I am convinced that the Big 12 either not expanding or doing "just enough" to get a championship game by adding two schools is a recipe for future disaster.

The only way they survive is to be the first to 16, and then to lock those teams together in a 20 year GOR. Ignoring these legalities, here are the new teams and how they could fit together in a conference:

USF and UCF - The two Florida schools as travel partners offer every B12 school a trip to the recruiting grounds of Florida every year and TV access to two Top 20 markets. Right now if you area FLA football player, if you want to play in the big time, you go to UF or FSU - the B12 instantly eats into this recruiting advantage and eats into SEC territory. I am skeptical of the academics - but we can fix that later.

Cinci - WVU travel partner. They probably should have been made an 11th team already. They make sense in expanding markets, recruiting and Cinci is on par academically with some other B12 schools.

BYU and CSU - as western travel partners. BYU is the only other school that brings the combo of national audience, academics and athletic parity (or potential parity). If they were in Denver and not Salt Lake they'd already be a member. CSU eases that burden and brings another alumni-rich area into the B12. Its no different than KSU or TTU in size or academically, and no reason why the increased $$ from B12 membership wouldn't keep the athletic budget up.

That leaves us with team #16. There are three choices here:
Houston, Rice and Tulane

Houston is the obvious member, but I have my doubts that Texas, Baylor (not that their opinions gonna matter) and TCU want to compete with Houston. Tulane is a new market/new state, but New Orleans is not a strong city economically. Given that we have diluted the academics enough, Rice fits the bill - it can be the Vanderbilt of the B12. If you strongly feel it has to be Houston, I won't disagree with you, just sub Houston for Rice in my matrix below.


So how does this conference work?

Pods. Every pod contains a couple natural rivalries - KU/KSU - Tex/OU - BYU/TCU - the FLA schools that make for annual marquee games

B12 Central -- this is the core "old Big 12"
Pod 1 - ISU, KSU, KU, Baylor
Pod 2 - Tex, TTU, OU, OSU

B12 National -- the expansion schools
Pod 3 - BYU, CSU, TCU, Rice/Houston
Pod 4 - Cinci, WVU, UCF, USF

Football: 7 games against your division (B12 Central/National) plus two on a rotating basis against the other division + Championship game in Dallas

Basketball: Home and Home within your pod, then 12 games against all other teams for an 18 game schedule. + 16 team tourney in KC


For old B12 members, almost nothing would change as far as the rivalries/teams they see every year. There are marquee matchups all over the place with home and homes in bball within the pod and annual rivalries preserved in football. Travel is manageable for everyone and not much different than travel in the B1G and better than the Pac-12.

And a B12 network is on the air all over the West (BYU), Colorado (CSU), the current states (TX, OK, KS, IA, WVU), with encroachment into OH and a major anchor in central FL. Other than the Chicago area, this also hits most of the major B12 alumni centers.

Thoughts?

(05-27-2016 10:14 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  I am convinced that the Big 12 either not expanding or doing "just enough" to get a championship game by adding two schools is a recipe for future disaster.

The only way they survive is to be the first to 16, and then to lock those teams together in a 20 year GOR. Ignoring these legalities, here are the new teams and how they could fit together in a conference:

USF and UCF - The two Florida schools as travel partners offer every B12 school a trip to the recruiting grounds of Florida every year and TV access to two Top 20 markets. Right now if you area FLA football player, if you want to play in the big time, you go to UF or FSU - the B12 instantly eats into this recruiting advantage and eats into SEC territory. I am skeptical of the academics - but we can fix that later.

Cinci - WVU travel partner. They probably should have been made an 11th team already. They make sense in expanding markets, recruiting and Cinci is on par academically with some other B12 schools.

BYU and CSU - as western travel partners. BYU is the only other school that brings the combo of national audience, academics and athletic parity (or potential parity). If they were in Denver and not Salt Lake they'd already be a member. CSU eases that burden and brings another alumni-rich area into the B12. Its no different than KSU or TTU in size or academically, and no reason why the increased $$ from B12 membership wouldn't keep the athletic budget up.

