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Idaho's Consultant Report
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-03-2016 11:04 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 09:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 09:27 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  People here keep saying that, but apparently the WAC compliance guy says the NCAA has told him that's not the case. So what's the evidence the other way?

The actual text of the rules. But, I guess I take the WAC compliance officer's word over the black-letter text of the rules. This is the NCAA, rules only matter when it's convenient.

Here's the piece of the rulebook from the report:

NCAA Bylaw 20.4.2.1.1
Eligibility for Reclassification - Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference.

The WAC was a Football Bowl Subdivision conference (the Big West was not, if you're interpreting this literally).

Is there another rule that nullifies this?

That is the question. Some people behind the NCAA are saying this includes all conferences that would be grandfathered in with the split in 1977. 1A was renamed to FBS. Any conferences that were known as 1A since 1978 would be considered as FBS since there is a history and in NCAA record books, they are labeled as FBS.
05-03-2016 11:12 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-03-2016 09:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 09:27 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  People here keep saying that, but apparently the WAC compliance guy says the NCAA has told him that's not the case. So what's the evidence the other way?

The actual text of the rules. But, I guess I take the WAC compliance officer's word over the black-letter text of the rules. This is the NCAA, rules only matter when it's convenient.

And applying the rule would be convenient for the 10 FBS conferences who now make the rules.
05-03-2016 11:36 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
So the NCAA doesn't officially have to take action. That was the point I was wrong on.

See UCDAVIS, EWU, and Sac St as wanting to go FBS.

NAU maybe could use a field in Phoenix for home games.

Much of the membership can swap conferences.
05-03-2016 11:47 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-03-2016 11:47 PM)NoDak Wrote:  So the NCAA doesn't officially have to take action. That was the point I was wrong on.

See UCDAVIS, EWU, and Sac St as wanting to go FBS.

NAU maybe could use a field in Phoenix for home games.

Much of the membership can swap conferences.

That should extend to the Big West as well since it is historically considered an FBS conference.
05-03-2016 11:56 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-03-2016 11:56 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 11:47 PM)NoDak Wrote:  So the NCAA doesn't officially have to take action. That was the point I was wrong on.

See UCDAVIS, EWU, and Sac St as wanting to go FBS.

NAU maybe could use a field in Phoenix for home games.

Much of the membership can swap conferences.

That should extend to the Big West as well since it is historically considered an FBS conference.

The Big West was never an FBS conference, but a IA one.
05-04-2016 12:01 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
Under current reclassification rules, reclassification is very hard unless an FBS league has at least six existing FBS teams with some transitional. Reclassifying teams have to be able to count playing each other in the first year for this to work.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2016 12:42 AM by NoDak.)
05-04-2016 12:03 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 12:01 AM)NoDak Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 11:56 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 11:47 PM)NoDak Wrote:  So the NCAA doesn't officially have to take action. That was the point I was wrong on.

See UCDAVIS, EWU, and Sac St as wanting to go FBS.

NAU maybe could use a field in Phoenix for home games.

Much of the membership can swap conferences.

That should extend to the Big West as well since it is historically considered an FBS conference.

The Big West was never an FBS conference, but a IA one.

It's the same thing by any other name.
05-04-2016 12:09 AM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 12:03 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Under current reclassification rules, reclassification is very hard unless an FBS league has at least six existing FBS teams with some traditional. Reclassifying teams have to be able to count playing each other in the first year for this to work.

And right now all you got is NMSU and an Idaho who may or may not drop back to FCS with this potential development.


And no, the BW is not adding Cal State Bakersfield.
05-04-2016 12:10 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
The report says Cal Poly and South Dakota move. South Dakota pays total FCOA right now. Cal Poly could be the first move from the Big West in years.

UCDAVIS and Sac St won't pass up this opportunity to go to the WAC.

So the Big West really needs UCSD and Bake.
05-04-2016 12:35 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 12:10 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 12:03 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Under current reclassification rules, reclassification is very hard unless an FBS league has at least six existing FBS teams with some traditional. Reclassifying teams have to be able to count playing each other in the first year for this to work.

And right now all you got is NMSU and an Idaho who may or may not drop back to FCS with this potential development.


And no, the BW is not adding Cal State Bakersfield.


Idaho, New Mexico State and if Fullerton State and Long Beach State re-starts football. Plus Cal-Riverside as well? That is 5 who played in the Big West Conference If Cal-Irvine, Cal-San Diego and Northridge State adds football? You had 7 schools that played together at some point in time for certain sports. Cal-San Diego would be brought up as 8. Hawaii could move over from MWC with football as number 9. Cal-Davis and Cal-Poly could be 10 and 11. If some of them can't? You have Sacramento State, Northern Arizona and San Jose State as options. That would open 2 spots up for MWC 2 grab 2 better football programs like UTEP, Montana or North Dakota State. Even Portland State and Eastern Washington could be looked at as well. This could make the MWC much stronger in football that they could become a Power Conference by getting rid of 2 of their weaker teams, and gaining 2 that went to playoffs in the FCS.
05-04-2016 12:41 AM
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Post: #31
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 12:35 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The report says Cal Poly and South Dakota move. South Dakota pays total FCOA right now. Cal Poly could be the first move from the Big West in years.

