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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #161
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.

But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.
04-06-2016 06:56 AM
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Post: #162
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 05:46 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:03 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 01:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 01:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Like hell it doesn't.
What details would you want?
What I mean is, spending a little extra on a suburban school already flush with cash would probably have less effect than spending it on an inner-city school that doesn't have much money at all.

Fair enough. But if you look at the order of magnitude of the increases, that is far from enough to be driving it. I'll try to find some of the numbers I've seen, but they are quite frankly astounding.

That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.

When the HS band has to beg for money and the Football team is flushed with cash..it should tell you what our priorities are now.

My high schools athletic teams have a booster club which pays for extra stuff, and I think the band does too.

Also, most football teams at least bring in some money while bands don't.
04-06-2016 06:58 AM
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Post: #163
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 06:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.

But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.

THIS THRICE!
04-06-2016 07:07 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #164
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 07:07 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 06:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.
But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.
THIS THRICE!

1. Spend money in the classroom, not in the administration building.
2. Implement a tracking system, probably starting around the transition from junior high to high school, which absolutely MUST be accompanied by vastly improved vocational education.
3. Put teachers back in charge in classrooms.
4. Measure and track everybody--students, teachers, administrators, parents--and hold each of them accountable. Have ONE test that counts, not the myriad of testing that we now have (one reason why we spend so much on administration).
5. Vouchers. If we go to something more like the German system, where the different tracks effectively go to different schools, this would tie in with point 1 above.

My proposal to teachers would be this: We're going to pay you more, a lot more, and give you more authority in your classroom, and in return we are going to hold you accountable and implement procedures to ensure that accountability.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 08:07 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-06-2016 08:04 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #165
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-05-2016 02:21 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  In a realist's mind, companies exist to make profit and union's exist to protect employees from exploitation in the company's pursuit of profit. The global economy and ability to find worker's who aren't unionized who will work for tiny wages has eroded the bargaining power of unions and made it much harder for low skilled laborers to make a living at the level they once were able to. You want a major reason Trump and Bernie do so well these days...it's income concentration in the top 1% and that inability for low skilled labor to make the kind of living. We've never found a modern economic answer to bringing up the middle class since unions have faded from society.

I support labor--unionized or not--in its role of protecting employees from exploitation. But modern unions do very little of that, and government employee unions do virtually none. Where I have problems with unions is that they seem to exist far too much to exercise political clout that inures to the power and benefit of the union leadership instead of the workers. I like the German model, where workers elect a certain number of members to the corporate board of directors. This means that the board effectively represents three classes of stakeholders--management, investors, and labor. I think this is the proper level at which the interests of labor should be recognized. Who doesn't like this model? Well, when it was proposed here in the 1970s the opposition came from union leaders--who saw the inevitable conflict of interest rules as potentially limiting their political clout.

The constant attack on the 1% is nothing but preying on the greed and envy of people. There are two ways to make income and wealth dispersion more equal--make the rich poorer or make the poor richer. Making the poor richer is better, but harder; making the rich poorer gives easy sound bytes. And politicians like easy sound bytes.

My approach would be a guaranteed minimum income based on Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz/Linder prebate/prefund, coupled with French Bismarck health care, paid for primarily by elimination of costs associated with eh current means-tested welfare system and secondarily by a consumption tax.

This "global economy and workers who will work for tiny wages" sound byte misses a very large point. Most of the jobs we are losing are not going to workers who will work for tiny wages. Some do, no doubt about that, but every time somebody builds a new factory in Europe or Japan, that's jobs that could be here but are there instead, and those jobs way outnumber the people sewing up Nikes in Thailand and such. We can't compete with the third world for menial jobs. But there's a strong argument that we don't want to. Those wouldn't be great jobs if they were here. Germany can't compete with China for those jobs either, but Germany doesn't try. They do the things that they can do better than China, and they do very well with that approach (unless they end up having to carry all of Europe on their backs). Instead of trying to bring back the jobs paying $2/day in China, why not be the location of choice for the jobs that are paying $30, $40, or $50 an hour in Europe? That requires better education and better infrastructure to improve productivity, world-competitive tax rates, probably a consumption tax, and streamlining regulations by keeping those with substantive effect (clean air, clean water, safer workplaces) and getting rid of those that offer more procedural hassle than substantive benefit.

