RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
I always found it ironic that Yamamoto, who lead the raid on Pearl Harbor, knew that the attack was going to bring the destruction of Japan. But honor prevailed.
And Rommel also knew that Germany would suffer defeat if it prosecuted the war.
The best military men of both nation's couldn't stop the avalanche.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 12:51 PM)usmbacker Wrote:
Dropping the bomb saved hundreds of thousands of American lives. Period, end of sentence. How about Obama bringing up the horrific way the Japanese slaughtered the millions of Chinese citizens and how they tortured and murdered American prisoners. They deserved the bomb.
I'd not call it "simple" but that is accurate. It *probably* save many Japanese lives as well. And we keep ignoring the fact Japan started the war, refused to surrender, and were themselves taking massive civilian casualities as we got closer to the main islands.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 01:39 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: Most people understand the 1st bomb. However, the 2nd bomb three days after? I don't think you can justify it that fast? Set it off over a harbor or something. Good on Obama in my eyes.
1 - We only had *two* bombs. If we waste one on a show we have spent our load
2 - 3 Days was *plenty* of time at that stage of the war. Any sensible government would have surrendered long before the first was dropped
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 02:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: I would have gave it at least two weeks.
You do realize there was actually a war going on right? As many people died taking Okinawa than died at Nagasaki, so how many more Okinawa's should have have perpetrated before ending the war?
04-10-2016 04:27 PM
Machiavelli
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RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 04:38 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: Well excuse me for posting an opinion on a political message board.
What's the problem Mach... Someone posted an opinion and you disagreed and posted your own... I disagreed and posted my opinion of why you were wrong.
Can you post anything to refute what I said? Or what else has been pointed out on this thread?
More people died in the battle for Okinawa than Nagasaki.
More people died in conventional bombing of Tokyo than Nagasaki.
Japan was given ample time to surrender and were unwilling.
We did not have a sufficient stock pile of nukes for "warning shots"
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
Scholars have debated this for decades. Some interesting quotes:
The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
— Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, [68]
The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
— Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950, [78]
The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
— Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945, [79]
The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment… It was a mistake to ever drop it… [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…
— Fleet Admiral William Halsey, Jr., 1964, [79]
its controversial boys no matter how you slice it.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
One thing is not controversial, and that is the fact the Japanese Army was largely in tact and had been concentrated on the home islands for several years in preparation for the invasion.
By 1945 we had only defeated the Imperial Navy and its various components.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 08:42 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: Scholars have debated this for decades. Some interesting quotes:
The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
— Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, [68]
The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
— Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950, [78]
The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
— Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945, [79]
The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment… It was a mistake to ever drop it… [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…
— Fleet Admiral William Halsey, Jr., 1964, [79]
its controversial boys no matter how you slice it.
So you just posted about being butthurt about the war ending 3 days after the first bomb fell, and we dropped a second but didnt wait long enough, yet now you are quoting people who say that the bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war.
Its not controversial....its old news. Get over it. We were attacked, we kicked their ass.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 08:58 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:
(04-10-2016 08:42 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: Scholars have debated this for decades. Some interesting quotes:
The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
— Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, [68]
The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
— Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950, [78]
The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
— Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945, [79]
The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment… It was a mistake to ever drop it… [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…
— Fleet Admiral William Halsey, Jr., 1964, [79]
its controversial boys no matter how you slice it.
So you just posted about being butthurt about the war ending 3 days after the first bomb fell, and we dropped a second but didnt wait long enough, yet now you are quoting people who say that the bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war.
Its not controversial....its old news. Get over it. We were attacked, we kicked their ass.
Yes, I'm sure a baby steps approach much like our current wars would've been so much better....for Mach. Because we all know how well those turned out. We didn't care about hearts and minds in WWII, and we should learn that lesson from history and apply it to today.
Damn, if only we had Obama back then to strike a "deal" with Japan.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2016 09:03 PM by Pyrizzo.)
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 09:03 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:
(04-10-2016 08:58 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:
(04-10-2016 08:42 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: Scholars have debated this for decades. Some interesting quotes:
The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
— Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, [68]
The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
— Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950, [78]
The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
— Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945, [79]
The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment… It was a mistake to ever drop it… [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…
— Fleet Admiral William Halsey, Jr., 1964, [79]
its controversial boys no matter how you slice it.
So you just posted about being butthurt about the war ending 3 days after the first bomb fell, and we dropped a second but didnt wait long enough, yet now you are quoting people who say that the bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war.
Its not controversial....its old news. Get over it. We were attacked, we kicked their ass.
Yes, I'm sure a baby steps approach much like our current wars would've been so much better....for Mach. Because we all know how well those turned out. We didn't care about hearts and minds in WWII, and we should learn that lesson from history and apply it to today.
Damn, if only we had Obama back then to strike a "deal" with Japan.
With the way Obama "negotiates" Hawaii, Alaska, and California would be the 48th, 49th, and 50th Japanese prefectures.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 08:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: One thing is not controversial, and that is the fact the Japanese Army was largely in tact and had been concentrated on the home islands for several years in preparation for the invasion.
By 1945 we had only defeated the Imperial Navy and its various components.
This fact is why I ultimately come on the side of dropping the bomb or, at least, understanding the reasoning behind it. An invasion would have been nasty. The combined number of American and Japanese (both military and civilian) casualties would have been ridiculous.
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
(04-10-2016 08:42 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace.
Sued for peace does not surrender. Hell there was a peace armistice after Korea... How's that working out in the long term.
There was also the question of who they would surrender to? Do we let them linger long enough to that the Soviets get a foothold in Japan. How does north and South Japan sound in the cold war.
Quote:The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
You're right. Japan was beaten but the war could have dragged on for months if not longer before Japan surrendered unconditionally and in that time way more than 50,000 people would have died.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2016 09:34 PM by Bull_In_Exile.)
RE: More Obama Apology Tour, Asian Edition: Obama Debates Going To Hiroshima
Sad that given the millions killed in WWII, we have a person on this board feeling sorry for the Japanese who not only started the war, but ruthlessly tortured and murdered captured American soldiers. Pretty f'n pathetic.
04-10-2016 09:43 PM
Machiavelli
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