(03-29-2016 01:55 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 11:37 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 11:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  what do you have against people with down syndrome?


I don't. I just can't tell someone else how to live. It's the ultimate invasion of your privacy and rights. Can't square it. I can't.

but you want to tell people that they have to have healthcare and if they dont, they'll get a fine; you want to tell kids what to eat at school; you want to tell people that they can and cant own guns... want me to continue?

No offense and no disrespect to anyone on this board, but God I get so sick of this same old tired crap.

You don't think mandatory insurance is a good idea? Me neither. I think we should eliminate the middleman and have universal healthcare.
But it is what it is.

So, if you don't have insurance you can afford to buy and you get sick then the taxpayers will have to foot a portion of the bill for you because like as not you're not going to be able to afford the full cost of your care. Far as I'm concerned, if you can afford insurance and opt not to buy and you cost taxpayers then your ass should be fined. You're a drag on society.

You want your kids to eat whatever you want? Fine, feed it to them at home or send them to a private school, but healthy meals are important and for some kids the only decent food they'll get all day is what's served in a public school cafeteria. There need to be healthy guidelines. And if sugar in colas is bad for you, why allow it to be sold in unhealthy quantities? Isn't obesity a cost too society, and therefore a cost to taxpayers?

Guns.
You think some lunatic with an IQ of 18 ought to be toting an AR15 so he can shoot up the hunting club and everybody in it? Fine. But keep him there, not wandering around WalMart and church just because he thinks he's a bigger man with a gun. Stupid *****. I have three weapons and I am all for responsible gun ownership, but this constant NRA-fueled, simpleton knee jerk bitchfest reaction to the whole idea of trying to do SOMETHING to bring down the level of gun violence in this country is starting to make me want to puke. There's nothing manly about toting a gun just to tote a gun. Andy Taylor didn't need one.

At the end of the day, I think most liberals at least want the right to at least be consistent. If you don't want government interfering in people's lives, fine. Then stop picking and choosing what you want government to interfere in. Hey, you want to blow government up? Blow it all up, not the stuff I like and you don't.

That's the problem with too many on the right. They want government to go away until they see an issue they don't like (or a tax break or spending project or budget cuts that will benefit them and their's, but that's a different level of hypocrisy altogether) and then they go vote up patriotic sounding crap that too often seems to be aimed at those who are different.

Sorry. Again, no disrespect intended. I used to be a Republican. And there are Republican ideals I think are good things. But the stuff they stomp around about now isn't necessarily good.

Nice rant. Total BS, but I applaud your effort.

I do, however, want to take up two points.

Quote:There's nothing manly about toting a gun just to tote a gun. Andy Taylor didn't need one.

You are aware that Andy Taylor was a character on a TV show and not real life right? I know you leftists like to get your "news" from late night comedians (probably because you and your ilk in the real press have become total jokes) but I have to draw the line when you start drawing parallels to TV shows. You know why Andy Taylor didn't need to carry a gun? Because that's how his writers wrote the show. If Mayberry were real and currently situated in the portion of NC it was supposed to be in the first thing Andy Taylor would do each morning would be to put on his gun because of the invasion of illegal immigrants you leftists love so much and the violent gangs they bring with them.

Quote:At the end of the day, I think most liberals at least want the right to at least be consistent.

Since you think TV characters are ideal models for how we live life let me give it to you in a way you'll understand. In the immortal words of Colonel Sherman Potter "HORSE HOCKEY".

Leftists on abortion - "The government has no business dealing with my ******!"
Leftists on homosexuality - "My sex life is no business of the government!"
Leftists on birth control - "The government should pay for it"

Leftists on the Second Amendment - "THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT MUSKETS!!!"
Leftists on the First Amendment - "The framers of the Constitution were clearly talking about this man having the freedom to write the Psalms in cat feces."

Leftists on taxes - "People should say more"
Leftists after being directed to the program where they can donate more of their own money to the federal government - *crickets*

I could go on and on and on.

(03-29-2016 02:03 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  From the article:

Quote:And parts of it are downright creepy. Indiana will become the first state to require fetal remains be buried or cremated instead of treated as medical waste like all other tissue from surgeries.

Regardless of where one stands on abortion rights, the columnist should understand that some would consider treating a fetus "like medical waste" as the creepy part.

They have to treat it like medical waste and call it medical waste in order to be able to do the mental gymnastics of convincing themselves it isn't human in order to be able to abort it in the first place.

(03-29-2016 03:17 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Boys,

I have lived this I have felt this. The total thing of this changes entirely when it is forced upon you. I've lost two children now. Not one..... TWO. I know what I speak of. I'm saying the calculus changes immensely when that decision of continuing the pregnancy is not yours but the governments. I think it is mental torture to make someone carry a pregnancy against their wishes. I know of no other term.

Mach,

I'm not trying to minimize what you go through. Few can possibly understand. I saw my brother lose a young child and the way it tore him up is beyond words.

So please, understand what I am asking is from a logical view point not an equivalency one.

In the days when they could not test for chromosomal disorders prenatally would it be torture not to let parents drown a newborn because of such a defect?

This all comes down to "when does human life begin". The rest of the conversation is simple logic based on that difference.

(03-29-2016 03:31 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 03:17 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Boys,

I have lived this I have felt this. The total thing of this changes entirely when it is forced upon you. I've lost two children now. Not one..... TWO. I know what I speak of. I'm saying the calculus changes immensely when that decision of continuing the pregnancy is not yours but the governments. I think it is mental torture to make someone carry a pregnancy against their wishes. I know of no other term.

