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Can the ACC survive itself?
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IR4CU Offline
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Post: #1
Can the ACC survive itself?
I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.
06-12-2016 02:01 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-12-2016 02:01 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.

I have been verbally attacked by ACC fan boys for referring to the conference as ESPN's version of Frankenstein's monster. I did so precisely for the reasons you presented. It is a conference cobbled together by ESPN in part to shelter Old Big East property they didn't want to fall into Delany's hands when the BTN was still an independent network. In part to keep Florida State from going to the SEC in '91 because it feared the SEC would gain too much leverage. Georgia Tech was the only natural addition that they have made. And, now you can add the hybrid relationship with Notre Dame which at the time was more like an organ donor to keep the conference alive.

The problem now is that the pieces can't move to their natural destinations. IMO Florida State and Clemson do belong in the SEC. I could see the SEC accommodating Virginia Tech as well. N.C. State / North Carolina would only be market grabs. Miami is a decent addition but if we had Florida State do we really need them? I don't think so.

Pitt and Syrcause, and possibly B.C. belong in the Big 10, or back in the Big East.
Virginia and Duke need to drop down a division and join the Ivy League. UNC?

These kinds of placements could have happened before FOX bought the majority interest in the BTN. Then ESPN could have retained the B1G rights and utilized them for Hockey, Lacrosse, and Basketball and used the SEC for Football, Baseball, and Gymnastics. Then the more natural movements would have made some sense.

But to answer your question I think ESPN, like the Gothic Dr., is stuck with the havoc wrought by its creation!
06-12-2016 03:54 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
The ACC is essentially a confederacy of 3 different leagues

The Northern Basketball Schools

-BC
-SU
-PItt
-UL

Tobacco Road + VA

-UVA
-VT
-UNC
-DU
-NCSU
-WF

Southern Football Schools

-FSU
-GT
-CU
-UM

The big problem is that all 3 have very different ideas of how the conference should be run, what its goals are and how to pursue them.
06-12-2016 06:27 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-12-2016 06:27 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The ACC is essentially a confederacy of 3 different leagues

The Northern Basketball Schools

-BC (Big East Basketball School)
-SU(Big East Basketball School)
-PItt (Big East Basketball School)
-UL (Metro School with decent Football after Scnellenberger)

Tobacco Road + VA

-UVA (Wasn't Core ACC initially)
-VT (Big East Football)
-UNC (Core ACC)
-DU (Core ACC)
-NCSU (Core ACC)
-WF (Core ACC)

Southern Football Schools

-FSU (Southern Independent)
-GT (Southern Independent)
-CU (Core ACC School)
-UM (Big East Football School)

The big problem is that all 3 have very different ideas of how the conference should be run, what its goals are and how to pursue them.

My point: There was no cohesion even within the new groups. Nobody can be sure that Clemson will vote with the football first schools as their former president sided with Tobacco Road more than the football schools. Georgia Tech slightly sides with Chapel Hill but mostly sides with nobody.

Miami is more likely to vote with the old Big East schools except for matters pertaining to basketball. And for that matter most of the Old Big East schools that are in the ACC were both football and basketball schools. Syracuse, Pitt and B.C. have all had intermittent success in football as well as basketball. The are not much like the Tobacco Road basketball schools in anyway except with their love of lacrosse.

Louisville hasn't really formed an alliance yet but will probably lean toward what Florida State wants to do. They do form an interesting bridge to the football first schools.
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2016 07:27 PM by JRsec.)
06-12-2016 07:19 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-12-2016 07:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 06:27 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The ACC is essentially a confederacy of 3 different leagues

The Northern Basketball Schools

-BC (Big East Basketball School)
-SU(Big East Basketball School)
-PItt (Big East Basketball School)
-UL (Metro School with decent Football after Scnellenberger)

Tobacco Road + VA

-UVA (Wasn't Core ACC initially)
-VT (Big East Football)
-UNC (Core ACC)
-DU (Core ACC)
-NCSU (Core ACC)
-WF (Core ACC)

Southern Football Schools

-FSU (Southern Independent)
-GT (Southern Independent)
-CU (Core ACC School)
-UM (Big East Football School)

The big problem is that all 3 have very different ideas of how the conference should be run, what its goals are and how to pursue them.