Companies locate economic activity and therefore jobs overseas to get lower costs, lower taxes, and less intrusive regulations. The way to bring them back is not higher costs, higher taxes, and more intrusive regulations.

(04-05-2016 02:26 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  BTW the answer some countries have found are (1) strong social, government paid for safety invested in by the US Taxpayer (Bernie is advocating this and this is something you see in Scandinavian style welfare state democracies), (2) some countries have stronger minimum wage protections and other worker guarantees (paid family leave, vacation), (3) some countries cap CEO salaries to X percentage of employee salaries, (4) some countries engage in more protectionist policies to protect the value of their workers (taxing imports to a high degree, tariffs...seems Trump has been advocating something akin to this). I have a few thoughts on the answer ways to make things better in this regard, but I do think people have undervalued what the global economy has meant to quality of life in terms of access to technologies and things that make life easier and better that didn't exist or wouldn't exist cheaply without them.

I added reference numbers to your post in order to respond to specific items below.

(1) Actually, Bernie has been pressed several times about whether he supports a guaranteed minimum income, and he has refused to go there. He's still way more about making the rich poorer than about making the poor richer. And the rich don't want to get poorer, so I predict that if Bernie tries, we're going to hear Ross Perot's giant sucking sound as jobs leave the country. Maybe he will put an end to inversion, but that not the only trick in their bag. Bottom line, Bernie is about redistribution, the Scandinavian systems are about a safety net. There are significant differences between the two approaches (Scandinavia taxes corporate profits at about half the rate we do, and their top individual tax rates are actually less than Bernie is proposing, for a couple of examples). What happens in Scandinavia, and pretty much all of Europe for that matter, is that the middle class pays a lot more, and that is offset because they get the same benefits as only the poor (or those who can lie about it) get here.
(2) If you have the guaranteed minimum income, then you don't need a higher minimum wage. With my approach, a full time job at the current minimum wage puts every individual and family in the US above the poverty line. That means that employers can pay people what they are worth in terms of productivity, while at the same time those employees are receiving a living income.
(3) If you put in a hard cap, you will drive those CEOs offshore to jurisdictions without such limits. There are plenty of them, and while some of them are not desirable places to live, some of them are pretty decent. What I would do is to put in some multiple and require that any compensation above that be in forms that do not vest immediately. Putting a 5 year vesting requirement on stock bonuses and such compensation would force CEOs to make good long-term decisions instead of gaming the system short term.
(4) What every other developed country does that we don't is to have a national consumption tax. See Table 2-1 at http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-d...VATTables. They get to charge this on all imports when they are landed, and rebate it on all exports when shipped. It doesn't count as a tariff under international law, so free trade treaties don't impact it. This is one place where leveling the playing field would greatly improve our balance of trade, and in the process we would inevitably be making and exporting things that we now import, and that would create a huge demand for more middle class jobs. No, this won't close the gap much with China or the undeveloped world. But it would make a huge difference with Europe, and we import about half as much from Europe, net, as we do from China. Turn that from a negative to a positive of equal magnitude, and that change would pretty much offset China. Then we are down to oil driving our trade deficit, and we can do things there, too.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 08:41 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-06-2016 08:35 AM
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gsu95 Offline
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Post: #166
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-04-2016 09:41 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 11:54 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo,

It's called a school board. The tax payers vote those guys in too. We can't bargain with the entire population of the township! The taxpayers get to choose their representative every single election.

