The NCAA is a toothless tiger if you are one of the big cats, such as UNC, Sadexcuse, Louiswille, U Con.

Just ask SMU.

(04-03-2016 09:27 AM)ucbrownsfan Wrote:  Cheating vs Breaking Rules?

One of the questions I've always had that I think is prevalent in basketball as well as most sports. What's the difference being competing for recruits, and intentionally fouling at the end of the game. All intentional fouling is to put the other team to the line when losing is gaming a rule that isn't strong enough for your own advantage. I'm sure at one point in history, it felt dirty to other coaches to foul to send someone to the line, but now it's so commonplace its not cheating. The real problem is basketball - especially college has a few too many soft rules. What other sport do you gain an advantage by fouling the other team? Breaking the rules in any sport is risk/ reward as opposed to cheating, but I can't think of any other sport where the plan at the start of the opponents possesion is to foul the other team.

So if a coach's mindset is to see rules as grey risk reward decisions while competing in a game, shouldn't they see them that way also while competing in recruiting?

Look at this as a risk/reward scenario. You take a risk when fouling with that risk being the other team will make both shots putting you farther behind. The reward is they miss.

Same goes with recruiting. You can take a risk by cheating in recruiting but the reward is substantial if you get away with it.

I'm sure I'll be in the vast minority but if UC loaded up on great players, won a national title, and found out 5+ years later Mick had cheated to get those players I wouldn't care. It will have been worth it for me. The NCAA is such a joke the worst you'll get is a loss of recruits and a post season ban for a couple years. Would you trade a couple of bad season for a national championship....I would.

I'm guessing the majority of fans for USC football, Michigan basketball, Louisville basketball, UNC basketball, Ohio State football, etc etc all would agree with me. All of these teams won national championships with teams that cheated. A decade later no one ever cares about the cheating. All they remember is how dominant that team was.

So as far as I'm concerned go ahead and cheat Mick. Everyone else is doing it and many of them are reaping incredible rewards .... so why shouldn't you.

(04-04-2016 07:45 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  

(04-03-2016 09:27 AM)ucbrownsfan Wrote:  Cheating vs Breaking Rules?

One of the questions I've always had that I think is prevalent in basketball as well as most sports. What's the difference being competing for recruits, and intentionally fouling at the end of the game. All intentional fouling is to put the other team to the line when losing is gaming a rule that isn't strong enough for your own advantage. I'm sure at one point in history, it felt dirty to other coaches to foul to send someone to the line, but now it's so commonplace its not cheating. The real problem is basketball - especially college has a few too many soft rules. What other sport do you gain an advantage by fouling the other team? Breaking the rules in any sport is risk/ reward as opposed to cheating, but I can't think of any other sport where the plan at the start of the opponents possesion is to foul the other team.

So if a coach's mindset is to see rules as grey risk reward decisions while competing in a game, shouldn't they see them that way also while competing in recruiting?

Look at this as a risk/reward scenario. You take a risk when fouling with that risk being the other team will make both shots putting you farther behind. The reward is they miss.

Same goes with recruiting. You can take a risk by cheating in recruiting but the reward is substantial if you get away with it.

I'm sure I'll be in the vast minority but if UC loaded up on great players, won a national title, and found out 5+ years later Mick had cheated to get those players I wouldn't care. It will have been worth it for me. The NCAA is such a joke the worst you'll get is a loss of recruits and a post season ban for a couple years. Would you trade a couple of bad season for a national championship....I would.

I'm guessing the majority of fans for USC football, Michigan basketball, Louisville basketball, UNC basketball, Ohio State football, etc etc all would agree with me. All of these teams won national championships with teams that cheated. A decade later no one ever cares about the cheating. All they remember is how dominant that team was.

So as far as I'm concerned go ahead and cheat Mick. Everyone else is doing it and many of them are reaping incredible rewards .... so why shouldn't you.

I've made the point before on this board but athletics is to the point that athletic departments are acting irresponsibly if they don't cheat to some extent. The simply is not a lot of down side to doing it anymore. Even if Louisville gets punched in the mouth for this hooker ordeal they will still have hundreds of million in the bank and everyone will remember they won those titles on the court. They won't miss a beat. Odds are they won't get that hard anyway.

Remember Ohio State? They actually finished out stronger after having a one year bowl ban due to tattoo-gate and lying to the NCAA. They got a younger head coach who recruits at a higher level and basically haven't lost more than a hand full of games in the past few years combined.

(04-04-2016 07:57 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2016 07:45 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  

(04-03-2016 09:27 AM)ucbrownsfan Wrote:  Cheating vs Breaking Rules?

One of the questions I've always had that I think is prevalent in basketball as well as most sports. What's the difference being competing for recruits, and intentionally fouling at the end of the game. All intentional fouling is to put the other team to the line when losing is gaming a rule that isn't strong enough for your own advantage. I'm sure at one point in history, it felt dirty to other coaches to foul to send someone to the line, but now it's so commonplace its not cheating. The real problem is basketball - especially college has a few too many soft rules. What other sport do you gain an advantage by fouling the other team? Breaking the rules in any sport is risk/ reward as opposed to cheating, but I can't think of any other sport where the plan at the start of the opponents possesion is to foul the other team.

So if a coach's mindset is to see rules as grey risk reward decisions while competing in a game, shouldn't they see them that way also while competing in recruiting?

Look at this as a risk/reward scenario. You take a risk when fouling with that risk being the other team will make both shots putting you farther behind. The reward is they miss.

Same goes with recruiting. You can take a risk by cheating in recruiting but the reward is substantial if you get away with it.

I'm sure I'll be in the vast minority but if UC loaded up on great players, won a national title, and found out 5+ years later Mick had cheated to get those players I wouldn't care. It will have been worth it for me. The NCAA is such a joke the worst you'll get is a loss of recruits and a post season ban for a couple years. Would you trade a couple of bad season for a national championship....I would.

I'm guessing the majority of fans for USC football, Michigan basketball, Louisville basketball, UNC basketball, Ohio State football, etc etc all would agree with me. All of these teams won national championships with teams that cheated. A decade later no one ever cares about the cheating. All they remember is how dominant that team was.

So as far as I'm concerned go ahead and cheat Mick. Everyone else is doing it and many of them are reaping incredible rewards .... so why shouldn't you.

I've made the point before on this board but athletics is to the point that athletic departments are acting irresponsibly if they don't cheat to some extent. The simply is not a lot of down side to doing it anymore. Even if Louisville gets punched in the mouth for this hooker ordeal they will still have hundreds of million in the bank and everyone will remember they won those titles on the court. They won't miss a beat. Odds are they won't get that hard anyway.

Remember Ohio State? They actually finished out stronger after having a one year bowl ban due to tattoo-gate and lying to the NCAA. They got a younger head coach who recruits at a higher level and basically haven't lost more than a hand full of games in the past few years combined.

And arguably Tressel moved up as well. Even though he had a "show clause" placed upon his employment as a Head Coach, he moved from coaching up into administration.

But I think we need to be honest and remember that there are, in fact, different sets of enforcement. The NCAA may not have beat the hell out of OSU, Syracuse, or UNC, but I believe they wouldn't hesitate for a second to drop the hammer on a UC or any other AAC team. Maybe even harder, in fact, to "make an example" of a lesser program.

What really should have happened with both Syracuse and North Carolina does not lie with the NCAA, but their accrediting agencies and their alumni. The academic accrediting agencies should say something to the extent of "Because course work was falsified, we cannot independently certify as to the worth of a degree from your institution." Then the alumni, who are the real victims in this case, who spent major $$$ and resources in getting their degrees...which are now worthless...would demand systemic change in the institution. But because the accreditation ISN'T jeopardized and because the alumni see major rewards in winning at any-and-all-cost, nothing will change.

(04-04-2016 09:51 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  But I think we need to be honest and remember that there are, in fact, different sets of enforcement. The NCAA may not have beat the hell out of OSU, Syracuse, or UNC, but I believe they wouldn't hesitate for a second to drop the hammer on a UC or any other AAC team. Maybe even harder, in fact, to "make an example" of a lesser program.

Even if this is true, which I tend to think its not, this assumes you get caught. And I'd guess that less than 5% of the cheating that goes on gets caught. The risk is well worth the reward because the risk is so minimal and the punishment rarely fits the crime.

I enjoy college basketball and football however I don't get upset anymore when it comes to programs breaking the rules. Let's face it college football and basketball are a sham and so is the NCAA. These so called student athletes are so called amateurs, even though they are generating millions of dollars for their schools and billions of dollars for the Television Networks.
I know most people will not like this however we had a renegade program under Huggins. I attended UC in the late 90s and graduated in 2001. I had a class with a basketball player who only showed up a few times. We had players who were good students and people however we had quite a few bad apples who got into trouble with the law. Most big time college programs are like this. My brother attended Ohio State in the 90s and a couple of cousins who attended UK in the 90s and they each loved their universities and basketball and football teams however they acknowledged that their programs were corrupt.

IMO, bottom line is this... "punishments" for rule breaking or cheating are a lot like fines in major sports. If you tell me I'm going to be fined $75K for not following my workplace rules it's crippling because I'm at best a G5 relatively speaking. That same $75K for an NFL LB or a MLB pitcher or an NBA player is a pittance unless you're making the league minimum. Same with the college sports top programs, especially as the P5 continue to separate themselves. For UofL or O$U or UNC or even schools like PSU, The U etc. to lose scholarships or be forced to vacate titles/wins is almost irrelevant. To have any of those sanctions applied at the G5 level is almost a program death sentence and by extension a mortal blow to the school's entire athletic budget and program. Probation, vacated wins, firing coaches is nothing at most P5s because the $$$ are already banked, the positive air time and exposure received, the second and third tier casual fans have been created (thus insuring future cash flow, tv revenues etc.) etc.etc. Unfortunately, as a G5, even a high G5, when the same sanctions are applied, those schools tend to shrink completely from view and wither due to dried up sources of dollars and interest. This example was given earlier, but when Tressel and O$U had their thing, how many top named coaches were beating a path to follow him? Now ask yourself, how many would do th[/i]e same for a UC team in the same boat?