Before I begin, understand that I am not interested in any bitter arguments over this issue. NO ONE is going to change their mind on a dime or after reading one or two posts. Those things take time, prayer, study and mediation on the scriptures. It does no one any good at all to bicker and get emotional about it, and does not bear any good fruit for anyone.

For those who already see the rapture in scripture, I just want to help arm you with the verses that prove the whole thing from MULTIPLE angles. If you are unsure, studying these scriptures should help you get a much better feel for it.

For those who are hardcore dogmatic AGAINST a pre trib or pre wrath rapture, I welcome any constructive posts and criticisms. Iron sharpens Iron.

I would only ask in advance that we stick to scriptures and not turn it into a "link" war. Doctrines on all sides of this issue have a gazillion possible links they could post, so lets not waste time with that. Lets just keep it simple, constructive and within the scriptures.

Feel free to share this info with others who may be interested.

Peace to you all

Lets begin with some of the most blunt rapture verses of all.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.


What is the "wrath" to come? The ugly judgments in Revelation on the wicked.

Rev 6:17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now lets look at some of the key rapture scriptures from Paul and see if anyone but the Body of Christ will hear the call and rise.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now unless someone thinks the wicked are going to be raised and put on incorruption (glorified body), clearly the text leaves no room at all for the wicked to be raised here.

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What about the dead who are not in Christ? obviously the wicked play no part in this event at all.

Also.....

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

We see here the wicked will not even hear the trump or the voice at the rapture. Only those in Christ will.

Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

A separate Resurrection of the Just

If you look closely, the Church is standing in heaven from Revelation 4 onward before the first seal is ever broken.

The 24 elders are already wearing crowns and white robes (Rev 4:4) and are sitting before the throne of God.

Revelation 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

Compare this with Revelation 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

John called himself THE ELDER in 2nd John 1:1 and 3rd John 1:1

We also see the connection of the Elders and the the City gates and foundation of New Jerusalem, the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles.. Rev 21:12-14

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much PEOPLE in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God

Revelation 19:7-8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his WIFE hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Compare this description with Rev 3:4-5
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


The phrase "is come" is used multiple times in the bible and means it is already here. (Matt 7:12, 8:11, Rev 6:17, LK 10:9, Lk 11:20, ect)

We see here Christ and His WIFE, she is no longer His bride, she is now His WIFE.

Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (Jude 1:14-15, Zechariah 14:5)

We all exit heaven wearing our pure white robes and return to the Earth with the Lord for the 2nd coming.

Revelation 14 shows us two different harvests. The first is Jesus collecting His bride, the second is the second coming.

Revelation 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.



17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Rev 19:15

In the 2nd coming, Jesus is not coming FOR His saints, He is coming WITH His saints.

Zechariah 14:5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revelation 19:11 & 14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I consider myself a serious Christian, but I try to stay completely away from this issue. I figure when God is ready for me to know the answer, He will tell me. The whole thing, and the Left Behind books and all of that, really reminds me of the old Pharisees. They had worked out from Jewish scripture exactly what Jesus was going to be like and how He was going to come and all of that, and when He didn't come exactly that way, they missed the boat on who He was. I figure whatever happens will be somehow a surprise, but an eminently predictable one, and after the fact we can come up with all sorts of reasons why we should have expected exactly what happened. But I don't want to miss the Second Coming because I got all wrapped up in what I was expecting to happen, and it didn't go down that way.

(05-26-2016 11:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The old Pharisees had worked out from Jewish scripture exactly what Jesus was going to be like and how He was going to come and all of that, and when He didn't come exactly that way, they missed the boat on who He was. I figure whatever happens will be somehow a surprise, but an eminently predictable one, and after the fact we can come up with all sorts of reasons why we should have expected exactly what happened. But I don't want to miss the Second Coming because I got all wrapped up in what I was expecting to happen, and it didn't go down that way.

Are you aware Jesus said that because they weren't prepared and didn't KNOW the season of His visitation that they were cut off and blinded from the Kingdom of God?

Jesus said over and over again that the Jews were destroyed for a lack of Knowledge and not KNOWING who He was BECAUSE OF THE OT PROPHETS.

Luke 19:44
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luke 19:42
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,

John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

God tells us to STUDY His Word so we will not be in ignorance of these things. You don't have to predict world events. Just know He is coming for you FIRST, and that is a separate event from the 2nd coming. Be careful not to be willingly ignorant of it.

