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Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 05:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:27 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  I don't think we are arguing with you about the corporate tax rate being a problem.

But that does not make competing with polluting, dumping, child laboring, currency manipulators that much easier.

We had a Wolverine World Wide shoe plant in Jonesboro. A whole lot of poor unskilled workers got jobs there, many minority, many older females, many of those in poor health. Those people now have very limited options for employment.

Those sorts of people need jobs too. Government charity is far more degrading and corrosive than even that sort of low-skill labor.

What do you do about those Americans? Plus you are importing even more unskilled labor across the border...what do you do with them?

Roofing, house painting, construction, hang dry wall, restaurant work (poor hispanics all over this) landscaping cutting grass, hotel work,
stuff like that.

I did all of the above prior to graduating from college also, including military service in the Army.

Yeah, I can see my friend's diabetic mother with the leg problems hanging drywall.

Today she would have to try to get on disability or welfare, back then she had a long career making shoes.

Maybe you can hire her?

Typical response. Let them eat cake.

There is this idea that those class of jobs are just not important.

They were very important to the people that had them.

Who is eating cake?
03-29-2016 05:07 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 05:07 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Roofing, house painting, construction, hang dry wall, restaurant work (poor hispanics all over this) landscaping cutting grass, hotel work,
stuff like that.

I did all of the above prior to graduating from college also, including military service in the Army.

Yeah, I can see my friend's diabetic mother with the leg problems hanging drywall.

Today she would have to try to get on disability or welfare, back then she had a long career making shoes.

Maybe you can hire her?

Typical response. Let them eat cake.

There is this idea that those class of jobs are just not important.

They were very important to the people that had them.

Who is eating cake?
You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.
03-29-2016 05:11 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:07 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Yeah, I can see my friend's diabetic mother with the leg problems hanging drywall.

Today she would have to try to get on disability or welfare, back then she had a long career making shoes.

Maybe you can hire her?

Typical response. Let them eat cake.

There is this idea that those class of jobs are just not important.

They were very important to the people that had them.

Who is eating cake?
You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.
03-29-2016 05:18 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:07 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 04:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Maybe you can hire her?

Typical response. Let them eat cake.

There is this idea that those class of jobs are just not important.

They were very important to the people that had them.

Who is eating cake?
You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.
03-29-2016 06:03 PM
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stinkfist Online
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Post: #45
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 11:08 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  At this point our trade deals are aimed at cost-reduction. It allows corporations to avoid things like labor laws, environmental regulations, minimum wages, mandatory healthcare, paid family leave, etc. and of course taxes.

The US can't compete with those cost reductions.

How that is fair trade is hard to compute.

It is more exploitation of foreign workers to avoid the cost of maintaining US workers standards of living.

that basically sums up why I had to leave corp 'murica.....I couldn't figure out anymore ways to do it as I became further burdened with more irrelevant tasks....

one can only pull the material out w/o increasing cost of production where the downward tick is the only option.....

disclaimer: I left when china was building at disproportionate rates....the biz I helped build and evolve is now a shell of itself....custom mfg has now left the cuntry.....

I hate it for 'em.....just had to wave buh-bye.....
03-29-2016 09:04 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 01:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Free trade is not what caused our manufacturing to take a hit. Companies were offshoring before NAFTA. And companies that went anywhere but Canada or Mexico didn't do it because of NAFTA. Same as with TPP now, we have hundreds of companies that have already moved there.

What caused our manufacturing to take a hit is that we had the highest costs, the highest taxes, and in many cases the most intrusive regulations in the world. