(06-13-2016 01:20 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  The ACC will survive because between the schools who put too much importance to the secondary college sport and the ones who simply strive to be average but in the future it will look a LOT different. Those of you who joked about Clemson and FSU having to go to Ames for conference games will eat a lot of crow.

Please List these ACC schools as of 6/13/2016; that "Strive to be average"..??
FLossY Out...

(06-12-2016 06:15 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  1. None of this is new.

2. So in that sense don't worry.

3. NC State would pick football.

4. FSU's bitching is rooted in their own unique history, and their perceived and real shortcomings. They are a girls college that has been a real university only 60 years. With that youth comes a number of issues that only time helps.

5. Clemson's bitching is rooted in their small size and pathological need to always be better than the Gamecocks despite USC's historic financial advantage.

6. No conference changes addresses the internal issues at Clemson and FSU.

7. Likewise, the majority of problems and issues at State College are manufactured internally. Of course UNC meddles and does what it can to undercut State, but when State has **** itself, it was NC State folks leading the charge in an effort to overcome self-perceived shortcomings.

8. X is correct, the only gnashing of teeth is here and it's because the factors I cited above being expressed by folks with sympathetic ties to the various Universities who usually are not told the entire story because the entire story does not always paint the individual university in the best light.

Why blame yourself if you can blame Swofford? Why blame State if you can blame Carolina? Why blame FSU, if you can blame the ACC?

You can't waive a magic wand and make FSU's status as a university magically become 100 years older and on a par with Florida. Nor can NC State wave that wand and age itself 120 years to be on a par with UNC. Nor can Duke replicate or purchase the additional 250 years they need to be on a par with Harvard.


It's summer. It's hot and we are bored. Internet recipe for all sorts of crap.

I think the whole "dysfunctional" aspect of the ACC is a bit overblown in that it's really exacerbated by messed up divisions, some bad business deals, and a sometimes messy process of growth.

I don't think there's anything inherently broken or unworkable about a conference that merges the Atlantic Coast Conference with most of the old eastern independents. That can work, and considering that it's impossible to ever out-SEC the SEC, I think that diversity can be a positive. I also think it can actually be a positive that everybody doesn't have their entire self-value tied up in the exact same goal. There could actually be advantages to not having everybody stepping on each others toes.

That said...

1) You can't just completely be at cross purposes. FSU shouldn't be voting for anything that's likely to hurt Duke's NCAAT seeding, and Wake shouldn't be voting for something that's going to mess up Clemson's football schedule. It's ok not to compete at the highest levels, but this conference has to get out of the way of those that do in the appropriate sport.

2) Even then, if it's not "your thing", going completely in the tank just hurts the conference. It's probably a positive for Clemson not to have to face 6 or 7 $100M+ budget football programs every year in conference. But it's definitely not a help if that means facing only one ranked opponent in conference all year. It would be bad in basketball as well, if the basketball non-blue-bloods were just totally noncompetitive such as the SEC.

3) The money has to be competitive. Not the best necessarily, but it can't get absolutely buried, by the SEC especially.

4) The divisions can't stay the same. Either do what you have to do to get rules repealed, or go to a North/South split, but these divisions just add to and amplify the patchwork image of this conference. The B1G learned it's lesson about trying to balance divisions...geography only makes sense. 8 games, North/South, no crossover. Eventually we have to either say that we're still concerned the old Big East teams don't feel like "real" ACC members and we don't want to hurt their feelings, OR we decide we're just going to accept and put forward that this IS the new ACC, and it isn't afraid to stand on it's own. It's a Southern conference, and it's an Eastern conference, and they are what they are. Trying to "hide" the old Big East schools by shuffling them in with the old guard is actually disruptive to unity, highlights strange bedfellows, and is an insult to the old Big East teams.