Remember the parable of the 10 Virgins in Matthew. All 10 went out to seek the bridegroom, but 5 were foolish and 5 were wise. All 10 considered themselves Christians, thus all 10 are virgins. (2 Cor 11:2)

Its not as impossible as some make out, it just takes serious and dedicated studies, an open heart and patience. There are a limited amount of passages on this or any subject. Identify ALL of them, separate them and compare them in context.

When a person TRULY gets serious about studying the bible, its the most rewarding experience you can have right now.

The facts I laid out here are incredibly strong, and have been tried and tested by many people for many years. These have been the KEY scriptures on the subject for almost 2000 years.

I just want to help streamline the info for those who want to know the truth.

The bible can be understood on a much deeper level much faster now thanks to the internet. (if used for first hand scripture study, word studies, parallel verses together on one screen, commentary/teaching, and discussions on differences of opinion)

(05-26-2016 01:46 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(05-26-2016 11:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The old Pharisees had worked out from Jewish scripture exactly what Jesus was going to be like and how He was going to come and all of that, and when He didn't come exactly that way, they missed the boat on who He was. I figure whatever happens will be somehow a surprise, but an eminently predictable one, and after the fact we can come up with all sorts of reasons why we should have expected exactly what happened. But I don't want to miss the Second Coming because I got all wrapped up in what I was expecting to happen, and it didn't go down that way.

Are you aware Jesus said that because they weren't prepared and didn't KNOW the season of His visitation that they were cut off and blinded from the Kingdom of God?
Jesus said over and over again that the Jews were destroyed for a lack of Knowledge and not KNOWING who He was BECAUSE OF THE OT PROPHETS.
Luke 19:44
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luke 19:42
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,
John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

But it's not that they didn't know because they hadn't studied. The people that He took on repeatedly were the most learned and studious. All it took to be saved was childlike faith and belief. Which the Pharisees and Sadducees couldn't handle because of their preconceived notions.

If you want to study as intently as you obviously have, I'm not going to condemn you. More power to you, you have my admiration, to be quite serious about it.

But I want to be the little kid who can accept with childlike faith, and therefore I'm not going to get myself bogged down in issues like whether I'm pre-millennial or post-millennial. I'm just looking forward to the day when we find out which one. And my guess is that it's going to be something different from either one, but something that you will realize was entirely predictable once you see it happen. Just like Jesus the first time.

(05-26-2016 11:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I consider myself a serious Christian

Interesting...lol

(05-26-2016 01:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But it's not that they didn't know because they hadn't studied. The people that He took on repeatedly were the most learned and studious. All it took to be saved was childlike faith and belief. Which the Pharisees and Sadducees couldn't handle because of their preconceived notions.

If you want to study as intently as you obviously have, I'm not going to condemn you. More power to you, you have my admiration, to be quite serious about it.

The fact that they were wicked, corrupt men who murdered the prophets is far more insight into why they did not "know the hour of their visitation" as Christ said. Jesus called them vipers and murders of the prophets multiple times. They were not willing to accpet Jesus because He was a threat to their power. They had been murdering the prophets for generations.

I appreciate your comment and hope you don't take my reply the wrong way. I just noticed you kinda didn't get the whole issue there with the Jewish leadership and Jesus.

As I said, this material on the rapture is not as complicated as people make out. Cherry picking whats important in the NT makes me a bit nervous though. Again, I would refer you to the 10 Virgins of whom 5 were foolish and got left out of the Kingdom.

Here are some verses that might interest you on this topic.


1 Thess 5:8
Prove all things, hold fast that which is good


Isaiah 34:16
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

Proverbs 2:1-6
1 My son, if you receive my words, And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Lets look at Matthew 24:29-31, because this is really vital to understanding. Most people who don't believe in a rapture will go strait to these verse to argue their point.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the 2nd coming (not the rapture, no Resurrection, graves or the dead are mentioned here). This is the fulfillment of the Wheat and tares and the separation of the sheep and the goats.

Compare it with these verses:

Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

and


Matthew 13:30
Let both (wheat & tares) grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

verse 38-42
38 ...the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So at the 2nd coming, Christ will sent the reapers (angles to gather all the wicked (tares , goats) and cast them into the fire. Then the reapers gather the wheat (surviving tribulation saints, sheep) into His new 1000 year Kingdom.

The 1000 Year Kingdom is ruled with a Rod Of Iron by Christ and His Saints from the rapture and the people killed for Him in the tribulation. (Rev 20:4-6) They will reign with Him as priests and Kings of the earth during the 1000 years.