My point: There was no cohesion even within the new groups. Nobody can be sure that Clemson will vote with the football first schools as their former president sided with Tobacco Road more than the football schools. Georgia Tech slightly sides with Chapel Hill but mostly sides with nobody.

Miami is more likely to vote with the old Big East schools except for matters pertaining to basketball. And for that matter most of the Old Big East schools that are in the ACC were both football and basketball schools. Syracuse, Pitt and B.C. have all had intermittent success in football as well as basketball. The are not much like the Tobacco Road basketball schools in anyway except with their love of lacrosse.

Louisville hasn't really formed an alliance yet but will probably lean toward what Florida State wants to do. They do form an interesting bridge to the football first schools.

Carolina was Georgia Tech's sponsor for AAU membership.
06-12-2016 08:24 PM
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NJ2MDTerp Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
The ACC should've invited every northern Big East football school and set up North/South Divisions along the following lines:

North
1. Boston College
2. Connecticut
3. Syracuse
4. Rutgers
5. Temple
6. Pittsburgh
7. West Virginia
8. Virginia Tech
9. Miami

South
1. Maryland
2. Virginia
3. Duke
4. North Carolina
5. North Carolina State
6. Wake Forest
7. Clemson
8. Georgia Tech
9. Florida State
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2016 09:31 PM by NJ2MDTerp.)
06-12-2016 09:30 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-12-2016 06:27 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The ACC is essentially a confederacy of 3 different leagues

The Northern Basketball Schools

-BC
-SU
-PItt
-UL

Tobacco Road + VA

-UVA
-VT
-UNC
-DU
-NCSU
-WF

Southern Football Schools

-FSU
-GT
-CU
-UM

The big problem is that all 3 have very different ideas of how the conference should be run, what its goals are and how to pursue them.

The thing is that the ACC had conflicting interests even before the addition of FSU. That doesn't mean the conference can't remain together IMO. The real issue is that schools like Pitt and 'Cuse aren't good at in football.
06-13-2016 12:26 PM
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megadrone Offline
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RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-12-2016 09:30 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The ACC should've invited every northern Big East football school and set up North/South Divisions along the following lines:

North
1. Boston College
2. Connecticut
3. Syracuse
4. Rutgers
5. Temple
6. Pittsburgh
7. West Virginia
8. Virginia Tech
9. Miami

South
1. Maryland
2. Virginia
3. Duke
4. North Carolina
5. North Carolina State
6. Wake Forest
7. Clemson
8. Georgia Tech
9. Florida State

Tranghese wanted to do some sort of a merger between the two conferences in the late 90s. He went as far as letting the ACC "own" the football side of the house but the deal wasn't finalized.

It might not have been a bad thing if the ACC could have managed it. But all 8 BE teams + 9 ACC teams would have been unwieldy.

Makes you wonder if it could have worked.
06-13-2016 01:22 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-13-2016 01:22 PM)megadrone Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 09:30 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The ACC should've invited every northern Big East football school and set up North/South Divisions along the following lines:

North
1. Boston College
2. Connecticut
3. Syracuse
4. Rutgers
5. Temple
6. Pittsburgh
7. West Virginia
8. Virginia Tech
9. Miami

South
1. Maryland
2. Virginia
3. Duke
4. North Carolina
5. North Carolina State
6. Wake Forest
7. Clemson
8. Georgia Tech
9. Florida State

Tranghese wanted to do some sort of a merger between the two conferences in the late 90s. He went as far as letting the ACC "own" the football side of the house but the deal wasn't finalized.

It might not have been a bad thing if the ACC could have managed it. But all 8 BE teams + 9 ACC teams would have been unwieldy.

Makes you wonder if it could have worked.