That leaves us with team #16. There are three choices here:
Houston, Rice and Tulane

Houston is the obvious member, but I have my doubts that Texas, Baylor (not that their opinions gonna matter) and TCU want to compete with Houston. Tulane is a new market/new state, but New Orleans is not a strong city economically. Given that we have diluted the academics enough, Rice fits the bill - it can be the Vanderbilt of the B12. If you strongly feel it has to be Houston, I won't disagree with you, just sub Houston for Rice in my matrix below.


So how does this conference work?

Pods. Every pod contains a couple natural rivalries - KU/KSU - Tex/OU - BYU/TCU - the FLA schools that make for annual marquee games

B12 Central -- this is the core "old Big 12"
Pod 1 - ISU, KSU, KU, Baylor
Pod 2 - Tex, TTU, OU, OSU

B12 National -- the expansion schools
Pod 3 - BYU, CSU, TCU, Rice/Houston
Pod 4 - Cinci, WVU, UCF, USF

Football: 7 games against your division (B12 Central/National) plus two on a rotating basis against the other division + Championship game in Dallas

Basketball: Home and Home within your pod, then 12 games against all other teams for an 18 game schedule. + 16 team tourney in KC


For old B12 members, almost nothing would change as far as the rivalries/teams they see every year. There are marquee matchups all over the place with home and homes in bball within the pod and annual rivalries preserved in football. Travel is manageable for everyone and not much different than travel in the B1G and better than the Pac-12.

And a B12 network is on the air all over the West (BYU), Colorado (CSU), the current states (TX, OK, KS, IA, WVU), with encroachment into OH and a major anchor in central FL. Other than the Chicago area, this also hits most of the major B12 alumni centers.

Thoughts?

good insight... one disagreement on New Orleans not being strong financially. It is the opposite of that comment. It is the engine of Louisiana and is riding serious strength financially.

i hope for a 16 Big 12 but unfortunately i think it will be at the expense of Texas and Oklahoma.

(05-27-2016 10:14 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  I am convinced that the Big 12 either not expanding or doing "just enough" to get a championship game by adding two schools is a recipe for future disaster.

The only way they survive is to be the first to 16, and then to lock those teams together in a 20 year GOR. Ignoring these legalities, here are the new teams and how they could fit together in a conference:

USF and UCF - The two Florida schools as travel partners offer every B12 school a trip to the recruiting grounds of Florida every year and TV access to two Top 20 markets. Right now if you area FLA football player, if you want to play in the big time, you go to UF or FSU - the B12 instantly eats into this recruiting advantage and eats into SEC territory. I am skeptical of the academics - but we can fix that later.

Cinci - WVU travel partner. They probably should have been made an 11th team already. They make sense in expanding markets, recruiting and Cinci is on par academically with some other B12 schools.

BYU and CSU - as western travel partners. BYU is the only other school that brings the combo of national audience, academics and athletic parity (or potential parity). If they were in Denver and not Salt Lake they'd already be a member. CSU eases that burden and brings another alumni-rich area into the B12. Its no different than KSU or TTU in size or academically, and no reason why the increased $$ from B12 membership wouldn't keep the athletic budget up.

That leaves us with team #16. There are three choices here:
Houston, Rice and Tulane

Houston is the obvious member, but I have my doubts that Texas, Baylor (not that their opinions gonna matter) and TCU want to compete with Houston. Tulane is a new market/new state, but New Orleans is not a strong city economically. Given that we have diluted the academics enough, Rice fits the bill - it can be the Vanderbilt of the B12. If you strongly feel it has to be Houston, I won't disagree with you, just sub Houston for Rice in my matrix below.


So how does this conference work?