It makes this team look and feel like a Frankenconference instead of what it is, a reasonable combination of the ACC and Eastern independents. If you have to put Miami in the North, and protect the FSU-Miami game like the B1G protects Purdue-IU so be it, or go in some original ACC/New ACC split, but the current divisions will never make sense.


A few more decent football showings that feature a couple more programs stepping up, an ACC network that pegs the ACC close to the SEC, go to geographic/traditional alignment, and a lot of these things go away.

Atlantic- FSU, Clemson, GT, NC, Duke, Virginia, WF

Coastal- Miami, VT, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, NC State, BC

FSU/Miami & VT/Virginia are only permanent crossover games.

(06-13-2016 05:05 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  SOUTH - FSU, Clemson, GT, NC, Duke, Virginia, WF

EAST - Miami, VT, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, NC State, BC

FSU/Miami & VT/Virginia are only permanent crossover games.

FIFY. No more "cute" division names, please.

(06-13-2016 05:05 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  SOUTH - FSU, Clemson, GT, NC, Duke, Virginia, WF

EAST - Miami, VT, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, NC State, BC

FSU/Miami & VT/Virginia are only permanent crossover games.

FIFY. No more "cute" division names, please.

(06-12-2016 09:15 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-12-2016 06:47 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  OK ...... uncle! Sorry that I bothered to post - the ACC is fine and there are no issues either real or perceived at the conference level or with any of the member institutions. (Yes, that is dripping with sarcasm!)

Now for the sincere part ..... As a football fan and for that reason alone, I personally do wish that Clemson was in the SEC but I do not hate the ACC. In fact, I have said this before and will say it again - the ACC has been very good for Clemson in the past, is good for Clemson now, and I believe can be good for Clemson into the future. Each member school brings something unique to the conference and I am happy that Clemson is affiliated with each and every ACC school.

Dude, you are fine. There is no shortage of people with strong opinions on this forum. To borrow a football term, this is "big boy" interwebs!

Thanks. I really like some spirited back and forth or "big boy" discussions as you call them - that is a lot of fun! But my issue is this ....... as happens more often than not on these boards, these spirited "discussions" eventually devolve into "little boy" discussions complete with name calling, insults, and a hefty dose of "my dad could beat up your dad". These "little boy" discussions can be entertaining to read but I am just not interested in participating in this type of back and forth. The problem as I see it, is that there are two camps at each extreme - the ACC fan boys (as JR likes to call them) and the "sky is falling" camp. Both camps have valid points but the opposing camp is never willing to acknowledge this and both camps also make some pretty outlandish assertions and do not want to hear about it when they are called out on it ...... and then we spiral down to the "little boy" discussion. Of course as someone recently mentioned in this thread, the biggest problem of all is ..... it is summer, we are hot and we are bored - football season can not get here quick enough! Let the games begin ............

(06-13-2016 05:05 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Atlantic- FSU, Clemson, GT, NC, Duke, Virginia, WF

Coastal- Miami, VT, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, NC State, BC

FSU/Miami & VT/Virginia are only permanent crossover games.

Swap NCSU with either WF or Duke. I believe Duke gets a lot of students from the north, so they might enjoy that division. They would still likely prefer to be with UNC and UVa, so it would probably be WF to do what's best for the conference. And yes, please rename the divisions south and east.

(06-13-2016 06:22 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  

(06-12-2016 09:15 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-12-2016 06:47 PM)IR4CU Wrote:  OK ...... uncle! Sorry that I bothered to post - the ACC is fine and there are no issues either real or perceived at the conference level or with any of the member institutions. (Yes, that is dripping with sarcasm!)

Now for the sincere part ..... As a football fan and for that reason alone, I personally do wish that Clemson was in the SEC but I do not hate the ACC. In fact, I have said this before and will say it again - the ACC has been very good for Clemson in the past, is good for Clemson now, and I believe can be good for Clemson into the future. Each member school brings something unique to the conference and I am happy that Clemson is affiliated with each and every ACC school.