There will always be a Wake problem. What conference would want four schools from the same state other than maybe California and Texas and even in Texas 3 is all that is necessary.
06-13-2016 02:59 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-12-2016 02:01 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.

Can the ACC stick together; sure but it has to get a unified vision beyond simply remaining a P5 conference. The 9 game conference schedule makes sense if you take a 10,000 ft view. More inventory allows for a potential increase in disbursements which keeps the ACC in sight of the SEC. In theory that sounds great, but that reality means Clemson has to give up its ability to schedule UGA, AU or UTK in the future for more games against Wake, Pitt or BC. Same for the other football first schools. IMO the BE adds need the more assistance with scheduling, as such I would split ND agreement 4/1 north and south. The Irish can get games anywhere (they are playing Navy in Jax, FL this year) thus don't need the ACC to attain southern exposure.
06-13-2016 04:53 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-13-2016 04:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 02:01 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.

Can the ACC stick together; sure but it has to get a unified vision beyond simply remaining a P5 conference. The 9 game conference schedule makes sense if you take a 10,000 ft view. More inventory allows for a potential increase in disbursements which keeps the ACC in sight of the SEC. In theory that sounds great, but that reality means Clemson has to give up its ability to schedule UGA, AU or UTK in the future for more games against Wake, Pitt or BC. Same for the other football first schools. IMO the BE adds need the more assistance with scheduling, as such I would split ND agreement 4/1 north and south. The Irish can get games anywhere (they are playing Navy in Jax, FL this year) thus don't need the ACC to attain southern exposure.

Notre Dame doesn't exactly need games in the South, but they still want them. They won't give them up because I think it's one of the reasons they are in the ACC to begin with.

I have thought for a while that the ACC's day were numbered just as the Big 12's are, but now I think it depends on whether or not they get a network. Most of these schools really want to stick together so if the network deal gets done and it's profitable then I think the league will be together for a long time.
06-13-2016 08:54 PM
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RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-13-2016 08:54 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 04:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 02:01 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.

Can the ACC stick together; sure but it has to get a unified vision beyond simply remaining a P5 conference. The 9 game conference schedule makes sense if you take a 10,000 ft view. More inventory allows for a potential increase in disbursements which keeps the ACC in sight of the SEC. In theory that sounds great, but that reality means Clemson has to give up its ability to schedule UGA, AU or UTK in the future for more games against Wake, Pitt or BC. Same for the other football first schools. IMO the BE adds need the more assistance with scheduling, as such I would split ND agreement 4/1 north and south. The Irish can get games anywhere (they are playing Navy in Jax, FL this year) thus don't need the ACC to attain southern exposure.

Notre Dame doesn't exactly need games in the South, but they still want them. They won't give them up because I think it's one of the reasons they are in the ACC to begin with.

I have thought for a while that the ACC's day were numbered just as the Big 12's are, but now I think it depends on whether or not they get a network. Most of these schools really want to stick together so if the network deal gets done and it's profitable then I think the league will be together for a long time.


Absolutely correct, one of the reasons ND wanted to join the ACC was access to games in the Southeast.

Southern coaches use the "Its too far away, you will never get to see your son play in person." negative recruiting pitch against ND.

Here is a slightly old map showing the location of ND games. It is a bit dated but gives you an idea about ND's scheduling strategies.

ND wants to play in the Southeast, Southwest and California.

[Image: ND-game-sites.gif]
06-14-2016 12:48 PM
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XLance Offline
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RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-14-2016 12:48 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 08:54 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 04:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 02:01 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.

Can the ACC stick together; sure but it has to get a unified vision beyond simply remaining a P5 conference. The 9 game conference schedule makes sense if you take a 10,000 ft view. More inventory allows for a potential increase in disbursements which keeps the ACC in sight of the SEC. In theory that sounds great, but that reality means Clemson has to give up its ability to schedule UGA, AU or UTK in the future for more games against Wake, Pitt or BC. Same for the other football first schools. IMO the BE adds need the more assistance with scheduling, as such I would split ND agreement 4/1 north and south. The Irish can get games anywhere (they are playing Navy in Jax, FL this year) thus don't need the ACC to attain southern exposure.

