A hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. He thought he was performing a caliphate in the name of ISIL or ISIS.

How does one "perform" a caliphate?

(06-14-2016 03:03 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  How does one "perform" a caliphate?

Great answer.

A Caliphate is an area. Hard to perform an area.

Personally, I don't care if something is a "hate" crime. It's a crime, or it isn't. This is just one of a series of mass murders, most of which were not religiously motivated. If this one was, so what? Apparently nobody cares that everyone can get guns with which you can mow down large numbers of people before anyone has a chance to react.

(06-14-2016 06:57 AM)klake87 Wrote:  A hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. He thought he was performing a caliphate in the name of ISIL or ISIS.

Yes. It was a hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. Now what's your point?

(06-14-2016 07:51 PM)niubrad00 Wrote:  

(06-14-2016 06:57 AM)klake87 Wrote:  A hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. He thought he was performing a caliphate in the name of ISIL or ISIS.

Yes. It was a hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. Now what's your point?

...in a gun-free zone.

(06-15-2016 12:17 PM)Huskie_Jon Wrote:  

(06-14-2016 07:51 PM)niubrad00 Wrote:  

(06-14-2016 06:57 AM)klake87 Wrote:  A hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. He thought he was performing a caliphate in the name of ISIL or ISIS.

Yes. It was a hate crime perpetrated by a radical Islamist extremist. Now what's your point?

...in a gun-free zone.

lol

I'm just trying to imagine a dance club full of young 20 somethings in skimpy clothing all packing heat.

Develop a strategy to reduce potential Radical extreme Islamic acts from happening. Supposedly, this terrorist and a bomber that went to Syria frequented the same Mosque. How about we review that Mosque.

Similar to all the violence in Chicago. go after the gang members but the police hands are tied. They are losing control even more.

Target the problem. Let the professionals do their job.

I usually don't stick my head in S&N let alone comment but I thought this was useful info for the discussion...


An off duty officer who was working security at the club shot at the shooter before he entered the club.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...elmet.html

(06-15-2016 04:39 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  I usually don't stick my head in S&N let alone comment but I thought this was useful info for the discussion...


An off duty officer who was working security at the club shot at the shooter before he entered the club.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...elmet.html

I've been wondering about this. How does it take the Orlando PD 3 hours to storm the place? Did they believe there was more than 1 perp?

(06-16-2016 06:14 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 04:39 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  I usually don't stick my head in S&N let alone comment but I thought this was useful info for the discussion...


An off duty officer who was working security at the club shot at the shooter before he entered the club.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...elmet.html

I've been wondering about this. How does it take the Orlando PD 3 hours to storm the place? Did they believe there was more than 1 perp?

I don't know about this one but I have a book about Columbine and it seemed like it took a while before they entered the building in any numbers - and due to varying descriptions by people calling 911 in that instance they thought there might have been many attackers including one on the roof. So at this point it's hard to say what they might have thought. Doesn't explain 3 hours though, is that right?

(06-16-2016 09:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 06:14 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 04:39 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  I usually don't stick my head in S&N let alone comment but I thought this was useful info for the discussion...


An off duty officer who was working security at the club shot at the shooter before he entered the club.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...elmet.html

I've been wondering about this. How does it take the Orlando PD 3 hours to storm the place? Did they believe there was more than 1 perp?

I don't know about this one but I have a book about Columbine and it seemed like it took a while before they entered the building in any numbers - and due to varying descriptions by people calling 911 in that instance they thought there might have been many attackers including one on the roof. So at this point it's hard to say what they might have thought. Doesn't explain 3 hours though, is that right?

You're correct about Columbine, but there have been procedure updates for police since then. Now, police are trained to neutralize a perp as soon as possible.

It makes sense if they initially thought there was more than 1 perp, but still...3 hours...

(06-17-2016 07:57 AM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 09:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 06:14 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 04:39 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  I usually don't stick my head in S&N let alone comment but I thought this was useful info for the discussion...


An off duty officer who was working security at the club shot at the shooter before he entered the club.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...elmet.html

I've been wondering about this. How does it take the Orlando PD 3 hours to storm the place? Did they believe there was more than 1 perp?

I don't know about this one but I have a book about Columbine and it seemed like it took a while before they entered the building in any numbers - and due to varying descriptions by people calling 911 in that instance they thought there might have been many attackers including one on the roof. So at this point it's hard to say what they might have thought. Doesn't explain 3 hours though, is that right?

You're correct about Columbine, but there have been procedure updates for police since then. Now, police are trained to neutralize a perp as soon as possible.

It makes sense if they initially thought there was more than 1 perp, but still...3 hours...

They could have been walking into a trap. bombs could have been set. A lot of unknown variables.

(06-17-2016 08:15 AM)klake87 Wrote:  

(06-17-2016 07:57 AM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 09:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 06:14 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-15-2016 04:39 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  I usually don't stick my head in S&N let alone comment but I thought this was useful info for the discussion...