Dude, you are fine. There is no shortage of people with strong opinions on this forum. To borrow a football term, this is "big boy" interwebs!

Thanks. I really like some spirited back and forth or "big boy" discussions as you call them - that is a lot of fun! But my issue is this ....... as happens more often than not on these boards, these spirited "discussions" eventually devolve into "little boy" discussions complete with name calling, insults, and a hefty dose of "my dad could beat up your dad". These "little boy" discussions can be entertaining to read but I am just not interested in participating in this type of back and forth. The problem as I see it, is that there are two camps at each extreme - the ACC fan boys (as JR likes to call them) and the "sky is falling" camp. Both camps have valid points but the opposing camp is never willing to acknowledge this and both camps also make some pretty outlandish assertions and do not want to hear about it when they are called out on it ...... and then we spiral down to the "little boy" discussion. Of course as someone recently mentioned in this thread, the biggest problem of all is ..... it is summer, we are hot and we are bored - football season can not get here quick enough! Let the games begin ............

Yeah, no need for name-calling. Ever. Or foul language.

(06-13-2016 06:36 PM)ren.hoek Wrote:  

(06-13-2016 05:05 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Atlantic- FSU, Clemson, GT, NC, Duke, Virginia, WF

Coastal- Miami, VT, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, NC State, BC

FSU/Miami & VT/Virginia are only permanent crossover games.

Swap NCSU with either WF or Duke. I believe Duke gets a lot of students from the north, so they might enjoy that division. They would still likely prefer to be with UNC and UVa, so it would probably be WF to do what's best for the conference. And yes, please rename the divisions south and east.

I thought Clemson & FSU fans said that its unfair to put Syracuse, WF & BC in the same division? Duke deserves to be with NC & Virginia. With that in mind that's why I put WF in the Atlantic/South. You can name the divisions anything you want, I just used the existing titles.

(06-13-2016 04:49 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I think the whole "dysfunctional" aspect of the ACC is a bit overblown in that it's really exacerbated by messed up divisions, some bad business deals, and a sometimes messy process of growth.

I don't think there's anything inherently broken or unworkable about a conference that merges the Atlantic Coast Conference with most of the old eastern independents. That can work, and considering that it's impossible to ever out-SEC the SEC, I think that diversity can be a positive. I also think it can actually be a positive that everybody doesn't have their entire self-value tied up in the exact same goal. There could actually be advantages to not having everybody stepping on each others toes.

That said...

1) You can't just completely be at cross purposes. FSU shouldn't be voting for anything that's likely to hurt Duke's NCAAT seeding, and Wake shouldn't be voting for something that's going to mess up Clemson's football schedule. It's ok not to compete at the highest levels, but this conference has to get out of the way of those that do in the appropriate sport.

2) Even then, if it's not "your thing", going completely in the tank just hurts the conference. It's probably a positive for Clemson not to have to face 6 or 7 $100M+ budget football programs every year in conference. But it's definitely not a help if that means facing only one ranked opponent in conference all year. It would be bad in basketball as well, if the basketball non-blue-bloods were just totally noncompetitive such as the SEC.

3) The money has to be competitive. Not the best necessarily, but it can't get absolutely buried, by the SEC especially.

4) The divisions can't stay the same. Either do what you have to do to get rules repealed, or go to a North/South split, but these divisions just add to and amplify the patchwork image of this conference. The B1G learned it's lesson about trying to balance divisions...geography only makes sense. 8 games, North/South, no crossover. Eventually we have to either say that we're still concerned the old Big East teams don't feel like "real" ACC members and we don't want to hurt their feelings, OR we decide we're just going to accept and put forward that this IS the new ACC, and it isn't afraid to stand on it's own. It's a Southern conference, and it's an Eastern conference, and they are what they are. Trying to "hide" the old Big East schools by shuffling them in with the old guard is actually disruptive to unity, highlights strange bedfellows, and is an insult to the old Big East teams.

