 3) seems the most likely, but still quite difficult. We have more competitors for that particular niche now than Stanford did then, and it's probably easier to attract such students to (and to sell their parents on) the balmy climate, technological hub, and overall sports success of Palo Alto than to Houston, Texas. But it shouldn't be impossible.

Vanderbilt's admissions are the same if not higher than us. In 2015, Their 25th percentile-75th percentile ACT was 32-35 and Rice was also 32-35. Anecdotally, I am a proud Vanderbilt reject but a current Rice student.

The issue is, at least in Vandy's case, is that they offer a bunch of merit scholarships that have little or no established criteria. I believe one of these is for African-Americans. The administration at Rice does not offer these types of scholarships, and therefore academic+athletic aid cannot be bundled.

What Rice CAN, and currently does do, is offer financial aid through the standard framework to athletes. For some players whose family income is low, this can amount to close to a full ride.

I looked at this site:
http://www.collegedata.com
...and you're right: Rice and Vandy are essentially the same in the academic profile of the entering class. Tulane's class profile is a bit lower than Rice/Vandy, and TCU's is a bit lower still.

A few random things that I notices:
- Housing: The site says that Vandy manages to house 95% of all students on campus, compared to Rice's 70%. That is a startling number. I wonder if it includes fraternity and sorority houses?
- Finances: There are differences in sticker price, average aid offered, average debt load, and so on, but they all seem to be in the same ballpark.
- Demographics: Vandy's student body is 62% white, TCU and Tulane are around 75%, and Rice is about 46%. I'm surprise that those differences are so pronounced. One factor is that that the proportions of Asian and Hispanic students at those three schools seem astonishingly small compared to Rice. On the other hand, Rice's attractiveness to Hispanic students in particular over the last many years seems to be one of our dramatic if unsung successes.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 08:51 PM by georgewebb.)
06-20-2016 06:23 PM
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Da.Owl Offline
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Post: #43
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 05:12 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  People snickered about both Coastal and UCSB but I thought neither would be intimidated in Omaha after having knocked off national seeds LSU and Louisville both in very hostile environments and without losing a game.

+1
06-20-2016 06:37 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #44
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 10:28 AM)TCU2002 Wrote:  Is this rooted in some reportage (that Baker is on a sham 'academic scholarship') or are you just floating it?

TCU does publish the average academic credentials for recipients of the various tiers of academic scholarships: http://www.admissions.tcu.edu/Freshman/S...ancial-Aid

I would imagine the NCAA would sniff around if these criteria were manipulated in a serious way. As it is, I see four possible scenarios, 3 legitimate and 1 very problematic:

1) Baker is on significant baseball scholarship to attend TCU, counting against TCU's baseball scholarship allotment. Given his high talent level, why wouldn't he be offered max support?

2) Baker has strong academic credentials and qualified for TCU merit scholarships. I have never seen anything reported one way or another concerning his academic profile.

3) Baker's family is paying out of pocket for him to attend TCU, perhaps with the help of some baseball or academic scholarship that doesn't cover everything.

4) He was maneuvered into an academic scholarship slot he was otherwise not matched to based on his credentials. Wouldn't the NCAA audit this? In any event, I think that suggesting that this is indeed the scenario is an accusation that should be rooted in some evidence rather than just floated.

I have lurked on TCU's board a couple of times, and I have seen absurd accusations concerning Rice's funding packages "floated" by Horny Toad supporters.

So please, do not come on this board and admonish posters for "floating" things, when your own fellow alumni are far more ill-informed and loose-tongued. Get bent.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 07:37 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 06:42 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #45
RE: College World Series
If you want some proof, there is a completely baseless claim made about this kind of thing on the last page of the February Rice-TCU game thread on KF. I'm not going to post a link, nor am I going to quote the post, because I don't want that **** on our board.

But have a look if you so desire. I saw that garbage months ago and just chuckled to myself. Now that we have this thread, I have reason to bring it to everyone's attention.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 08:21 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 07:03 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #46
RE: College World Series
Looks like the NCAA got tired of the complaints about their umpires. The ESPN strike zone box is gone for the start of the AZ v OK St winners bracket game.
06-20-2016 08:36 PM
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TCU2002 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 06:42 PM)Wiessman Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 10:28 AM)TCU2002 Wrote:  Is this rooted in some reportage (that Baker is on a sham 'academic scholarship') or are you just floating it?