You and I both know what school boards are Mach. They are simply folks that have a personal agenda for being there. Mostly... THIER Little Johnny or Jenny. That is who they represent...not those that voted for them. Ive seen it so many times it make me sick.03-puke

School boards I'm familiar with are usually dominated by folks with an interest in making sure the schools are the best they can be ... sometimes for economic reasons.

Good schools are a selling point. I'd say at one point the school board in one community I covered had two mortgage loan officers on it and the longtime chairman real estate broker.

The better your school system, the more houses you sell. That said, the system was one of the best in the state.

There also were a couple of -'parents' and education types in there, but they seemed to be pretty dedicated to quality education for all kids. In fact, they seemed to be the most interested in preserving programs that made sure less affluent kids had opportunities.
04-06-2016 08:52 AM
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gsu95 Offline
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Post: #167
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 08:35 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:21 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  In a realist's mind, companies exist to make profit and union's exist to protect employees from exploitation in the company's pursuit of profit. The global economy and ability to find worker's who aren't unionized who will work for tiny wages has eroded the bargaining power of unions and made it much harder for low skilled laborers to make a living at the level they once were able to. You want a major reason Trump and Bernie do so well these days...it's income concentration in the top 1% and that inability for low skilled labor to make the kind of living. We've never found a modern economic answer to bringing up the middle class since unions have faded from society.

I support labor--unionized or not--in its role of protecting employees from exploitation. But modern unions do very little of that, and government employee unions do virtually none. Where I have problems with unions is that they seem to exist far too much to exercise political clout that inures to the power and benefit of the union leadership instead of the workers. I like the German model, where workers elect a certain number of members to the corporate board of directors. This means that the board effectively represents three classes of stakeholders--management, investors, and labor. I think this is the proper level at which the interests of labor should be recognized. Who doesn't like this model? Well, when it was proposed here in the 1970s the opposition came from union leaders--who saw the inevitable conflict of interest rules as potentially limiting their political clout.

The constant attack on the 1% is nothing but preying on the greed and envy of people. There are two ways to make income and wealth dispersion more equal--make the rich poorer or make the poor richer. Making the poor richer is better, but harder; making the rich poorer gives easy sound bytes. And politicians like easy sound bytes.

My approach would be a guaranteed minimum income based on Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz/Linder prebate/prefund, coupled with French Bismarck health care, paid for primarily by elimination of costs associated with eh current means-tested welfare system and secondarily by a consumption tax.

This "global economy and workers who will work for tiny wages" sound byte misses a very large point. Most of the jobs we are losing are not going to workers who will work for tiny wages. Some do, no doubt about that, but every time somebody builds a new factory in Europe or Japan, that's jobs that could be here but are there instead, and those jobs way outnumber the people sewing up Nikes in Thailand and such. We can't compete with the third world for menial jobs. But there's a strong argument that we don't want to. Those wouldn't be great jobs if they were here. Germany can't compete with China for those jobs either, but Germany doesn't try. They do the things that they can do better than China, and they do very well with that approach (unless they end up having to carry all of Europe on their backs). Instead of trying to bring back the jobs paying $2/day in China, why not be the location of choice for the jobs that are paying $30, $40, or $50 an hour in Europe? That requires better education and better infrastructure to improve productivity, world-competitive tax rates, probably a consumption tax, and streamlining regulations by keeping those with substantive effect (clean air, clean water, safer workplaces) and getting rid of those that offer more procedural hassle than substantive benefit.

Companies locate economic activity and therefore jobs overseas to get lower costs, lower taxes, and less intrusive regulations. The way to bring them back is not higher costs, higher taxes, and more intrusive regulations.

(04-05-2016 02:26 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  BTW the answer some countries have found are (1) strong social, government paid for safety invested in by the US Taxpayer (Bernie is advocating this and this is something you see in Scandinavian style welfare state democracies), (2) some countries have stronger minimum wage protections and other worker guarantees (paid family leave, vacation), (3) some countries cap CEO salaries to X percentage of employee salaries, (4) some countries engage in more protectionist policies to protect the value of their workers (taxing imports to a high degree, tariffs...seems Trump has been advocating something akin to this). I have a few thoughts on the answer ways to make things better in this regard, but I do think people have undervalued what the global economy has meant to quality of life in terms of access to technologies and things that make life easier and better that didn't exist or wouldn't exist cheaply without them.

I added reference numbers to your post in order to respond to specific items below.

(1) Actually, Bernie has been pressed several times about whether he supports a guaranteed minimum income, and he has refused to go there. He's still way more about making the rich poorer than about making the poor richer. And the rich don't want to get poorer, so I predict that if Bernie tries, we're going to hear Ross Perot's giant sucking sound as jobs leave the country. Maybe he will put an end to inversion, but that not the only trick in their bag. Bottom line, Bernie is about redistribution, the Scandinavian systems are about a safety net. There are significant differences between the two approaches (Scandinavia taxes corporate profits at about half the rate we do, and their top individual tax rates are actually less than Bernie is proposing, for a couple of examples). What happens in Scandinavia, and pretty much all of Europe for that matter, is that the middle class pays a lot more, and that is offset because they get the same benefits as only the poor (or those who can lie about it) get here.
(2) If you have the guaranteed minimum income, then you don't need a higher minimum wage. With my approach, a full time job at the current minimum wage puts every individual and family in the US above the poverty line. That means that employers can pay people what they are worth in terms of productivity, while at the same time those employees are receiving a living income.
(3) If you put in a hard cap, you will drive those CEOs offshore to jurisdictions without such limits. There are plenty of them, and while some of them are not desirable places to live, some of them are pretty decent. What I would do is to put in some multiple and require that any compensation above that be in forms that do not vest immediately. Putting a 5 year vesting requirement on stock bonuses and such compensation would force CEOs to make good long-term decisions instead of gaming the system short term.
(4) What every other developed country does that we don't is to have a national consumption tax. See Table 2-1 at http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-d...VATTables. They get to charge this on all imports when they are landed, and rebate it on all exports when shipped. It doesn't count as a tariff under international law, so free trade treaties don't impact it. This is one place where leveling the playing field would greatly improve our balance of trade, and in the process we would inevitably be making and exporting things that we now import, and that would create a huge demand for more middle class jobs. No, this won't close the gap much with China or the undeveloped world. But it would make a huge difference with Europe, and we import about half as much from Europe, net, as we do from China. Turn that from a negative to a positive of equal magnitude, and that change would pretty much offset China. Then we are down to oil driving our trade deficit, and we can do things there, too.

Good post. I printed it out to read again later.
04-06-2016 08:54 AM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #168
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 08:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 07:07 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 06:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.
But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.
THIS THRICE!

1. Spend money in the classroom, not in the administration building.
2. Implement a tracking system, probably starting around the transition from junior high to high school, which absolutely MUST be accompanied by vastly improved vocational education.
3. Put teachers back in charge in classrooms.
4. Measure and track everybody--students, teachers, administrators, parents--and hold each of them accountable. Have ONE test that counts, not the myriad of testing that we now have (one reason why we spend so much on administration).
5. Vouchers. If we go to something more like the German system, where the different tracks effectively go to different schools, this would tie in with point 1 above.

My proposal to teachers would be this: We're going to pay you more, a lot more, and give you more authority in your classroom, and in return we are going to hold you accountable and implement procedures to ensure that accountability.

I agree with everything above. Additionally however, any accountability system that doesn't factor in student IQ is like firing a gun in the dark and hoping to hit something. For example - a teacher will be heroic if she/he can take a kid with a 70 IQ and keep them somewhere in the ballpark of grade level - in fact it's likely they can't. Conversely, a kid with a 130 IQ should master grade level easily and actually go beyond - just keeping that kid at grade level is actually not a good job.
04-06-2016 09:06 AM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #169
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 09:06 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 08:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 07:07 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 06:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.
But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.
THIS THRICE!