Notre Dame doesn't exactly need games in the South, but they still want them. They won't give them up because I think it's one of the reasons they are in the ACC to begin with.

I have thought for a while that the ACC's day were numbered just as the Big 12's are, but now I think it depends on whether or not they get a network. Most of these schools really want to stick together so if the network deal gets done and it's profitable then I think the league will be together for a long time.


Absolutely correct, one of the reasons ND wanted to join the ACC was access to games in the Southeast.

Southern coaches use the "Its too far away, you will never get to see your son play in person." negative recruiting pitch against ND.

Here is a slightly old map showing the location of ND games. It is a bit dated but gives you an idea about ND's scheduling strategies.

ND wants to play in the Southeast, Southwest and California.

[Image: ND-game-sites.gif]

This is probably why we will not see a true north/south divisional alignment when West Virginia comes on board and the Irish finally join on a full time basis.
06-14-2016 03:34 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-14-2016 03:34 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 12:48 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 08:54 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 04:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 02:01 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  I posted this on the ACC board but thought I would post it here as well as I am definitely interested in thoughts from folks from the SEC on this subject.

Notwithstanding any external forces such as the SEC, Big 10, or ESPN, I wonder if the ACC will be able to win the long term battle against it's most deadly enemy - itself. Based on the vitriol from the fans concerning the potential nine game football conference schedule, I have my doubts. On this topic alone, it is clear that the fans are torn, the administrations are torn, and the athletic departments are torn - heck even fans of the same school appear to be torn. No matter how this issue is resolved, some schools are going to be very upset. I think this stems from the fact that as a group, we do not have any overall common ground in terms of history, culture, or athletics. Think about this ... if each ACC institution could have one and only one men's sports program, which sport would each school pick? Clemson, FSU, Miami, and VT would most definitely pick football. GT, Louisville, and NC State would be torn between football and basketball - I think GT would ultimately pick football and NCSU and UL would ultimately pick basketball. Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Wake, and UVA would definitely pick basketball (although Syracuse might pick Lacrosse). I am unsure where Pitt would fall - I am guessing football but it might be basketball?? Boston College would most likely pick hockey. So, is it any wonder that this league goes through so much turmoil on every decision: it really does come down to basketball vs football where we are pretty evenly divided and as far as I have seen so far, none of the schools are truly willing to make significant compromises. Then, if you look at geography and history, we have old Big East vs old ACC and North vs South. It's a wonder this conference hasn't already imploded (or exploded!). Now compare this to the SEC - they have one school (Kentucky) that would select basketball, one school (Vanderbilt) who may select either or possibly baseball - the remaining 12 schools are 100% on board for football. I am not saying that this makes the SEC "better" than the ACC but they are most definitely of the same mind and work together for the same goals as a conference - from a football and ultimately from a revenue standpoint, this has served them very well. Will the ACC ever get to this level of like mindedness? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will and therein lies the true enemy of our conference and the one that ultimately may lead to it's demise at some point in the future.

Can the ACC stick together; sure but it has to get a unified vision beyond simply remaining a P5 conference. The 9 game conference schedule makes sense if you take a 10,000 ft view. More inventory allows for a potential increase in disbursements which keeps the ACC in sight of the SEC. In theory that sounds great, but that reality means Clemson has to give up its ability to schedule UGA, AU or UTK in the future for more games against Wake, Pitt or BC. Same for the other football first schools. IMO the BE adds need the more assistance with scheduling, as such I would split ND agreement 4/1 north and south. The Irish can get games anywhere (they are playing Navy in Jax, FL this year) thus don't need the ACC to attain southern exposure.

Notre Dame doesn't exactly need games in the South, but they still want them. They won't give them up because I think it's one of the reasons they are in the ACC to begin with.

I have thought for a while that the ACC's day were numbered just as the Big 12's are, but now I think it depends on whether or not they get a network. Most of these schools really want to stick together so if the network deal gets done and it's profitable then I think the league will be together for a long time.