UCDAVIS and Sac St won't pass up this opportunity to go to the WAC.

So the Big West really needs UCSD and Bake.

Unless I read the report wrong, it says UC Davis remains FCS and does not have basketball in this new conference. So even if they do leave along with Cal Poly. there's still no need for Bakersfield.

Grand Canyon, Utah Valley and Seattle will get in before Bakersfield does.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2016 01:08 AM by jdgaucho.)
05-04-2016 01:00 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
I also looking at this as well If you reclassified from FBS to FCS? You lost your FBS status. It does not say anything about the schools dropping football who were in the FBS. Is there a loophole for some of the former FBS schools? Lamar might be able to test it if they want to.
05-04-2016 01:12 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 01:00 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 12:35 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The report says Cal Poly and South Dakota move. South Dakota pays total FCOA right now. Cal Poly could be the first move from the Big West in years.

UCDAVIS and Sac St won't pass up this opportunity to go to the WAC.

So the Big West really needs UCSD and Bake.

Unless I read the report wrong, it says UC Davis remains FCS and does not have basketball in this new conference. So even if they do leave along with Cal Poly. there's still no need for Bakersfield.

Grand Canyon, Utah Valley and Seattle will get in before Bakersfield does.

The report is much about getting schools fans worked up for being passed over for FBS.

NDSU and SDSU will not get a full MVC invite as the report says is possible, and NDSU wailing and whining can be heard everywhere like sirens if UND goes FBS before them.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2016 01:18 AM by NoDak.)
05-04-2016 01:18 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-03-2016 11:04 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 09:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 09:27 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  People here keep saying that, but apparently the WAC compliance guy says the NCAA has told him that's not the case. So what's the evidence the other way?

The actual text of the rules. But, I guess I take the WAC compliance officer's word over the black-letter text of the rules. This is the NCAA, rules only matter when it's convenient.

Here's the piece of the rulebook from the report:

NCAA Bylaw 20.4.2.1.1
Eligibility for Reclassification - Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference.

The WAC was a Football Bowl Subdivision conference (the Big West was not, if you're interpreting this literally).

Is there another rule that nullifies this?

Not directly. However the same section that defines an FBS conference as a conference comprised of at least eight full FBS members (20.02.6) also contains this subsection:

20.02.6.2 Grace Period. A conference shall continue to be considered a Football Bowl Subdivision conference for two years following the date when it fails to satisfy the eight full Football Bowl Subdivision member requirement due to one or more of its member’s failure to comply with the bowl subdivision membership requirements.

So two years after the WAC stopped having eight full FBS members, it stopped being an FBS conference.

However, under the reclassification rule you quote above, the WAC doesn't have to be an FBS conference to promote FCS schools that join it to FBS status. It only has to be "a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference" which it obviously is.

Moreover, the definition of an FBS conference only says that it has to have eight full FBS members, not that it has to have had eight full FBS members historically with no break longer than two years. Put another way, there's nothing that explicitly says that a former FBS conference can't return to being an FBS conference once it returns to having eight full FBS members, regardless of whether the Grace Period has come and gone.

So I think it's plausible that if the WAC could invite a combination of FBS schools as full members and FCS schools that are willing to move up to FBS as full members that totals eight or more, the WAC could return to being an FBS conference, once the FCS move-up members completed their transition to FBS.

However there are obstacles related to scheduling requirements. If the WAC wanted to resume sponsoring football, the general rule on Division I conference football scheduling (section 20.02.5.3(b)), which applies for both FCS and FBS conferences, would require the WAC to sponsor a minimum of five regular-season conference games per year. Moreover, the FBS scheduling rule (section 20.9.9.2) would require any school that joined the WAC to move up from FCS to FBS to play at least five regular-season home games against FBS opponents, of which no more than one could be at a neutral site. Taken together, those rules effectively prevent the WAC from reinstating itself as an FBS conference by just restarting football with Idaho, NMSU and six FCS move-ups and waiting the four years for the FCS move-ups to complete their transition to FBS. Instead the process would have to be done in stages over a considerably longer period, with the WAC inviting FCS move-ups in at least two stages.

Here's why the quick fix won't work. If the WAC only had Idaho and NMSU as current FBS members and immediately added six FCS move-ups with the goal of quickly returning to full FBS conference status, then for the FCS move-ups, their seven-game conference schedule would include only one home game against an FBS opponent. That would leave them needing three more FBS home games and another at a neutral site to meet the FBS schedule requirement, with only five out of conference games to do it. No FCS school would be able to pull that off.