Mach,

I'm not trying to minimize what you go through. Few can possibly understand. I saw my brother lose a young child and the way it tore him up is beyond words.

So please, understand what I am asking is from a logical view point not an equivalency one.

In the days when they could not test for chromosomal disorders prenatally would it be torture not to let parents drown a newborn because of such a defect?

This all comes down to "when does human life begin". The rest of the conversation is simple logic based on that difference.

It seems logical that when in doubt we should err on the side of life. Maybe I'm just crazy.

My neighbors are elderly and they have a child with down syndrome. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to raise a child with special needs.

I'm still pro life however and I can only imagine that while it must be difficult, carrying out your duty to care for the child is a ticket to heaven.

(03-29-2016 03:48 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My wife is a shell of her former self. She made close to six figures and now can't hold down a part time job. It changes you.

No doubt. My brothers family was never really the same afterwards. The death of a child due to either disease or accident can destroy a family.

I have nothing but love for you here. I may disagree on this issue but you know where I am coming from.

(03-29-2016 03:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  My neighbors are elderly and they have a child with down syndrome. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to raise a child with special needs.

I'm still pro life however and I can only imagine that while it must be difficult, carrying out your duty to care for the child is a ticket to heaven.

I would guess if you asked them they'd probably say that they can't imagine life without their down's child and they wouldn't change how their life played out if they could. Most down's people live and give joy and happiness unconditionally.

For those of you who would consider aborting a Down's child, you should read the columns by Cincinnati author Paul Daugherty whose daughter Gillian is downs.

She went to college, she was a college basketball team manager, she has gotten married. Down's children are only a punishment if you view their disabilities not their abilities. So you'll argue she is highly functioning...sure she is...and you can't tell how highly functioning a down's kid can be from a chromosonal test.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/201.../70231160/

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/daughert.../29461207/

If you bother to read about her...
would you deny Gillian life because she isn't perfect?
Or maybe she is perfect just the way she is.

(03-29-2016 12:05 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 11:43 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 11:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  what do you have against people with down syndrome?


I don't. I just can't tell someone else how to live. It's the ultimate invasion of your privacy and rights. Can't square it. I can't.

Welcome to the world of eugenics, I guess.

You missed what I think is a key part of the article Mach..

Quote:a woman requests it because a fetus has Down syndrome or “any other disability.

Margaret Sanger would be so proud.
She loved her some genetic engineering.

BTW what if medicine can positively ID a "gay gene."
Will it be ok to abort a fetus with the gay gene?

The left would quickly move to pass a bill to protect those babies.

(03-29-2016 03:48 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  My wife is a shell of her former self. She made close to six figures and now can't hold down a part time job. It changes you.

for thine I pine....

I'm divorced and now rarely get to see my 16.8 yr old daughter.....and she was my shadow....

any way you cut it, it can become a crippler....

your stories are worthy in share...

your's are as admirable as they come....

(03-29-2016 04:20 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 03:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  My neighbors are elderly and they have a child with down syndrome. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to raise a child with special needs.

I'm still pro life however and I can only imagine that while it must be difficult, carrying out your duty to care for the child is a ticket to heaven.

I would guess if you asked them they'd probably say that they can't imagine life without their down's child and they wouldn't change how their life played out if they could. Most down's people live and give joy and happiness unconditionally.

For those of you who would consider aborting a Down's child, you should read the columns by Cincinnati author Paul Daugherty whose daughter Gillian is downs.

She went to college, she was a college basketball team manager, she has gotten married. Down's children are only a punishment if you view their disabilities not their abilities. So you'll argue she is highly functioning...sure she is...and you can't tell how highly functioning a down's kid can be from a chromosonal test.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/201.../70231160/

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/daughert.../29461207/

If you bother to read about her...
would you deny Gillian life because she isn't perfect?
Or maybe she is perfect just the way she is.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

(03-29-2016 01:11 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 01:09 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 11:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  what do you have against people with down syndrome?


I don't. I just can't tell someone else how to live. It's the ultimate invasion of your privacy and rights. Can't square it. I can't.

And, a pregnant woman should not be able to tell someone else how to die.

I'm sorry but there it is.

And isn't that what we are doing by having the death penalty?

If your going to be pro life, let's do it all the way and not just until the child is born.

Yes folks, fit drew a moral parallel between innocent unborn children with DS and convicted criminals on death row.

(03-29-2016 09:15 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 01:11 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 01:09 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 11:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  what do you have against people with down syndrome?


I don't. I just can't tell someone else how to live. It's the ultimate invasion of your privacy and rights. Can't square it. I can't.

And, a pregnant woman should not be able to tell someone else how to die.

I'm sorry but there it is.

And isn't that what we are doing by having the death penalty?

If your going to be pro life, let's do it all the way and not just until the child is born.

Yes folks, fit drew a moral parallel between innocent unborn children and criminals on death row.

I'm pro choice AND pro death penalty.....yeah, ponder that one as valid....

as a centrist, one has to toss out the water instead of looking at the 'baath'

(03-29-2016 12:13 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-29-2016 12:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I am with you on this one Mach. While I respect anyone that would keep one of these children...I would not want to do that and I can speak for my wife on this. She would not either. I oppose abortion if used as birth control and I do not want ANY of the fruits of my labor being used to finance it. I still believe though... it should be legal. Just don't ask me to participate.

I wouldn't want a child with down syndrome, but if that happened I would sure as hell be the best parent I could for the child. Down syndrome isn't the kids fault, the kid is still a human being, therefore I would be his or her parent to the best of my ability.

Sure...same here if there was no way to know in advance and end the pregnancy. Even then...It would be one hell of hard decision to make.