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Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:47 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(05-13-2016 07:32 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  Part of me still likes the way the Big 12 does its revenue, i.e. equal for the old "tiers" 1 and 2 and the schools controlling tier 3. Intuitively the most valuable brands should get more of the pie, and the market determines how much more. Admittedly it does create instability as we are seeing, but I still like it intuitively. Maybe that's just the free market side of me talking...

It depends also on what they can do with a conference wide network.
I think equal revenue sharing for TV across the board is probably best conference wide. OSU sill has a nice advantage over Purdue, they sell many more tickets and at higher prices. The top producers also get a bigger cut of the bowl playoff revenue I believe.

Is the last part true? I thought that was split equally, too.
05-13-2016 02:49 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:40 PM)Tigeer Wrote:  All this talk depends on if you see the conference as the corporation or each individual unit within the conference as a corporation. We have an example of the former in pro sports, the NFL and of the later in pro sports, MLB. Which is more successful to you? I will let you make the call.

Hmmm. This seems like causation/correlation trap... To take "which is more successful" and only look at one variable and attribute that to that variable is flawed, IMO. Overly simplified at a minimum.
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2016 02:53 PM by Frog in the Kitchen Sink.)
05-13-2016 02:52 PM
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ccbfan Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
The Big XII is a conference waiting to implode.

Every non-OU big twelve member should hope and pray Texas, ESPN renews the LHN because LHN is the only reason why Texas isn't in the PAC 12 or B1G.

At that point its everyone for themselves cause the Big 12 will not have OU and Texas and probably a few more other schools. (So if you're one of the little 8, hope you're one of the other schools)

Big 10 is not going to allow Texas to bring another with them. Texas will have to come with another school that the Big 10 likes (ala Kansas, ND, OU, UVA, UNC)

For the Pac 12, some programs might be be able to hitch the Texas OU wagon but the majority the answer is no.

Schools like KSU, ISU, Baylor, TCU, WVU are probably **** out of luck.
05-13-2016 02:54 PM
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Mestophalies Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
The Big 12 is in deed, the Big East 2.0. Death to the Big 12, make way for the American! 05-stirthepot
05-13-2016 02:55 PM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:54 PM)ccbfan Wrote:  The Big XII is a conference waiting to implode.

Every non-OU big twelve member should hope and pray Texas, ESPN renews the LHN because LHN is the only reason why Texas isn't in the PAC 12 or B1G.

At that point its everyone for themselves cause the Big 12 will not have OU and Texas and probably a few more other schools. (So if you're one of the little 8, hope you're one of the other schools)

Big 10 is not going to allow Texas to bring another with them. Texas will have to come with another school that the Big 10 likes (ala Kansas, ND, OU, UVA, UNC)

For the Pac 12, some programs might be be able to hitch the Texas OU wagon but the majority the answer is no.

Schools like KSU, ISU, Baylor, TCU, WVU are probably **** out of luck.

I love to start a new league with WVU.
05-13-2016 02:59 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:54 PM)ccbfan Wrote:  The Big XII is a conference waiting to implode.

Every non-OU big twelve member should hope and pray Texas, ESPN renews the LHN because LHN is the only reason why Texas isn't in the PAC 12 or B1G.

At that point its everyone for themselves cause the Big 12 will not have OU and Texas and probably a few more other schools. (So if you're one of the little 8, hope you're one of the other schools)

Big 10 is not going to allow Texas to bring another with them. Texas will have to come with another school that the Big 10 likes (ala Kansas, ND, OU, UVA, UNC)

For the Pac 12, some programs might be be able to hitch the Texas OU wagon but the majority the answer is no.

Schools like KSU, ISU, Baylor, TCU, WVU are probably **** out of luck.

There is uncertainty to be sure, but people forget the league has a lot going for it, as well. Very strong recruiting grounds, lots of history, very strong coaching in football and basketball, big budgets and top facilities across the board. And especially wrt to the PAC-12 (the most likely suitor for teams, IMO) there are real issues with time zone travel and revenue potential. And the drying up of the ESPN/Fox coffers makes me wonder if we are heading to a paradoxical period of stability. Bottom line, hard to know what is going to happen. Lots of variables in play.
05-13-2016 03:04 PM
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Carolina Stang Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
Hey Sink -

When the time comes, just remember your old conference rival 30 miles to the east please...we lost our invite to your conference last time!
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2016 03:09 PM by Carolina Stang.)
05-13-2016 03:08 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:02 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(05-13-2016 01:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  The corollary:

Manager comes to the highest producer who makes double what everybody else does and says we need your extra money to make everybody even. Would anybody good want to work there?