1. Spend money in the classroom, not in the administration building.
2. Implement a tracking system, probably starting around the transition from junior high to high school, which absolutely MUST be accompanied by vastly improved vocational education.
3. Put teachers back in charge in classrooms.
4. Measure and track everybody--students, teachers, administrators, parents--and hold each of them accountable. Have ONE test that counts, not the myriad of testing that we now have (one reason why we spend so much on administration).
5. Vouchers. If we go to something more like the German system, where the different tracks effectively go to different schools, this would tie in with point 1 above.

My proposal to teachers would be this: We're going to pay you more, a lot more, and give you more authority in your classroom, and in return we are going to hold you accountable and implement procedures to ensure that accountability.

I agree with everything above. Additionally however, any accountability system that doesn't factor in student IQ is like firing a gun in the dark and hoping to hit something. For example - a teacher will be heroic if she/he can take a kid with a 70 IQ and keep them somewhere in the ballpark of grade level - in fact it's likely they can't. Conversely, a kid with a 130 IQ should master grade level easily and actually go beyond - just keeping that kid at grade level is actually not a good job.

the words are "measurable" in conjunction with "division"....

toss in how monies are distributed and 'win' can be created once again....
04-06-2016 09:18 AM
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gsu95 Offline
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Post: #170
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 06:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.

But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.


Interesting. I get into how public schools are run, not even sure why. I hated school.
Anyhow, I covered a school system that a few years ago consistently spent less on overhead than all but a handful of systems in Georgia, and the school board and administrators were proud of that.

Then the school board hired a new superintendent (former one retired) and he starts adding assistant superintendents and central office staff, curriculum folks, etc. This a couple years ago.

That rankled some BoE folks, and I respected why - they wanted to keep taxes as low as they could to look good to the constituency and also keep as much money going toward the classroom.

Flip side, I kinda understood where the superintendent was coming from. The system had grown in enrollment by anywhere from 5 to 15 percent a year for nearly two decades and it was taking more teachers and more support staff to handle the influx. They didn't even have an HR person when I got there. Hell, I was friendly with the system's chief (and only) financial officer, and I know she had a lot to handle. She was very good at her job, but her office looked like mine. Paper and folders everywhere.

From what I understand covering school boards, 75 percent of a general operating budget goes to personnel. Teachers, janitors, bus drivers, principals. Other good chunks go to operations (buses, maintenance, facilities, etc), etc.

And in Georgia, successive Republican governors had 'austerity cuts' that resulted in the loss of about $30-40 million in state funding over the time I covered that particular school system. This at the same time that school system grew from about 5,000 to more than 9,000 students over the time I covered it.
04-06-2016 09:22 AM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #171
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 08:52 AM)gsu95 Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 09:41 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 11:54 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Fo,

It's called a school board. The tax payers vote those guys in too. We can't bargain with the entire population of the township! The taxpayers get to choose their representative every single election.

You and I both know what school boards are Mach. They are simply folks that have a personal agenda for being there. Mostly... THIER Little Johnny or Jenny. That is who they represent...not those that voted for them. Ive seen it so many times it make me sick.03-puke

School boards I'm familiar with are usually dominated by folks with an interest in making sure the schools are the best they can be ... sometimes for economic reasons.

Good schools are a selling point. I'd say at one point the school board in one community I covered had two mortgage loan officers on it and the longtime chairman real estate broker.

The better your school system, the more houses you sell. That said, the system was one of the best in the state.

There also were a couple of -'parents' and education types in there, but they seemed to be pretty dedicated to quality education for all kids. In fact, they seemed to be the most interested in preserving programs that made sure less affluent kids had opportunities.

School Boards can be a mixed bag with some being very good and other agenda driven. With that said, "most" school board members were never education or facilities professionals. Given that - being a school board member isn't too far from "Well, I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night." - meaning that far too often they really couldn't tell a good principal from a bad one or a good teacher from a bad one or a wasteful expenditure facility or a good one...........................or a good teachers contract from a bad one.