Absolutely correct, one of the reasons ND wanted to join the ACC was access to games in the Southeast.

Southern coaches use the "Its too far away, you will never get to see your son play in person." negative recruiting pitch against ND.

Here is a slightly old map showing the location of ND games. It is a bit dated but gives you an idea about ND's scheduling strategies.

ND wants to play in the Southeast, Southwest and California.

[Image: ND-game-sites.gif]

This is probably why we will not see a true north/south divisional alignment when West Virginia comes on board and the Irish finally join on a full time basis.

XLance it might be wiser to add W.V.U., Cincy, UConn, and N.D. and break into three divisions of 6.

Boston College, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, West Virignia

Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Lousiville, N.C. State, Wake Forest

Duke, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Virginia

Take your three division champions and a wild card and play it off.
06-14-2016 03:48 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-14-2016 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 03:34 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 12:48 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 08:54 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(06-13-2016 04:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Can the ACC stick together; sure but it has to get a unified vision beyond simply remaining a P5 conference. The 9 game conference schedule makes sense if you take a 10,000 ft view. More inventory allows for a potential increase in disbursements which keeps the ACC in sight of the SEC. In theory that sounds great, but that reality means Clemson has to give up its ability to schedule UGA, AU or UTK in the future for more games against Wake, Pitt or BC. Same for the other football first schools. IMO the BE adds need the more assistance with scheduling, as such I would split ND agreement 4/1 north and south. The Irish can get games anywhere (they are playing Navy in Jax, FL this year) thus don't need the ACC to attain southern exposure.

Notre Dame doesn't exactly need games in the South, but they still want them. They won't give them up because I think it's one of the reasons they are in the ACC to begin with.

I have thought for a while that the ACC's day were numbered just as the Big 12's are, but now I think it depends on whether or not they get a network. Most of these schools really want to stick together so if the network deal gets done and it's profitable then I think the league will be together for a long time.


Absolutely correct, one of the reasons ND wanted to join the ACC was access to games in the Southeast.

Southern coaches use the "Its too far away, you will never get to see your son play in person." negative recruiting pitch against ND.

Here is a slightly old map showing the location of ND games. It is a bit dated but gives you an idea about ND's scheduling strategies.

ND wants to play in the Southeast, Southwest and California.

[Image: ND-game-sites.gif]

This is probably why we will not see a true north/south divisional alignment when West Virginia comes on board and the Irish finally join on a full time basis.

XLance it might be wiser to add W.V.U., Cincy, UConn, and N.D. and break into three divisions of 6.

Boston College, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, West Virignia

Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Lousiville, N.C. State, Wake Forest

Duke, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Virginia

Take your three division champions and a wild card and play it off.

JR moving to 18 with Cincinnati and UConn would be fine if that pair could deliver their fair share of income.
I would liken it to the SEC adding Houston and Tulane.
06-14-2016 07:46 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
I find it hard to believe that the ACC would have trouble getting the votes needed to a just the number of football conference games by an additional game if it guaranteed them a network, additional revenues, and long term stability.

Now, I understand the concerns of the couple of schools that have permanent yearly rivalries with SEC opponents. I don't see those games going away as they are big money games that drive season ticket sales and fund raising efforts.
06-14-2016 10:21 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-14-2016 10:21 PM)murrdcu Wrote:  I find it hard to believe that the ACC would have trouble getting the votes needed to a just the number of football conference games by an additional game if it guaranteed them a network, additional revenues, and long term stability.

Now, I understand the concerns of the couple of schools that have permanent yearly rivalries with SEC opponents. I don't see those games going away as they are big money games that drive season ticket sales and fund raising efforts.

I'm not saying that this will ever happen but..........