An off duty officer who was working security at the club shot at the shooter before he entered the club.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...elmet.html

I've been wondering about this. How does it take the Orlando PD 3 hours to storm the place? Did they believe there was more than 1 perp?

I don't know about this one but I have a book about Columbine and it seemed like it took a while before they entered the building in any numbers - and due to varying descriptions by people calling 911 in that instance they thought there might have been many attackers including one on the roof. So at this point it's hard to say what they might have thought. Doesn't explain 3 hours though, is that right?

You're correct about Columbine, but there have been procedure updates for police since then. Now, police are trained to neutralize a perp as soon as possible.

It makes sense if they initially thought there was more than 1 perp, but still...3 hours...

They could have been walking into a trap. bombs could have been set. A lot of unknown variables.

I never feel comfortable second guessing the first responders of these situations, and that (booby traps, unknowns) was the argument in the past about why police didn't just rush in.

That said, since Columbine the rules and training were changed, like it was said above. Consensus was that the conservative approach was ultimately more dangerous and that police need to active quickly and aggressively to end it. So I find it surprising that they did wait so long. My gut tells me that going forward law enforcement will use this to back up the philosophy to enter first, question later. I have to wonder what that police officer was doing after he missed the suspect and after the shooting started. I respect that he tried to get as many out as possible, but I have to wonder if he couldn't have done more to put a stop to it. Anyways, its all speculation right now. The final report will be interesting.

(06-17-2016 10:48 AM)niuguy Wrote:  

(06-17-2016 08:15 AM)klake87 Wrote:  

(06-17-2016 07:57 AM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 09:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(06-16-2016 06:14 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  I've been wondering about this. How does it take the Orlando PD 3 hours to storm the place? Did they believe there was more than 1 perp?

I don't know about this one but I have a book about Columbine and it seemed like it took a while before they entered the building in any numbers - and due to varying descriptions by people calling 911 in that instance they thought there might have been many attackers including one on the roof. So at this point it's hard to say what they might have thought. Doesn't explain 3 hours though, is that right?

You're correct about Columbine, but there have been procedure updates for police since then. Now, police are trained to neutralize a perp as soon as possible.

It makes sense if they initially thought there was more than 1 perp, but still...3 hours...

They could have been walking into a trap. bombs could have been set. A lot of unknown variables.

I never feel comfortable second guessing the first responders of these situations, and that (booby traps, unknowns) was the argument in the past about why police didn't just rush in.

That said, since Columbine the rules and training were changed, like it was said above. Consensus was that the conservative approach was ultimately more dangerous and that police need to active quickly and aggressively to end it. So I find it surprising that they did wait so long. My gut tells me that going forward law enforcement will use this to back up the philosophy to enter first, question later. I have to wonder what that police officer was doing after he missed the suspect and after the shooting started. I respect that he tried to get as many out as possible, but I have to wonder if he couldn't have done more to put a stop to it. Anyways, its all speculation right now. The final report will be interesting.

Looking up the details of the Paris attacks last November and there it also took police around 3 hours to the storm the Bataclan after the perps started the attack there, so it's possible that the Orlando PD were worried about traps, but we don't know at this point.

Orlando PD and others took all the necessary precautions to ensure their officers were safe before going in. It was reported that Mateen said he had explosives/snipers around the club, and this information was related by club patrons to 911 operators. Two hours into the incident Mateen told police he planned to strap bombs to people and place them around the building.

LOL at anyone Monday Morning Quarterbacking. This isn't a video game where you immediately rush the building.

(06-17-2016 11:19 PM)PrideinthePack Wrote:  Orlando PD and others took all the necessary precautions to ensure their officers were safe before going in. It was reported that Mateen said he had explosives/snipers around the club, and this information was related by club patrons to 911 operators. Two hours into the incident Mateen told police he planned to strap bombs to people and place them around the building.

LOL at anyone Monday Morning Quarterbacking. This isn't a video game where you immediately rush the building.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nati...tics_N.htm

The first thing the police will do is isolate the problem and establish a perimeter. This way, the shooter(s) will not go from one location to another, like the Virginia Tech shooter. This is helpful if you are a neighbor to the Pulse nightclub, but no so much if you are inside Pulse. It is just a cold mathematical way of minimizing losses.

The person I want to hear from is the off duty policeman that got into the original fire fight with the Radical Islamist. Why did he stop engaging?

(06-20-2016 10:21 AM)niuguy Wrote:  

(06-17-2016 11:19 PM)PrideinthePack Wrote:  Orlando PD and others took all the necessary precautions to ensure their officers were safe before going in. It was reported that Mateen said he had explosives/snipers around the club, and this information was related by club patrons to 911 operators. Two hours into the incident Mateen told police he planned to strap bombs to people and place them around the building.

LOL at anyone Monday Morning Quarterbacking. This isn't a video game where you immediately rush the building.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nati...tics_N.htm

Police tactics is ever evolving. Linking an article from over seven years ago is laughable.