In short - it's often a crapshoot.
04-06-2016 09:27 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #172
RE: Question for our board leftists
I've wanted to post this for awhile but didn't want to complain or brag as weird as that is going to sound. I shared with Owl my tests scores a year ago so he can attest to this. My school and the classes that I am responsible for tested the highest test scores in the state last year. It was exceptional. Owl can attest to this from some of you who like to blast me. I really wish I could show them but you sometimes can acquire enemies on here today and from the past too. I've shared a lot over the years but I'm not going to go total Hansel And Gretal and put the bread crumbs to my front door.

The main things I want to share and why I know what I know.

1. My school this year has 67% of it's kids that receive free of reduced lunches. That is lowest in my county and it doesn't fits the profile of what you would consider a school with those test scores. Now how do we do this. We are in the top 1% of school districts in Ohio in per pupil spending? How is that? I live in a resort area. We have houses in our district that sell for 10's of millions of dollars. 82% of the houses in my district are seasonal. Somebody who is really rich can afford to have a second home in my district. In the winter our town goes down to 8,000 people. On a summer weekend estimates are my town swells to 250,000-275,000. The other thing that enriches our school. If you can afford to buy a house here you probably don't have kids. Most people consider us a private public school. My classes average under 15 kids. I know money makes a difference because I see it and I see it with kids who live in poverty. It's the weirdest situation because I have white collar kids sitting next to a kid whose Mom cleans cottages in the summer. Dirt poor kids rubbing elbows with a kid that will inherit a 20 million dollar marina one day. It's the unique of the unique.

2. I also laugh at those that say a Union protects teachers. The "You can't fire a teacher". This is bull****. Our district gives the golden handshake all the time. People can and do slip through the hiring cracks. If they are not a cultural or classroom fit our superintendent will have a meeting. We can do this the easy way or the hard way. Hard way is we are up your A** and we give terrible evaluations. The easy was is I can give you decent evaluations and give you a half of a years salary and a year of insurance when you resign to go to another district. This has happened 4 times in the last 5 years. Our Union knows the score. We want the best of the best too. We are paid in the top 10% of the state. We would like to get to 5% but we know the score. Every now and then you get a froggy board member and we know how to play the game there too. We keep score as I'm sure they do. When you have Unions you have power. We had one board president who didn't like it when his daughter wasn't the starting softball pitcher. The softball coach lost his job after a winning season. The coach who replaced him, who back doored him, and who was the hand picked successor by the school board. Quit the jobe in year 3 after a winless season. That left a BURNING SEARING IMPRESSION on me. I know what happens when the Union can not protect good people. I know what also happens when the Union knows what is best for the school. It's amazing when both sides WORK TOGETHER!!

3. NOW the complaints. Here is what has me worried. These new proficiency tests are BULLSHYT. I'm going to post some sample questions provided by the State. Take 15 minutes out of your day to feel my pain. For the first time in my teaching career I'm concerned. I really am. I'll post how we do in the summer.

https://login1.cloud2.tds.airast.org/stu...?c=Ohio_PT
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 10:06 AM by Machiavelli.)
04-06-2016 10:04 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #173
RE: Question for our board leftists
I teach 10th grade Biology. Just login as guests.



FEEL THE PAIN.


Go to 10th grade PBA and the EYO

Fun times in my life right now.
04-06-2016 10:13 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #174
RE: Question for our board leftists
Here's the last thing with these new and improved school tests. I never wanted to ***** about them because the old ones I kicked butt on. Always the top in my county and some of the highest in the region. These new "steroid" tests. I am convinced they are there to privatize education. They could care less about the kid. If a school falls into Academic watch or Academic emergency the district is then responsible for a voucher the size of the state aid.

That's the hidden motivation behind making these tests impossible. Did anybody try the tests yet?
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 10:56 AM by Machiavelli.)
04-06-2016 10:56 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #175
RE: Question for our board leftists
I logged in and tried the American History test. I quit after the first question.