Pods. Every pod contains a couple natural rivalries - KU/KSU - Tex/OU - BYU/TCU - the FLA schools that make for annual marquee games

B12 Central -- this is the core "old Big 12"
Pod 1 - ISU, KSU, KU, Baylor
Pod 2 - Tex, TTU, OU, OSU

B12 National -- the expansion schools
Pod 3 - BYU, CSU, TCU, Rice/Houston
Pod 4 - Cinci, WVU, UCF, USF

Football: 7 games against your division (B12 Central/National) plus two on a rotating basis against the other division + Championship game in Dallas

Basketball: Home and Home within your pod, then 12 games against all other teams for an 18 game schedule. + 16 team tourney in KC


For old B12 members, almost nothing would change as far as the rivalries/teams they see every year. There are marquee matchups all over the place with home and homes in bball within the pod and annual rivalries preserved in football. Travel is manageable for everyone and not much different than travel in the B1G and better than the Pac-12.

And a B12 network is on the air all over the West (BYU), Colorado (CSU), the current states (TX, OK, KS, IA, WVU), with encroachment into OH and a major anchor in central FL. Other than the Chicago area, this also hits most of the major B12 alumni centers.

Thoughts?

I wish you were president of the B12

Also wish you would stop ragging on USF academics. They are ranked higher than several existing big12 schools. WV, Texas Tech, Okl State, K State all rank near the bottom of the list.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/3l..._20152016/

God I hope not. Nothing against any particular school, 16 just too many for my tastes.

I think it's great, except that your conference championship game would be a dud. I'm not going to grab stats....but I bet the "Old Big 12" has dozens more national titles and thousands more wins total. It's just not equitable.

I think you'd need to mix up the pods. Protect one team cross pod each year. Mix pods from year to year.

UT/TTech/UCF/USF
Houston/TCU/Baylor/IowaSt
WVU/Cincy/BYU/CSt
OU/OkSt/KSt/KU

UT gets OU, of course. UT then would play the other pods twice every six years. It maintains more balance that way...and the core of "old Big 12" teams would play each other frequently but not yearly.

I'm not convinced having a travel partner is an issue.

Current NCAA rules do not allow more than 2 divisions. You could fake pods by saying pods 1&2 are division A, etc.

There has to be some ROI. The B12 can get the revenue from a championship game without expanding. Adding 2 (questionably) gives them better access to the CFP. Unless you can lure a big name from another conference, going beyond 12 has negative ROI.

Can we stop with the 16 team conferences? The B1G and the ACC can't even support it and you guys want the weakest P5 conference to now support it without nearly equally viable market caps.

(05-27-2016 10:14 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  I am convinced that the Big 12 either not expanding or doing "just enough" to get a championship game by adding two schools is a recipe for future disaster.

The only way they survive is to be the first to 16, and then to lock those teams together in a 20 year GOR. Ignoring these legalities, here are the new teams and how they could fit together in a conference:

USF and UCF - The two Florida schools as travel partners offer every B12 school a trip to the recruiting grounds of Florida every year and TV access to two Top 20 markets. Right now if you area FLA football player, if you want to play in the big time, you go to UF or FSU - the B12 instantly eats into this recruiting advantage and eats into SEC territory. I am skeptical of the academics - but we can fix that later.

Cinci - WVU travel partner. They probably should have been made an 11th team already. They make sense in expanding markets, recruiting and Cinci is on par academically with some other B12 schools.

BYU and CSU - as western travel partners. BYU is the only other school that brings the combo of national audience, academics and athletic parity (or potential parity). If they were in Denver and not Salt Lake they'd already be a member. CSU eases that burden and brings another alumni-rich area into the B12. Its no different than KSU or TTU in size or academically, and no reason why the increased $$ from B12 membership wouldn't keep the athletic budget up.

That leaves us with team #16. There are three choices here:
Houston, Rice and Tulane

Houston is the obvious member, but I have my doubts that Texas, Baylor (not that their opinions gonna matter) and TCU want to compete with Houston. Tulane is a new market/new state, but New Orleans is not a strong city economically. Given that we have diluted the academics enough, Rice fits the bill - it can be the Vanderbilt of the B12. If you strongly feel it has to be Houston, I won't disagree with you, just sub Houston for Rice in my matrix below.


So how does this conference work?