However if the WAC had Idaho and NMSU as current FBS members and added only four FCS move-ups -- the minimum to sponsor a five-game regular season -- then for the FCS move-ups, they would get their one home conference game against an FBS opponent and be left with seven out of conference games to get the other three home FBS contests and a neutral site FBS game. By scheduling smart they would be able to do that, and in four years they would attain full FBS status. At that point, with six full FBS members, the WAC could invite two more FCS move ups and expand its schedule to seven conference games. The FCS move ups would each get three or four home conference games against FBS opponents, leaving them needing only one or two home out of conference FBS games which would be doable. Four more years would go by and the WAC would be back to having eight full FBS members and would once again qualify as an FBS conference.

Sorry for the long post but that's my take on the WAC's potential route back to being an FBS football conference. It would be a long road and would require a lot of commitment, planning and patience by at least six western FCS schools. But it appears the road is there.

One last thought: Given the scheduling obstacles explained above, the WAC would need a minimum of two current FBS members to "seed" its rebirth as an FBS conference. NMSU could not do it alone and there's no other western FBS independent that would have an interest in reviving WAC FBS football. So Idaho's decision to drop down to FCS, if it follows through, could be viewed as the true final death blow to WAC FBS football even though Idaho left the conference years ago.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2016 02:12 AM by HawaiiMongoose.)
05-04-2016 01:50 AM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
One other interesting implication of the rules as I read them, but hadn't thought about before now: if an FCS school is willing to move up to FBS and play as an FBS independent rather than as a member of an FBS conference, it can do so by joining the WAC.

If the gap between what FBS and FCS schools earn from P5 body-bag games continues to grow, maybe a few western FCS schools with no other move-up options and a hunger for cash will develop an interest in this option.
05-04-2016 02:26 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
Wichita St might be a future WAC football affiliate.

Could even see NMSU wanting Lamar and Sam Houston.

Stony Brook, JMU, Delaware, and Albany might make a good eastern affiliate division.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2016 02:45 AM by NoDak.)
05-04-2016 02:38 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 02:38 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Wichita St might be a WAC football affiliate.

It's hard to imagine Wichita State being willing to put their basketball program in such a poor hoops conference. But if the Shockers wanted football badly enough, and wanted a path to FBS even if it meant playing as an independent, it could happen.

Another thought: Now I understand why UTRGV is studying starting football with the goal of moving straight up through FCS and directly on to FBS football, like UTSA. If my interpretation of the rules is correct, the Vaqueros don't need to land a Sun Belt or CUSA invitation to do it. They could do it as a WAC school, again if they're willing to play as an FBS independent.
05-04-2016 02:48 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
(05-04-2016 02:48 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 02:38 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Wichita St might be a WAC football affiliate.

It's hard to imagine Wichita State being willing to put their basketball program in such a poor hoops conference. But if the Shockers wanted football badly enough, and wanted a path to FBS even if it meant playing as an independent, it could happen.

Another thought: Now I understand why UTRGV is studying starting football with the goal of moving straight up through FCS and directly on to FBS football, like UTSA. If my interpretation of the rules is correct, the Vaqueros don't need to land a Sun Belt or CUSA invitation to do it. They could do it as a WAC school, again if they're willing to play as an FBS independent.

They should start FCS in 2017 then start transition in 2018.
If Idaho would stay FBS they could play H&H with NMSU and Idaho needing two true FBS home games for the two year transition period.
Get three more to join and your almost there.
Or do they believe they can get a waiver so there conference games count as FBS right away.Even if all or almost all the schools are transitioning. Eight game conference schedule if FBS covers the four true FBS home game rule.

One other thought is any other conference eligible?
The WAC is the only former FBS conference or is 1A and 1AA just as good meaning MVC and Big West.
05-04-2016 05:40 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
I have also heard about potential for schools to play H&H in football in a single season.

So Idaho plays at NMSU early in the season, NMSU plays at Idaho later. Do this with enough schools and you have an easier time scheduling, and build up rivalries pretty quick.

You can really only do this as an independent.

(Not saying it is a great idea, just saying desperate times call for desperate measures and all that).
05-04-2016 11:15 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Idaho's Consultant Report
Utah Valley and Grand Canyon could follow the suit with UTRGV as well. You have 5. They could try and get SanJose State to rejoin them. That would be 6. Long Beach State never got full reclassification. They could be number 7. As it is, they are still considered FBS even if they never went to FCS. Lamar was a former SBC member when they dropped football, but was Independent in football. They could be number 8. Plus, there was report that Seattle could add football. That would be 9.
05-04-2016 11:23 AM
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