What is the point of these stupidly worded and laid out questions? Drag phrases into a box?

Whatever happened to A, B, C, D, or E?
04-06-2016 10:59 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #176
RE: Question for our board leftists
Dixie,


Please do me the honor of trying to take the exam. I really want some of you guys to kind of appreciate what we are trying to do. Then factor in who I am trying to teach. Some of these concepts I covered in college. Try to explain a chi square test to a 10th grade kid.
04-06-2016 11:49 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #177
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 09:06 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 08:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 07:07 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 06:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 02:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  That's certainly possible. I know some teachers, and some of them complain about not having much money, but that administration seems to be spending a lot (and some of it on stupid things). I guess I'd want to know how much is spent more directly on students rather than overhead, but I don't know if anything like that would be available. Probably the expectations of parents is a bigger factor, but might be necessary while not sufficient.
But this is kind of my point. Throwing more money at education is not going to solve any problems as long as it is spent on stupid stuff. And one really stupid place for administrations to spend more and more on is--administration. Overhead has grown astronomically, instead of spending money in the classrooms.
THIS THRICE!

1. Spend money in the classroom, not in the administration building.
2. Implement a tracking system, probably starting around the transition from junior high to high school, which absolutely MUST be accompanied by vastly improved vocational education.
3. Put teachers back in charge in classrooms.
4. Measure and track everybody--students, teachers, administrators, parents--and hold each of them accountable. Have ONE test that counts, not the myriad of testing that we now have (one reason why we spend so much on administration).
5. Vouchers. If we go to something more like the German system, where the different tracks effectively go to different schools, this would tie in with point 1 above.

My proposal to teachers would be this: We're going to pay you more, a lot more, and give you more authority in your classroom, and in return we are going to hold you accountable and implement procedures to ensure that accountability.
I agree with everything above. Additionally however, any accountability system that doesn't factor in student IQ is like firing a gun in the dark and hoping to hit something. For example - a teacher will be heroic if she/he can take a kid with a 70 IQ and keep them somewhere in the ballpark of grade level - in fact it's likely they can't. Conversely, a kid with a 130 IQ should master grade level easily and actually go beyond - just keeping that kid at grade level is actually not a good job.

Absolutely. Have every student take the ONE test at the end of every year. That determines (1) whether they can pass to the next grade or not (if they flunk, they get one retest), and (2) after they start on tracks, what tracks they are eligible for (and student and parents can select any track for which student is eligible, if more than one). Establish each student's level at the end of the school year. Then measure progress from one year to the next, and that is what teachers are evaluated on. If a 4th grade teacher gets in a bunch of kids who were already reading at a 4th grade level at the end of the 3rd grade, then that's the teacher's starting point. If they were reading at a 2nd grade level, that's the starting point. Then when you test at the end of the year, calculate how far the teacher brought them. In this system, average would be an overall improvement of 1 year, good would be an overall improvement greater than 1 year, bad would be overall improvement less than 1 year.

Students (and parents) have skin in the game because they have to pass the test to pass the grade. After tracking starts, they have further skin in the game because the test determines eligibility for different tracks. If you fail the test, you have one retake. If you don't end up on the track you want, you can repeat the grade one time to see if you can come up to snuff.

Once each teacher's average annual progress is known, then parents have some information to start making choices and demands. I would expect parents to demand the firing of any teacher who consistently fails to meet the 1 year improvement standard. I would expect parents to demand that their little snowflakes have options when schools fail to meet the 1 year standard as a whole. This is where vouchers should come into play.
04-06-2016 02:31 PM
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gsu95 Offline
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Post: #178
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-06-2016 10:04 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I've wanted to post this for awhile but didn't want to complain or brag as weird as that is going to sound. I shared with Owl my tests scores a year ago so he can attest to this. My school and the classes that I am responsible for tested the highest test scores in the state last year. It was exceptional. Owl can attest to this from some of you who like to blast me. I really wish I could show them but you sometimes can acquire enemies on here today and from the past too. I've shared a lot over the years but I'm not going to go total Hansel And Gretal and put the bread crumbs to my front door.

