Tier 1

[In no order]

Duke, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA

Tier 2

Arizona, UConn, Louisville, Michigan State, Ohio State, Syracuse, Villanova, Michigan (no sanctions were considered)

Tier 3

Arkansas, Cincinnati, Florida, Georgetown, Illinois, Marquette, NC State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Utah

Tier 4

Houston, Maryland, Memphis (no sanctions were considered), Purdue, San Francisco, St. John's, Temple, Virginia, Wisconsin, UNLV

Honorable Mention

BYU, Butler, Gonzaga, CCNY (the only team to win both the NIT and NCAAT in the same year) Iowa, Kansas State, LSU, Oregon State, Penn., Princeton, St. Joe's, Texas, West Vriginia, Western Ky., Wichita State, Xavier

I am by no means a Florida fan or an SEC homer in the least. Should Florida be ranked higher?

Tier 4 is a mess. Here are the teams and what there tournament records look like:

Houston Cougars
Tournament Appearances: 19
Final Fours: 5
Championships: 0
Win-Loss: 26-24

Maryland Terrapins
Tournament Appearances: 26
Final Fours: 2
Championships: 1 (2002)
Win-Loss: 41-25

Memphis
Tournament Appearances: 26
Final Fours: 3
Championships: 0
Win-Loss: 34-26

Purdue Boilermakers
Tournament Appearances: 28
Final Fours: 2
Championships: 0
Win-Loss: 35-28

St. John's Red Storm
Tournament Appearances: 29
Final Fours: 2
Championships: 0
Win-Loss: 27-31

Temple Owls
Tournament Appearances: 32
Final Fours: 2
Championships: 0
Win-Loss: 33-32

Virginia Cavaliers
Tournament Appearances: 20
Final Fours: 2
Championships: 0
Win-Loss: 28-20

Wisconsin Badgers
Tournament Appearances: 22
Final Fours: 4
Championships: 1 (1941)
Win-Loss: 36-21

UNLV Rebels
Tournament Appearances: 20
Final Fours: 4
Championships: 1 (1990)
Win-Loss: 33-19

So gathering from your tiers you actually think that X number of FF appearances = National Title.

(04-07-2016 07:56 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  I am by no means a Florida fan or an SEC homer in the least. Should Florida be ranked higher?

Look at Florida's accomplishments prior to 1994. They've come a long way in a short time but I still rate them not as high as others on the list. And overall, they still have some improvement to get into the next tier. Houston has as many Sweet 16 appearances, fewer if you include vacations (which I didn't because short of the most blatant, obvious cheating, what's done is done). Heck, Houston has as many Tournament appearances and more if you include vacations. Yet I rated Florida in a higher tier than my Coogs.

(04-07-2016 08:00 PM)TheBasketBallOpinion Wrote:  So gathering from your tiers you actually think that X number of FF appearances = National Title.

No and there is a certain margin of error involved. Anyone from any tier can realistically be placed in the tier above or below it. I put OU and Notre Dame likely higher than they should have been just based on the sheer amount of NCAA Tournament appearances (OU also has 5 Final Fours).

(04-07-2016 08:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 07:56 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  I am by no means a Florida fan or an SEC homer in the least. Should Florida be ranked higher?

Look at Florida's accomplishments prior to 1994. They've come a long way in a short time but I still rate them not as high as others on the list. And overall, they still have some improvement to get into the next tier. Houston has as many Sweet 16 appearances, more if you include vacations (which I didn't because short of the most blatant, obvious cheating, what's done is done). Heck, Houston has as many Tournament appearances and more if you include vacations. Yet I rated Florida in a higher tier than my Coogs.

(04-07-2016 08:00 PM)TheBasketBallOpinion Wrote:  So gathering from your tiers you actually think that X number of FF appearances = National Title.

No and there is a certain margin of error involved. Anyone from any tier can realistically be placed in the tier above or below it. I put OU and Notre Dame likely higher than they should have been just based on the sheer amount of NCAA Tournament appearances (OU also has 5 Final Fours).

thats the problem tho. Tier 4 would be massive with the amount of programs that have had multiple F4 runs haha.

Also, you look at Maryland, who looks great on the surface until you realize they've only been to the Elite 8 4 times, including in both of their Final Four seasons back-to-back years. The other two were way back in the 70's. This year was their first Sweet 16 appearance in 13 years.

It's tough, the Tournament is a crapshoot and some teams had great seasons that the Tournament, the format at the time or the era (like the NIT being more highly regarded) don't show but I rewarded consistency as much as accomplishment.

(04-07-2016 08:30 PM)TheBasketBallOpinion Wrote:  thats the problem tho. Tier 4 would be massive with the amount of programs that have had multiple F4 runs haha.

I think you see a sizable dropoff from Tier 4 and the HM's. Only a few of the HM's could fairly be listed with Tier 4. Some of their biggest accomplishments, such as K-State and Iowa, happened so long ago that you question how good it was because the NIT was an equal tournament at the time.

Arkansas has really fallen off.

No more than Houston. Imagine if the SWC was still active, there'd be no great programs except maybe Texas, though A&M showed some life this year, UNI choke or not.

Call me a homer but should at least be on the same level as Ohio State, if not higher.

It's debatable and it's just as debatable that OSU should be lower. I said there's some fluidity and with rare exception, it can always be argued that teams directly above or below each other should be in the same tier, though I think the top is not really up for debate except maybe a team like Louisville joining the top group (plus Indiana has fallen some but 5 titles is 5 titles, with a Final Four in every full decade except the 60's).