Pods. Every pod contains a couple natural rivalries - KU/KSU - Tex/OU - BYU/TCU - the FLA schools that make for annual marquee games

B12 Central -- this is the core "old Big 12"
Pod 1 - ISU, KSU, KU, Baylor
Pod 2 - Tex, TTU, OU, OSU

B12 National -- the expansion schools
Pod 3 - BYU, CSU, TCU, Rice/Houston
Pod 4 - Cinci, WVU, UCF, USF

Football: 7 games against your division (B12 Central/National) plus two on a rotating basis against the other division + Championship game in Dallas

Basketball: Home and Home within your pod, then 12 games against all other teams for an 18 game schedule. + 16 team tourney in KC


For old B12 members, almost nothing would change as far as the rivalries/teams they see every year. There are marquee matchups all over the place with home and homes in bball within the pod and annual rivalries preserved in football. Travel is manageable for everyone and not much different than travel in the B1G and better than the Pac-12.

And a B12 network is on the air all over the West (BYU), Colorado (CSU), the current states (TX, OK, KS, IA, WVU), with encroachment into OH and a major anchor in central FL. Other than the Chicago area, this also hits most of the major B12 alumni centers.

Thoughts?

A waste of time..........not even remotely close to ever happeninng

16 may be right at some point down the line, but as a previous poster said "at the expense of Texas and Oklahoma. I think it would be at the expense of Kansas and possibly a couple more - West Virginia? Oklahoma St?

If those 5 left, a group of 16 would be something like:

West Pod: San Diego St, Boise St, BYU, Colorado St
Texas Pod: Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Houston
Central Pod: Iowa St, Kansas St, Memphis, Cincinnati
East Pod: Tulane, USF, UCF, Connecticut/Temple/?

Do I think the 16 happens? No. Once the big boys of the XII leave, the conference is toast. The rest find homes in the Mountain West or American.

I still think the Texoma-4 head to the PAC. Kansas to the B1G. West Virginia might find a home in the ACC or SEC. This leaves TCU, Baylor, Kansas St, Iowa St, and possibly West Virginia.

Both of those conferences could see 16 members. Mountain West adds: BYU, TCU, Baylor, and take Houston. American adds: Iowa St, Kansas St, West Virginia, and Rice.

But who knows.

Just add Two:

Cinci and Akron to help WVU and call it a day

Odds of 12 teams....20%
14 teams.... 2%
.............16 teams... .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

(05-27-2016 10:14 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  I am convinced that the Big 12 either not expanding or doing "just enough" to get a championship game by adding two schools is a recipe for future disaster.

The only way they survive is to be the first to 16, and then to lock those teams together in a 20 year GOR. Ignoring these legalities, here are the new teams and how they could fit together in a conference:

USF and UCF - The two Florida schools as travel partners offer every B12 school a trip to the recruiting grounds of Florida every year and TV access to two Top 20 markets. Right now if you area FLA football player, if you want to play in the big time, you go to UF or FSU - the B12 instantly eats into this recruiting advantage and eats into SEC territory. I am skeptical of the academics - but we can fix that later.

Cinci - WVU travel partner. They probably should have been made an 11th team already. They make sense in expanding markets, recruiting and Cinci is on par academically with some other B12 schools.

BYU and CSU - as western travel partners. BYU is the only other school that brings the combo of national audience, academics and athletic parity (or potential parity). If they were in Denver and not Salt Lake they'd already be a member. CSU eases that burden and brings another alumni-rich area into the B12. Its no different than KSU or TTU in size or academically, and no reason why the increased $$ from B12 membership wouldn't keep the athletic budget up.

That leaves us with team #16. There are three choices here:
Houston, Rice and Tulane

Houston is the obvious member, but I have my doubts that Texas, Baylor (not that their opinions gonna matter) and TCU want to compete with Houston. Tulane is a new market/new state, but New Orleans is not a strong city economically. Given that we have diluted the academics enough, Rice fits the bill - it can be the Vanderbilt of the B12. If you strongly feel it has to be Houston, I won't disagree with you, just sub Houston for Rice in my matrix below.


So how does this conference work?