The main things I want to share and why I know what I know.

1. My school this year has 67% of it's kids that receive free of reduced lunches. That is lowest in my county and it doesn't fits the profile of what you would consider a school with those test scores. Now how do we do this. We are in the top 1% of school districts in Ohio in per pupil spending? How is that? I live in a resort area. We have houses in our district that sell for 10's of millions of dollars. 82% of the houses in my district are seasonal. Somebody who is really rich can afford to have a second home in my district. In the winter our town goes down to 8,000 people. On a summer weekend estimates are my town swells to 250,000-275,000. The other thing that enriches our school. If you can afford to buy a house here you probably don't have kids. Most people consider us a private public school. My classes average under 15 kids. I know money makes a difference because I see it and I see it with kids who live in poverty. It's the weirdest situation because I have white collar kids sitting next to a kid whose Mom cleans cottages in the summer. Dirt poor kids rubbing elbows with a kid that will inherit a 20 million dollar marina one day. It's the unique of the unique.

2. I also laugh at those that say a Union protects teachers. The "You can't fire a teacher". This is bull****. Our district gives the golden handshake all the time. People can and do slip through the hiring cracks. If they are not a cultural or classroom fit our superintendent will have a meeting. We can do this the easy way or the hard way. Hard way is we are up your A** and we give terrible evaluations. The easy was is I can give you decent evaluations and give you a half of a years salary and a year of insurance when you resign to go to another district. This has happened 4 times in the last 5 years. Our Union knows the score. We want the best of the best too. We are paid in the top 10% of the state. We would like to get to 5% but we know the score. Every now and then you get a froggy board member and we know how to play the game there too. We keep score as I'm sure they do. When you have Unions you have power. We had one board president who didn't like it when his daughter wasn't the starting softball pitcher. The softball coach lost his job after a winning season. The coach who replaced him, who back doored him, and who was the hand picked successor by the school board. Quit the jobe in year 3 after a winless season. That left a BURNING SEARING IMPRESSION on me. I know what happens when the Union can not protect good people. I know what also happens when the Union knows what is best for the school. It's amazing when both sides WORK TOGETHER!!

3. NOW the complaints. Here is what has me worried. These new proficiency tests are BULLSHYT. I'm going to post some sample questions provided by the State. Take 15 minutes out of your day to feel my pain. For the first time in my teaching career I'm concerned. I really am. I'll post how we do in the summer.

https://login1.cloud2.tds.airast.org/stu...?c=Ohio_PT



As to No. 1 - the system I covered and referred to is similar in terms of great wealth and a lot of poverty existing side by side. It's on coast, so lots of wealthy, median income is probably highest in that particular area. Lot of gated communities, including one which has second homes for some pretty high rollers -- former federal officials at cabinet level, couple well known musicians, and movie folks, corporate heirs, even a direct descendant of Mark Twain, or so I was told (about Twain). They are really private people, hard to get an audience with them unless they want to. At one point they wouldn't even let in volunteer firefighters after report of fire. They have their own private FD and security.


That said, about 70 percent of kids in the public school system are on free or reduced lunch program. And demographically system is about 85 percent white.
04-06-2016 02:43 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #179
RE: Question for our board leftists
Sounds very similar. We have some Browns players. One had twin kids that lived down the street and he sent his kids to a private school. Two kids from s professional lineman would go a long long ways in our division. We are very small.
04-06-2016 03:58 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #180
RE: Question for our board leftists
(04-04-2016 11:00 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  In a leftists mind, companies exist to provide jobs not make profit.
If a company makes a profit that is deemed too large they are mean-spirited, evil capitalists.

Actually, in a leftist's mind, companies exist to pay taxes.
04-06-2016 06:01 PM
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