TCU does publish the average academic credentials for recipients of the various tiers of academic scholarships: http://www.admissions.tcu.edu/Freshman/S...ancial-Aid

I would imagine the NCAA would sniff around if these criteria were manipulated in a serious way. As it is, I see four possible scenarios, 3 legitimate and 1 very problematic:

1) Baker is on significant baseball scholarship to attend TCU, counting against TCU's baseball scholarship allotment. Given his high talent level, why wouldn't he be offered max support?

2) Baker has strong academic credentials and qualified for TCU merit scholarships. I have never seen anything reported one way or another concerning his academic profile.

3) Baker's family is paying out of pocket for him to attend TCU, perhaps with the help of some baseball or academic scholarship that doesn't cover everything.

4) He was maneuvered into an academic scholarship slot he was otherwise not matched to based on his credentials. Wouldn't the NCAA audit this? In any event, I think that suggesting that this is indeed the scenario is an accusation that should be rooted in some evidence rather than just floated.

I have lurked on TCU's board a couple of times, and I have seen absurd accusations concerning Rice's funding packages "floated" by Horny Toad supporters.

So please, do not come on this board and admonish posters for "floating" things, when your own fellow alumni are far more ill-informed and loose-tongued. Get bent.

No clue why you are so hostile.

I see a distinction between speculation about schools' macro practices (which, let's be honest, is futile and usually stupid), and conjecture about a specific player's deal being against the rules without any evidence. Wrong no matter who does it.
06-20-2016 08:49 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #48
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 12:10 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  What Rice CAN, and currently does do, is offer financial aid through the standard framework to athletes. For some players whose family income is low, this can amount to close to a full ride.

I believe that in order to qualify for the kind of aid that you are describing here, you have to have the proper academic qualifications. You can't just get into Rice on your baseball skills alone and get significant need-based tuition reductions. As far as I know, those reductions apply almost exclusively to students who get into Rice on the strength of their respective academic profiles.

Now if an athlete does have an academic background that is strong enough to get into Rice as a regular student, then of course he or she should get need-based tuition aid if necessary.
06-20-2016 08:57 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #49
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 08:57 PM)Wiessman Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 12:10 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  What Rice CAN, and currently does do, is offer financial aid through the standard framework to athletes. For some players whose family income is low, this can amount to close to a full ride.

I believe that in order to qualify for the kind of aid that you are describing here, you have to have the proper academic qualifications. You can't just get into Rice on your baseball skills alone and get significant need-based tuition reductions. As far as I know, those reductions apply almost exclusively to students who get into Rice on the strength of their respective academic profiles.

I don't think that's right. I believe need-based aid is determined by financial formula, and I don't think it depends on what the admissions path was.
06-20-2016 09:06 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #50
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 08:49 PM)TCU2002 Wrote:  No clue why you are so hostile.

I see a distinction between speculation about schools' macro practices (which, let's be honest, is futile and usually stupid), and conjecture about a specific player's deal being against the rules without any evidence. Wrong no matter who does it.

You came on our board and started accusing a poster of making baseless accusations, when TCU people have done the very same thing and have done it with far less specificity.

Yes, there is a difference here: speculating about one player's circumstances vs. sullying an entire program's accomplishments through basically insinuating that said program has always been able to creatively skirt the rules. It's pretty clear which is worse.

Tell you what, you get your school to open its books, and we'll open ours. I know who my money would be on to come out looking better.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:20 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 09:06 PM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 08:57 PM)Wiessman Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 12:10 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  What Rice CAN, and currently does do, is offer financial aid through the standard framework to athletes. For some players whose family income is low, this can amount to close to a full ride.

I believe that in order to qualify for the kind of aid that you are describing here, you have to have the proper academic qualifications. You can't just get into Rice on your baseball skills alone and get significant need-based tuition reductions. As far as I know, those reductions apply almost exclusively to students who get into Rice on the strength of their respective academic profiles.

Now if an athlete does have an academic background that is strong enough to get into Rice as a regular student, then of course he or she should get need-based tuition aid if necessary.

(Saying this in the least argumentative keyboard tone possible) You are incorrect.

This document sheds some good light on the subject IMO. http://compliance.hawkeyesports.com/FAQ_...al_Aid.pdf
06-20-2016 09:09 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #52
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 09:06 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  I don't think that's right. I believe need-based aid is determined by financial formula, and I don't think it depends on what the admissions path was.