I hate to be the one to say this but UConn has as many championships as some programs in your tier one. I know they fall short for final fours and longevity but 4 championships makes up for it. They usually make the best of their final four opportunities.

C2 what factors did you consider?

Replace Indiana with Louisville.

(04-07-2016 07:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tier 1

[In no order]

Duke, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA

Tier 2

Arizona, UConn, Louisville, Michigan State, Ohio State, Syracuse, Villanova, Michigan (no sanctions were considered)

Tier 3

Arkansas, Cincinnati, Florida, Georgetown, Illinois, Marquette, NC State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Utah

Tier 4

Houston, Maryland, Memphis (no sanctions were considered), Purdue, San Francisco, St. John's, Temple, Virginia, Wisconsin, UNLV

Honorable Mention

BYU, Butler, Gonzaga, CCNY (the only team to win both the NIT and NCAAT in the same year) Iowa, Kansas State, LSU, Oregon State, Penn., Princeton, St. Joe's, Texas, West Vriginia, Western Ky., Wichita State, Xavier

(04-07-2016 11:04 PM)Villecard Wrote:  Replace Indiana with Louisville.

(04-07-2016 07:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tier 1

[In no order]

Duke, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA

Tier 2

Arizona, UConn, Louisville, Michigan State, Ohio State, Syracuse, Villanova, Michigan (no sanctions were considered)

Tier 3

Arkansas, Cincinnati, Florida, Georgetown, Illinois, Marquette, NC State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Utah

Tier 4

Houston, Maryland, Memphis (no sanctions were considered), Purdue, San Francisco, St. John's, Temple, Virginia, Wisconsin, UNLV

Honorable Mention

BYU, Butler, Gonzaga, CCNY (the only team to win both the NIT and NCAAT in the same year) Iowa, Kansas State, LSU, Oregon State, Penn., Princeton, St. Joe's, Texas, West Vriginia, Western Ky., Wichita State, Xavier

IU has more titles over more decades and is 6th in weeks ranked #1 (pretty sure UCLA, UK, UNC, Duke and KU are the top 5). They've been in a slump but appear to be back.

(04-07-2016 10:16 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  I hate to be the one to say this but UConn has as many championships as some programs in your tier one. I know they fall short for final fours and longevity but 4 championships makes up for it. They usually make the best of their final four opportunities.

Which only goes to show how much of a crapshoot it is. Only 2 of UConn's titlist were legitimately the best team or went through the best team, the others just won all of their games and survived the crapshoot. One was a 7-seed. That Duke team they beat in 1999 was better than every other UConn team that won it all and possibly was the best Duke team ever (yes, better than '92 and '01). So there has to be other factors to even it out, otherwise, why not just name every team that's ever won a title into the tiers? Because Loyola Chicago and Holy Cross are nowhere near as historically good as Houston and Illinois to name a couple.

(04-07-2016 10:29 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  C2 what factors did you consider?

In short, consistency + achievement.

A longer explanation would include:

-National titles
-Final Fours
-Both of the above in numerous eras
-Deep penetrations in the NCAA Tournament
-Overall NCAAT appearances
-Respect commanded by name
-Nationally relevant seasons
-NIT-era prominence (I'll admit I'm a novice at that)
-Penalizing or keeping in perspective the nature of the NIT and NCAA's in the early years.

*As a side note, I try not to be too overwhelmed by Tournament success, which is why George Mason, VCU and numerous teams that even won the whole thing were omitted entirely.

(04-07-2016 07:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tier 1

[In no order]

Duke, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA

Tier 2

Arizona, UConn, Louisville, Michigan State, Ohio State, Syracuse, Villanova, Michigan (no sanctions were considered)

Tier 3

Arkansas, Cincinnati, Florida, Georgetown, Illinois, Marquette, NC State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Utah

Tier 4

Houston, Maryland, Memphis (no sanctions were considered), Purdue, San Francisco, St. John's, Temple, Virginia, Wisconsin, UNLV

Honorable Mention

BYU, Butler, Gonzaga, CCNY (the only team to win both the NIT and NCAAT in the same year) Iowa, Kansas State, LSU, Oregon State, Penn., Princeton, St. Joe's, Texas, West Vriginia, Western Ky., Wichita State, Xavier

It's time for UCLA to be off the Tier 1 list. Everyone else on Tier 1 is fine. Indiana needs to do something in the next 6-8 years to remain @ Tier 1. Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas and Duke are solid 14kt gold.

I think the Tier 2's look fine, and that includes my beloved Cardinals.

UConn and Louisville should probably be in tier 1.5. I think those programs have separated themselves from the rest of Tier 2, but aren't quite in the same breath as Duke, Indiana, KU, UK, UNC, and UCLA.

(04-07-2016 07:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tier 1

[In no order]
Duke, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA

In no order? It's obviously either UCLA or Kentucky at #1. Who you have there depends on whether you think overall titles trumps all else (UCLA) or if you think other things can overcome a 3-title difference (UK).

I don't, so I have UCLA at #1. But there is no doubt that both are ahead of UNC, Duke, Indiana, and Kansas.

(04-07-2016 11:04 PM)Villecard Wrote:  Replace Indiana with Louisville.

Replace a program with 5 titles with one with 3?