Academic integrity upheld?

I'm glad the B1G didn't make this easy. I have to wonder, though, if there were some upset PAC schools who weren't nice to ASU or the Big Ten given how the B1G-PAC arrangement fell through. I kind of saw this possible affiliation opening up some doors, not thinking it might pick at the scab of the wound, too.

Minnesota's going to want to stay up in the north and midwest, but I wonder if the conference would push east? RPI?

(04-30-2016 08:27 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Minnesota's going to want to stay up in the north and midwest, but I wonder if the conference would push east? RPI?

https://twitter.com/LetsPlay_Hockey/stat...9260873728
Let's Play Hockey
‏@LetsPlay_Hockey
Several schools have been mentioned to become the 8th @B1GHockey team now that ND has joined the league. Among them: ASU, Miami, UConn, UNO

ASU is now off the list.

Given new guidelines, UNO doesn't have the academics and UConn not geographically suitable.

Which leaves the Big Ten inviting Miami or holding at 7 for now. NCHC is thr better conference so not sure if Miami would accept but Michigan, Michigan St, and Notre Dame back on our schedule would be great.

I expect the Big Ten holding at 7 and the NCHC inviting Bowling Green

.

7 doesn't work, got to think Miami would gladly take an big 10 invite. Could happen, makes for a nice bus league, but who knows. I think its crazy the big 10 wouldn't take North Dakota because of academic standing. Only reason not to take them would be if some eastern school's, BU, Uconn or heck some ivy league school's (harvard) would accept spot 8.

Big ten hockey conference totally blows especially if they are looking at Miami over north Dakota. im starting to understand why fans are boycotting and recruits are going elsewhere. I'm to the point I don't know if I will go to another big 10 hockey game plenty of other teams in state to go watch.

The gophers coach Lucia wouldn't schedule us for a few years because he said the series is too heated. So Minnie has itself to blame for the fans becoming disinterested.

In the meantime, even though maybe eight players will sign NHL contracts following our championship, we could still have a first line that will all be first round draft choices next year. That is unheard in college hockey and is reminiscent of recent Kentucky basketball teams.

UND to the a Big Ten for hockey would make the conference tournament hopping rather than the morgue it is now. None of the other teams would do that, not even Notre Dame.

(04-30-2016 10:37 AM)NoDak Wrote:  UND to the a Big Ten for hockey would make the conference tournament hopping rather than the morgue it is now. None of the other teams would do that, not even Notre Dame.

Exactly. The UND and Minnesota fans would swarm it when held out that way. With a more exciting 8 team tournament when it gets held in say Michigan I'd expect more local interest too. Plus I'm certain the Gophers and UND fans would travel there too.

The feeling over at GopherHole.com is mixed about adding North Dakota. Some want to do it, some want to add other schools before adding North Dakota(read: MN schools), some feel the B1G needs to improve before adding anyone else. So it isn't cut and dry as some people on here think it is. (Yes NoDak, I'm looking at you, but I do agree that the Gophers-Fighting Hawks rivalry should resume.)

(04-30-2016 12:41 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  The feeling over at GopherHole.com is mixed about adding North Dakota. Some want to do it, some want to add other schools before adding North Dakota(read: MN schools), some feel the B1G needs to improve before adding anyone else. So it isn't cut and dry as some people on here think it is. (Yes NoDak, I'm looking at you, but I do agree that the Gophers-Fighting Hawks rivalry should resume.)

I'd personally be shocked if UND received a B1G hockey bid, but Fox Sports North is rumored to pick up our whole sports package that could be worth much more than we get from the NCHC/CBS Sports Network and a regional Dakota cable network. There is a hole in FSNorth's programming now without much gopher stuff. FOR UND to have a B1G hockey schedule it would be worth more so Fox corporate could even see fit to lean on the B1G to add us.

A good part of our fanbase and near majority of our students are Minnesota residents, so it's not like we're a far distant relation.

There is at least some sentiment among Bowling Green fans against the NCHC. The travel would be more expensive (the Alaska schools pay part of the cost of visits up there), and it is doubtful Bowling Green would earn that investment back based on the new mix of teams we would be hosting at the BGSU Ice Arena.

As one fan puts it: "Sure, BG should be in a league with Miami and Western [Michigan], just not that league."

I think academics are played up a little too much with this. They matter, but are not a be all, end all.

(04-30-2016 07:00 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I think academics are played up a little too much with this. They matter, but are not a be all, end all.

They aren't the be-all and end-all. While with the Big Ten they can easily be a disqualifier, they are not a qualifier all on their own.

And the Big Ten having affiliates is itself still largely unexplored territory. A research presence and long time blue-blood in the sport like John Hopkins certainly didn't test any boundaries, and Notre Dame itself, while not being the same kind of flagship research University, has been considered by many observers to be "good enough" when combined with their established brand.

We don't really know whether affiliate standing can go as far down academically as ASU, since its geography meant it was not an automatic invite with the exception of its academics.

(05-01-2016 10:53 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-30-2016 07:00 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I think academics are played up a little too much with this. They matter, but are not a be all, end all.

They aren't the be-all and end-all. While with the Big Ten they can easily be a disqualifier, they are not a qualifier all on their own.

And the Big Ten having affiliates is itself still largely unexplored territory. A research presence and long time blue-blood in the sport like John Hopkins certainly didn't test any boundaries, and Notre Dame itself, while not being the same kind of flagship research University, has been considered by many observers to be "good enough" when combined with their established brand.

We don't really know whether affiliate standing can go as far down academically as ASU, since its geography meant it was not an automatic invite with the exception of its academics.