Several Georgia Tech folks that I know will say that they had rather play Auburn than Georgia (there is some real hate between Georgia and Georgia Tech). What you may see in the future is some sort of 4 way rotation between Georgia, Auburn, Georgia Tech and Clemson.
Many of the Clemson people want to get Georgia on their schedules. You never know what might happen in a cross conference situation when the SECN and the ACCN are marketed together. It is curious that South Carolina and North Carolina/North Carolina State have started to schedule one another in Charlotte on a semi regular basis.
(This post was last modified: 06-15-2016 08:55 AM by XLance.)
06-15-2016 08:54 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #18
Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-14-2016 10:21 PM)murrdcu Wrote:  I find it hard to believe that the ACC would have trouble getting the votes needed to a just the number of football conference games by an additional game if it guaranteed them a network, additional revenues, and long term stability.

Now, I understand the concerns of the couple of schools that have permanent yearly rivalries with SEC opponents. I don't see those games going away as they are big money games that drive season ticket sales and fund raising efforts.

FSU & Clemson fans are the only ones fussing about it. It really only affects Clemson since they often schedule 2 P5 opponents which would make nearly impossible to have 7 home games every year. That's been the only opposition to it on the ACC board. If it came with a network & a hefty check I think it would easily be passed. It would depend on the form of the network & the revenue it generated.

The only instate rivalry game that may go away is Louisville & Kentucky. UK hasn't expressed much interest in keeping it going & have eluded to canceling it if the SEC went to 9 games. With the Cats tough conference schedule it may be in their best interest to schedule a more winnable game to increase their chances of making a bowl. If the ACC were to go to 9 games then I would like to see UL use that spot to schedule a higher level P5. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy beating UK but the game has served its purpose, it sparked football interest in the state. I don't think the game will go away completely but if one or both conferences go to 9 games then it will likely become part of a rotation, played every other year or two.
06-15-2016 08:54 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #19
Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-15-2016 08:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 10:21 PM)murrdcu Wrote:  I find it hard to believe that the ACC would have trouble getting the votes needed to a just the number of football conference games by an additional game if it guaranteed them a network, additional revenues, and long term stability.

Now, I understand the concerns of the couple of schools that have permanent yearly rivalries with SEC opponents. I don't see those games going away as they are big money games that drive season ticket sales and fund raising efforts.

I'm not saying that this will ever happen but..........

Several Georgia Tech folks that I know will say that they had rather play Auburn than Georgia (there is some real hate between Georgia and Georgia Tech). What you may see in the future is some sort of 4 way rotation between Georgia, Auburn, Georgia Tech and Clemson.
Many of the Clemson people want to get Georgia on their schedules. You never know what might happen in a cross conference situation when the SECN and the ACCN are marketed together. It is curious that South Carolina and North Carolina/North Carolina State have started to schedule one another in Charlotte on a semi regular basis.

Instead of the ACC & SEC going to 9 games, I would rather see them schedule a "challenge week" or something. This would create additional content for ESPN & the conference networks while resolving the 7 home games & other concerns.
06-15-2016 09:00 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Can the ACC survive itself?
(06-15-2016 09:00 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(06-15-2016 08:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 10:21 PM)murrdcu Wrote:  I find it hard to believe that the ACC would have trouble getting the votes needed to a just the number of football conference games by an additional game if it guaranteed them a network, additional revenues, and long term stability.

Now, I understand the concerns of the couple of schools that have permanent yearly rivalries with SEC opponents. I don't see those games going away as they are big money games that drive season ticket sales and fund raising efforts.

I'm not saying that this will ever happen but..........

Several Georgia Tech folks that I know will say that they had rather play Auburn than Georgia (there is some real hate between Georgia and Georgia Tech). What you may see in the future is some sort of 4 way rotation between Georgia, Auburn, Georgia Tech and Clemson.
Many of the Clemson people want to get Georgia on their schedules. You never know what might happen in a cross conference situation when the SECN and the ACCN are marketed together. It is curious that South Carolina and North Carolina/North Carolina State have started to schedule one another in Charlotte on a semi regular basis.

Instead of the ACC & SEC going to 9 games, I would rather see them schedule a "challenge week" or something. This would create additional content for ESPN & the conference networks while resolving the 7 home games & other concerns.

Who are you going to get to play the professional team in Tuscaloosa?
06-15-2016 09:06 AM
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