Need-based aid is not path-dependent? That's news to me.
06-20-2016 09:10 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #53
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 09:09 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  (Saying this in the least argumentative keyboard tone possible) You are incorrect.

This document sheds some good light on the subject IMO. http://compliance.hawkeyesports.com/FAQ_...al_Aid.pdf

Fair. But don't give me an Iowa document. Just because they can and do do it doesn't mean that we do it in the same way.

I know all about financial aid at universities, and it varies wildly across the board. What a student can accept (standardized by NCAA rules) and what an institution offers according to its own policies (discretionary in a few respects) are two different things.

Most schools are not as rich as Rice, and most don't have as many need-based tuition grants to offer. But most also don't charge as much as Rice does.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:17 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 09:12 PM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 09:12 PM)Wiessman Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 09:09 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  (Saying this in the least argumentative keyboard tone possible) You are incorrect.

This document sheds some good light on the subject IMO. http://compliance.hawkeyesports.com/FAQ_...al_Aid.pdf

Fair. But don't give me an Iowa document. Just because they can and do do it doesn't mean that we do it in the same way.

Most schools are not as rich as Rice, and most don't have as many need-based tuition grants to offer. But most also don't charge as much as Rice does.

I couldn't find a similar Rice document, so I thought the Iowa document layed out some interesting stuff.

The FAFSA stuff doesn't only apply to university grants, as I'm sure you know. It also plays into loans and pell grants.

In fact, I know some of our full-scholarship athletes have gotten Pell Grants in the past for living expenses. With the new COA legislation, I think that's a little bit shady. At the same time, if you qualify for Pell Grants, you need every bit you can get.

I think the reality of the situation is that this stuff is complicated, but I am willing to bet a lot of money that Rice athletes receive need based aid.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:22 PM by ExcitedOwl18.)
06-20-2016 09:20 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #55
RE: College World Series
I guess the real question here would be this: If an athlete is admitted to a school for any reason, is that athlete automatically entitled to all of that school's financial aid types, even if some of those types don't exist at all schools?

Rice is known to be very generous, and that is so everyone from every walk of life has a more or less equal opportunity to afford the school. Most schools do not commit to this kind of egalitarianism.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:30 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 09:28 PM
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Post: #56
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 09:20 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I think the reality of the situation is that this stuff is complicated, but I am willing to bet a lot of money that Rice athletes receive need based aid.

I get your point. But I ask you: Do you think that this has given us a sustained advantage in recruiting? Yes or no?

My answer is no. But I am not as confident in that answer as I was before.

I will also assert that any advantage we might derive from need-based aid allocations is more than offset by the fact that we hold our athletes to higher academic standards than almost everyone else in D1.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:43 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 09:31 PM
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grol Offline
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Post: #57
RE: College World Series
This used to be about the CWS
06-20-2016 09:43 PM
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Wiessman Away
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Post: #58
RE: College World Series
OK, OT. Split it if you want. Back to the CWS. Go Gauchos.
06-20-2016 09:44 PM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: College World Series
I think the area in which we struggle is with the middle, upper-middle class athlete who is a good, not great student. An educated guess at this range would be a family income of 80-150k (in Houston, if the recruit is from NY, I might say 120-200k). It is here where TCU can offer the "Katy/Cy-Fair/Klein BS Scholarship" and we cannot.

If a player comes from a truly poor background, we can put together a good need-based package for them.

If the player comes from a truly wealthy family, Rice tuition isn't unattainable, especially when combined with some athletic scholarship.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:45 PM by ExcitedOwl18.)
06-20-2016 09:44 PM
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Post: #60
RE: College World Series
(06-20-2016 09:43 PM)grol Wrote:  This used to be about the CWS

Here's something I've wondered about:

That pitch tracker appears to be a 2D plane, but the strike zone is 3D. Does the pitch tracker indicate if a pitch passes through the strike zone at any point in its journey over the plate, or does the tracker only register where a pitch passes through the zone at the front? I think it is the latter, but I am curious about this, because it might explain why some pitches supposedly out of the zone get called strikes anyway.

Either way, NCAA umps are still the pits. I just hope they are the pits for everyone in the CWS, because that would kind of balance things out.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 09:54 PM by Wiessman.)
06-20-2016 09:52 PM
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