You'd be more Christian if you spent more time tending to the sick and needy, instead of posting.

Sorry my friends, I left out the passage on the sheep and goats in that last post, I corrected it.

(05-27-2016 09:13 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  You'd be more Christian if you spent more time tending to the sick and needy, instead of posting.

I don't think that's quite fair...if you were being serious.

This notion that you can't do more than one thing at a time is lame. Plus, you can't judge a man's heart. Eric's just doing what he feels called to do. Now, I differ with a lot of his tactics, but I can't bash him for his effort without knowing him.

Best thing to do LS, if you're a Christian, is to pray for him.

(05-27-2016 09:38 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 09:13 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  You'd be more Christian if you spent more time tending to the sick and needy, instead of posting.

I don't think that's quite fair...if you were being serious.

This notion that you can't do more than one thing at a time is lame. Plus, you can't judge a man's heart. Eric's just doing what he feels called to do. Now, I differ with a lot of his tactics, but I can't bash him for his effort without knowing him.

Best thing to do LS, if you're a Christian, is to pray for him.

Thank you

Pray for me in all things, just as I pray for those here in all things.

(05-27-2016 09:38 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 09:13 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  You'd be more Christian if you spent more time tending to the sick and needy, instead of posting.

I don't think that's quite fair...if you were being serious.

I'm not going to fall all over myself apologizing for disagreeing with someone. There is no point in offering abashed, apprehensive and tepid opinions on a forum whose purpose is to discuss politics and other hot-button issues.

The real losers in this thread are Christians who aren't into all this pseudo-scientific creationism, revelationism and star-gazing. This poster takes all of the all of the community, the hope, the uplift that comes with the best parts of religion and distills it into astrology, randomly formatted quotes from a book compiled from creation myths and compendiums of ancient remembered history all over the Earth.... and then tells the rest of us to get on board the End Time Train.

Fvck that. This is nutso-cuckoo stuff where the goalposts move all the time.

FWIW, I am not here to debate or convince to convince the other guy: I'm here to remain rational and convince people in the reading audience.

(05-27-2016 12:39 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I'm not going to fall all over myself apologizing for disagreeing with someone. There is no point in offering abashed, apprehensive and tepid opinions on a forum whose purpose is to discuss politics and other hot-button issues.

The real losers in this thread are Christians who aren't into all this pseudo-scientific creationism, revelationism and star-gazing. This poster takes all of the all of the community, the hope, the uplift that comes with the best parts of religion and distills it into astrology, randomly formatted quotes from a book compiled from creation myths and compendiums of ancient remembered history all over the Earth.... and then tells the rest of us to get on board the End Time Train.

Fvck that. This is nutso-cuckoo stuff where the goalposts move all the time.

FWIW, I am not here to debate or convince to convince the other guy: I'm here to remain rational and convince people in the reading audience.

You are free to post and say whatever you want about me or my faith.

I have no desire at all to stop you. I would rather people see your words and reactions.

People are free to click on the thread or just ignore it. If the bible is important to them they can click and read, if the bible is meaningless to them, no one forces them to read it.

Those who are generally interested can read these scriptures for themselves and make up their own minds about them.

That is the whole point here.

(05-27-2016 12:39 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 09:38 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 09:13 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  You'd be more Christian if you spent more time tending to the sick and needy, instead of posting.

I don't think that's quite fair...if you were being serious.

I'm not going to fall all over myself apologizing for disagreeing with someone. There is no point in offering abashed, apprehensive and tepid opinions on a forum whose purpose is to discuss politics and other hot-button issues.

The real losers in this thread are Christians who aren't into all this pseudo-scientific creationism, revelationism and star-gazing. This poster takes all of the all of the community, the hope, the uplift that comes with the best parts of religion and distills it into astrology, randomly formatted quotes from a book compiled from creation myths and compendiums of ancient remembered history all over the Earth.... and then tells the rest of us to get on board the End Time Train.

Fvck that. This is nutso-cuckoo stuff where the goalposts move all the time.

FWIW, I am not here to debate or convince to convince the other guy: I'm here to remain rational and convince people in the reading audience.

I was not talking about you merely disagreeing with him...I was talking about your insinuation that he doesn't take time to minister to or help the sick and needy just because he posts on this message board. That's all.

Hell, I disagree with nearly everything he interprets from his reading of the Bible...lol