I wouldn't.

But in sports, a big factor driving the popularity is competitive balance.

How many people watch Ohio State vs Indiana in football? Almost no one, because Indiana has been uncompetitive for years.

It is in Ohio State's best interest to be in a strong conference. OSU can't be #1 every year, so in those years it's a lot better to be able to tell your fans that it's ok because you played great competition. It might look like it costs them $10 million/year or more to share revenue with weaker schools, but in the long run they end up ahead because the whole conference is more competitive.

Texas is the most valuable CFB brand in the country. They should make head-and-shoulders more than even Florida and Ohio State. The only reason they don't is that they've driven away their highest-quality partners. Texas is that guy in the office who destroys relationships with his coworkers.

The same issue does not apply in real estate. But a similar effect does apply in other office settings - salespeople get paid salaries when they deal with relationship customers. If the salesperson changes occasionally, the customer wants to be guaranteed that they'll have a smooth transition and that the old salesperson will share his wisdom about the client with the new salesperson. In that setting, hell yes I'd fire a guy who acted like Texas.
05-13-2016 03:09 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
Keep in mind the majority of the Big 12 revenue is shared equally. It's just the 3rd tier that is driven by the market. To me that is the best of both worlds. Teams that are more valued in the market get some increased compensation, but that is based on the market and not some contrived and flawed formula based on TV appearances or the like.
05-13-2016 03:24 PM
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superdeluxe Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:54 PM)ccbfan Wrote:  For the Pac 12, some programs might be be able to hitch the Texas OU wagon but the majority the answer is no.

I think back in 2012..When it appeared that OU/OSU was going to pac-12 to make it a pac-14. I think the Pac-12 would have voted yes if Texas was attached.
05-13-2016 03:39 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
Frog, technically correct ... but when the XII is distributing $20 million per school, and then Texas rakes in another $15 million on top of that compared to probably peanuts for some others, to me that seems clearly not in the spirit of what you're suggesting.

Maybe if it was $6 million for Texas and $2-4 million for everyone else, it would be easier to swallow as simply "market economics". But at some point, greed rears its ugly head ...

I've always been taught that if you help your neighbor fix up his house, then home values go up for everyone.
05-13-2016 03:46 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 03:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  How many people watch Ohio State vs Indiana in football? Almost no one, because Indiana has been uncompetitive for years.

Indiana has been uncompetitive for years ... even though Indiana has been receiving an equal share of Big Ten revenue for all those years.

If taking TV money away from the high-value programs and giving it away to the low-value football programs doesn't make all of them much better in football, then the redistribution of money is just a pure giveaway.

Also, it's not in Ohio State's best interest to be in a conference of 14 football equals. The "kings" of college football have legacies that depend on almost always having a lopsided W-L record. In that regard, CFB is not like the NFL; it's more like a European soccer league. Ohio State and Michigan football are more like Real Madrid and Barcelona, with a reputation built on a history of curb-stomping almost everyone except each other within their own league.
05-13-2016 03:47 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 03:46 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Frog, technically correct ... but when the XII is distributing $20 million per school, and then Texas rakes in another $15 million on top of that compared to probably peanuts for some others, to me that seems clearly not in the spirit of what you're suggesting.

Maybe if it was $6 million for Texas and $2-4 million for everyone else, it would be easier to swallow as simply "market economics". But at some point, greed rears its ugly head ...

I've always been taught that if you help your neighbor fix up his house, then home values go up for everyone.

Maybe it is just perspective coming from making 1 million a year a few short years ago, but I just don't feel like we are hurting for revenue right now. Certainly walking around the campus and looking at all the athletic facility enhancements we aren't hurting.

Which leads to me to another thought- is there a point with revenue where more doesn't really matter, a point of dimishing returns. If you're budgets are strong, salaries are competitive, facilities are state of the art.. what more is there to spend on? At some point does the competitive advantage of "more" in terms of athletics start to level off?

If Texas is making more that goes to the general fund or some other area of need, it just doesn't bother me. I don't feel like we are disadvantaged in the current state of affairs. Maybe I'm naive, but the proof is in the on the field pudding, I think.
05-13-2016 04:07 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
Frog, a very solid opinion. And probably matches the average TCU fan. Which is why TCU is probably a low risk for wanting to shake up the XII.

OU fans, on the other hand may not feel so dismissive of such a glaring disparity.