It makes this team look and feel like a Frankenconference instead of what it is, a reasonable combination of the ACC and Eastern independents. If you have to put Miami in the North, and protect the FSU-Miami game like the B1G protects Purdue-IU so be it, or go in some original ACC/New ACC split, but the current divisions will never make sense.


A few more decent football showings that feature a couple more programs stepping up, an ACC network that pegs the ACC close to the SEC, go to geographic/traditional alignment, and a lot of these things go away.

1. Wake has always voted the conference interest in football, not their own selfish interest. That's not the best pick to highlight a "me first" attitude because theirs is not.

4. The makeup of the divisions is a problem. Put the screws to one of Duke, UVa, Pitt, UNC, Miami, GT, or VT if you want to break that logjam and quit acting like NC State, Wake Forest, and Maryland before that were happy as **** to have both BC and Syracuse in their division. Quit talking like it's an issue that only vexes FSU and Clemson, it is not.

(06-13-2016 02:38 PM)HRFlossY Wrote:  

(06-13-2016 01:20 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  The ACC will survive because between the schools who put too much importance to the secondary college sport and the ones who simply strive to be average but in the future it will look a LOT different. Those of you who joked about Clemson and FSU having to go to Ames for conference games will eat a lot of crow.

Please List these ACC schools as of 6/13/2016; that "Strive to be average"..??
FLossY Out...

Boston College
Duke
Georgia Tech
North Carolina
North Carolina State
Pitt
Syracuse
Virginia
VT
Wake

Virginia Tech only has the most ACC titles since the ACC expanded but they strive to be average. great analysis there.

(06-18-2016 07:28 AM)ClemVegas Wrote:  Virginia Tech only has the most ACC titles since the ACC expanded but they strive to be average. great analysis there.

In fairness to VT, they were in a similar situation to FSU near the end of the Bowden era. We'll see how Fuentes does, but I get the impression they want to win and win big.

it makes no sense to judge schools on recent seasons alone. does anybody believe Miami is only striving to be average? lol the same goes for UNC, NC State, etc. they all care about sports. they can't force the most talented recruits to go t their schools though.

(06-18-2016 07:28 AM)ClemVegas Wrote:  Virginia Tech only has the most ACC titles since the ACC expanded but they strive to be average. great analysis there.

Somebody had to win. How many titles have they won since Clemson and FSU got back on their feet?

Clemson has only won 2 titles recently. FSU won 3 in a row with 2 NFL QBs, and Winston was a special talent. They aren'g going to have Winston every season.

ACC was an overall tougher conference when Va Tech was winning it and much better QBs like Matt rYAN. More competitive teams. It has been top heavy the last few years and FSU and Clemson have had some of their best teams ever.

(06-18-2016 11:23 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-18-2016 07:28 AM)ClemVegas Wrote:  Virginia Tech only has the most ACC titles since the ACC expanded but they strive to be average. great analysis there.

Somebody had to win. How many titles have they won since Clemson and FSU got back on their feet?

To say that Virginia Tech "strives to be average" is one of the most absurd things I've read on these boards, and there have been a lot of them.

(06-18-2016 09:03 PM)ClemVegas Wrote:  ACC was an overall tougher conference when Va Tech was winning it and much better QBs like Matt rYAN. More competitive teams. It has been top heavy the last few years and FSU and Clemson have had some of their best teams ever.

That's flat out crazy talk. Go back and compile all the big OOC wins, major bowl wins, and top 10 finishes in that era. It will pale in comparison to the last 3-4 years.

The ACC was a dumpster fire in that era, even with VT putting out a few better than decent teams. The ACC wasn't 2 and a gazillion in major bowls for nothing.

Great teams don't lose to ECU, Boston College, 5-6 NC State and James Madison. Great teams don't go sub .500 in bowl games. Great teams don't lose championship games to 8 win teams that had lost their previous three games by a combined 89-36 score.

The above is what VT did during their "era" of greatness.