I agree with you, although I would say that this emphasizes the flip side: this thread is actually not playing up academics enough when it comes to *disqualifying* schools for the Big Ten. I've seen several suggestions about the Big Ten adding schools like North Dakota and Minnesota-Duluth, which is simply completely ignoring the fact that they're getting disqualified from the get go on the basis of academics. This is no different than the Big Ten's viewpoint toward schools for football or basketball. Just because this is "only hockey" doesn't make the academics any less important. Indeed, the only two Big Ten affiliate members aren't just merely good in terms of academics, but legitimately in the "elite of the elite" class.

At the same time, I see a common issue in this thread in simultaneously playing up supposed on-the-ice prowess way too much. Once again, just as we saw in football conference realignment, the actual competitive ability of a conference means very little when it comes to realignment power. Just because this is "only hockey" doesn't mean that we have the exact same parameters of realignment being dominated by off-the-ice prestige and branding here (albeit on a smaller scale). On that front, the Big Ten could be judged to be the worst on-the-ice conference in the sport and it would still have complete, 100% poaching power over EVERY member of the NCHC without question. The only reason why Arizona State isn't in the Big Ten is that the Big Ten ultimately decided to not invite them (or else ASU would have taken the invite in a heartbeat). North Dakota, Miami and everyone else in the NCHC would do the same, whether they want to admit it or not. I do think that the core of the Hockey East (e.g. BC and BU) and the Ivy League schools would turn down Big Ten invites, but no one else.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that the Big Ten ultimately didn't add ASU. I don't think many people quite understand just how much the Phoenix market specifically has such a massive concentration of Big Ten alums (as much as any market in the country that is outside of the Big Ten footprint). That's why discussions got so far in the first place despite the on-paper geographic disconnect. With ASU off-the-board, I see Miami and Denver are the only schools that really qualify for the Big Ten from an academic perspective from the NCHC, and I don't think the B1G would move on any of them. I'm sure that the Big Ten would be interested in BU and/or BC if they'd be willing to move, but those are also two schools that would legitimately resist overtures from the Big Ten.

I think academics become the patsy for the internal politics. It's easier to turn schools down on that front than on others. But, I think taking ASU would have put a lot of pressure on the Big Ten to explain how they can turn down an unknown number of schools who've approached them over the years on the basis of academic fit, to take ASU, who is noticeably unlike any school, full member or affiliate, in the conference.

It isn't worth it at this time. Maybe if another PAC school, one who academically matches the B1G, sponsors the sport, they can combo them and ASU for affiliate membership, but ASU alone is just too risky. It always looked like a cash grab, and any number of rags would have run with such a story.

(05-01-2016 10:14 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I think academics become the patsy for the internal politics. It's easier to turn schools down on that front than on others. But, I think taking ASU would have put a lot of pressure on the Big Ten to explain how they can turn down an unknown number of schools who've approached them over the years on the basis of academic fit, to take ASU, who is noticeably unlike any school, full member or affiliate, in the conference.

It isn't worth it at this time. Maybe if another PAC school, one who academically matches the B1G, sponsors the sport, they can combo them and ASU for affiliate membership, but ASU alone is just too risky. It always looked like a cash grab, and any number of rags would have run with such a story.

I really don't think the academics were the issue with ASU. While ASU has a legendary party school rep for undergrad, it's a legitimately massive research university with a lot of strong grad programs. Geography and the sheer newness of the program, on the other hand, were much more likely to be the problems. Still, the fact that ASU and the Big Ten discussed this for over the year (and the Big Ten even *admitted* talking to them on-the-record, which NEVER happens and why many, including me, were so sure that they were eventually getting invited) is quite instructive. Ultimately, the places where Big Ten alums actually *live* as opposed to where they're *from* is going to be a big consideration in the future (as I can't emphasize enough that Arizona is very high on the list of where Big Ten alums actually live).

As a direct cash grab, it is quite small potatoes. But over the longer term and on average, engagement with alumni does tend to translate into bequests.

But inviting ASU would set a precedent, "affiliate status is under looser rules than all-sports membership". Given institutional inertia, how long a time the Big Ten was a conference with no affiliates, and how recently that changed, it would not be surprising if there was internal resistance to setting that precedent.

I don't see any reason to expect that the Big Ten would invite MiamiU (my alma mater) as a member.

I also think that if another B1G full member is close to starting hockey - especially if it's Nebraska or Iowa - that may have come into play as well. The B1G doesn't want to be seen as hockey's equivalent of the Sun Belt, a conference with a large number of newer (or in the Sun Belt's case, new to FBS) programs.

(05-01-2016 10:41 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I also think that if another B1G full member is close to starting hockey - especially if it's Nebraska or Iowa - that may have come into play as well. The B1G doesn't want to be seen as hockey's equivalent of the Sun Belt, a conference with a large number of newer (or in the Sun Belt's case, new to FBS) programs.

And if it's likely to only be one for a while ... which would not be surprising, given the facilities costs and program costs of starting up hockey at the Div1 level ... "evening up" to 8 right now would just put Big Ten hockey at an uneven 9 in the future. And an uneven 9 is more cumbersome to work with than an uneven 7.

Hockey fans are much more fanatical than basketball ones, as they often travel to away games via auto. The distances in leagues now reduce road team attendance much more than in CCHA and WCHA days. UND is one of the few teams from those former leagues that haven't had reduced attendance (helps that we have a long wait list on season tickets). PenN State is another that hasn't been hurt for obvious reasons.

Miami, W Mich, Notre Dame, and all the Minnesota schools have felt the effect because of fewer close road teams.