Pods. Every pod contains a couple natural rivalries - KU/KSU - Tex/OU - BYU/TCU - the FLA schools that make for annual marquee games

B12 Central -- this is the core "old Big 12"
Pod 1 - ISU, KSU, KU, Baylor
Pod 2 - Tex, TTU, OU, OSU

B12 National -- the expansion schools
Pod 3 - BYU, CSU, TCU, Rice/Houston
Pod 4 - Cinci, WVU, UCF, USF

Football: 7 games against your division (B12 Central/National) plus two on a rotating basis against the other division + Championship game in Dallas

Basketball: Home and Home within your pod, then 12 games against all other teams for an 18 game schedule. + 16 team tourney in KC


For old B12 members, almost nothing would change as far as the rivalries/teams they see every year. There are marquee matchups all over the place with home and homes in bball within the pod and annual rivalries preserved in football. Travel is manageable for everyone and not much different than travel in the B1G and better than the Pac-12.

And a B12 network is on the air all over the West (BYU), Colorado (CSU), the current states (TX, OK, KS, IA, WVU), with encroachment into OH and a major anchor in central FL. Other than the Chicago area, this also hits most of the major B12 alumni centers.

Thoughts?

Some real good ideas. But who adds to a TV network most? Rice, Houston, Temple, Memphis, UConn or CSU? I wish I knew.

How do those additions get the B12 bring ESPN or FOX to the table to start a network?

Nm

(05-27-2016 08:57 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  How do those additions get the B12 bring ESPN or FOX to the table to start a network?

ESPN would know who could attract eyeballs. G5 schools do a lot better when they are featured on ABC (Temple), ESPN and ESPN 2.

Boise State, Houston, East Carolina, UCF, Fresno State, BYU and UNR hAve been steady with a million viewers or more on those ESPN Networks. Boise State is like A cash cow for ESPN.

(05-27-2016 09:59 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 08:57 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  How do those additions get the B12 bring ESPN or FOX to the table to start a network?

ESPN would know who could attract eyeballs. G5 schools do a lot better when they are featured on ABC (Temple), ESPN and ESPN 2.

Boise State, Houston, East Carolina, UCF, Fresno State, BYU and UNR hAve been steady with a million viewers or more on those ESPN Networks. Boise State is like A cash cow for ESPN.

You left out Arkansas Tech and NDSU!

(05-27-2016 01:12 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I'm not convinced having a travel partner is an issue.

Current NCAA rules do not allow more than 2 divisions. You could fake pods by saying pods 1&2 are division A, etc.

How is that "faking pods"? That's what pods are, groups of schools that rotate around to form a different pair of divisions each year.

Year 1: Div1 = Pod 1 & 2, Div2 = Pod 3 & 4
Year 2: Div1 = Pod 1 & 3, Div2 = Pod 2 & 4
Year 3: Div1 = Pod 1 & 4, Div2 = Pod 2 & 3
Year 4-6, repeat, swapping Home & Away.

That is, of course, the weakness of the pod system ... the endlessly rotating divisions means that there are weaker connections across groups than within groups, and it's never possible to form four perfectly satisfactory groups of 4 and/or 5.

(05-27-2016 09:59 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 08:57 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  How do those additions get the B12 bring ESPN or FOX to the table to start a network?

ESPN would know who could attract eyeballs. G5 schools do a lot better when they are featured on ABC (Temple), ESPN and ESPN 2.

Boise State, Houston, East Carolina, UCF, Fresno State, BYU and UNR hAve been steady with a million viewers or more on those ESPN Networks. Boise State is like A cash cow for ESPN.

I would expect that a B12N with these teams would have worse distribution problems than the PACN. It's not just markets, it's also needs a demand which only comes from large fan support. For example, Alabama has a relatively small market while Rice is located in a large market. If you're a network, which would you rather have? The Tide are far more valuable.

Good idea but bringing in UConn is a must for Big 12 if a network is going to be started.

I think the pool is BYU, Cincy, Uconn, Memphis, Houston and Colorado State for 2-4 spots. No way the big 12 expand to 16. If the big 12 expands to 14, i think houston gets a spot but if they expand its probably 12 and that's it. Best move is BYU and cincy or Uconn.