Ohio State may indeed earn more of the BTN revenue than is given to them, but their willingness to share with programs like Mich St and Indiana is what enables a Mich St to go from middling (22-26 from 2003-2006 under John L Smith) to CFP playoffs (87-33 from 2007-present under Mark Dantonio).
05-13-2016 04:41 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
On Tier 3 Texas gets about 15 Million LHN. Oklahoma, WVU and Kansas get around 6 Million with their independent deals.
This issue is, if you expand, and do a conference wide exclusive network can everyone get 6-7 Million and or more years down the road. Does it brand the conference better? Do you want the brand in Ohio, Tennessee, Florida, NY?
05-13-2016 04:52 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 04:41 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Frog, a very solid opinion. And probably matches the average TCU fan. Which is why TCU is probably a low risk for wanting to shake up the XII.

OU fans, on the other hand may not feel so dismissive of such a glaring disparity.


Ohio State may indeed earn more of the BTN revenue than is given to them, but their willingness to share with programs like Mich St and Indiana is what enables a Mich St to go from middling (22-26 from 2003-2006 under John L Smith) to CFP playoffs (87-33 from 2007-present under Mark Dantonio).

I don't think you can simply attribute the turnaround of Mich St to shared revenue. So many variables in play. The question I have is if the Mich St. football budget would have been different if the Big 10 revenue had been shared unequally over that period. My guess is not. My current theory is that the excess "gravy" revenue money is going elsewhere for most schools. There isn't a huge competitive advantage to getting more money in terms of translating to the field success.
05-13-2016 05:13 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 02:21 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  this is getting dangerously close to a capitalism vs. socialism debate...I'll leave that for the spin room!

Well its always funny when Big 10 fans make this argument, but don't want to share Big 10 revenues with the other P5, let alone the G5.
05-13-2016 05:16 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
(05-13-2016 03:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-13-2016 02:02 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(05-13-2016 01:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  The corollary:

Manager comes to the highest producer who makes double what everybody else does and says we need your extra money to make everybody even. Would anybody good want to work there?

I wouldn't.

But in sports, a big factor driving the popularity is competitive balance.

How many people watch Ohio State vs Indiana in football? Almost no one, because Indiana has been uncompetitive for years.

It is in Ohio State's best interest to be in a strong conference. OSU can't be #1 every year, so in those years it's a lot better to be able to tell your fans that it's ok because you played great competition. It might look like it costs them $10 million/year or more to share revenue with weaker schools, but in the long run they end up ahead because the whole conference is more competitive.

Texas is the most valuable CFB brand in the country. They should make head-and-shoulders more than even Florida and Ohio State. The only reason they don't is that they've driven away their highest-quality partners. Texas is that guy in the office who destroys relationships with his coworkers.

The same issue does not apply in real estate. But a similar effect does apply in other office settings - salespeople get paid salaries when they deal with relationship customers. If the salesperson changes occasionally, the customer wants to be guaranteed that they'll have a smooth transition and that the old salesperson will share his wisdom about the client with the new salesperson. In that setting, hell yes I'd fire a guy who acted like Texas.

Your argument isn't working. Look how lopsided the Big 10 is in football. In the Big 12, Texas, OU, Oklahoma St., Baylor, TCU and Kansas St. have won the title since 2009. Those same 6 have all been in the national title hunt in late November as was WVU in 2006 (in BE) and Texas Tech in 2008 and Kansas even in 2007. Only Iowa St. hasn't been. For the Big 10, the competitive schools are a pretty short list in the last 10 years.
05-13-2016 05:20 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
Frog, doesn't that argument cut the other way too, though? For example, Ohio St and Texas: they have all the money they could ever need to be nationally competitive. Anything they need, they get it. Just say the word, someone will pay for it.

Why do they need another $10million out of secondary media rights, then?? What good will it do them? So, why not let the other programs in the conference share in that wealth?


Bullet, you're suggesting that revenue generated by the BTN be shared outside the conference?

As far as being competitive, several programs have been competitive lately. Even Minnesota, a couple years ago. Iowa came from seemingly nowhere to win the West last year. And Northwestern was very competitive (though they ran out of gas in the bowl game). Wisconsin had a down year, but is a great program. And Nebraska will find its way again. That's most of the West. In the East, Ohio St, Michigan, Mich St are elite programs. Penn St is an elite program, but down a bit. That just leaves two new programs and then Indiana and Purdue. I don't think that's much different than the XII, in a given year.
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2016 05:25 PM by MplsBison.)
05-13-2016 05:22 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Big 12 expansion is dead for the time being
And BTW, Texas does make head and shoulders more than Ohio St. and Florida, even on TV revenue.
05-13-2016 05:22 PM
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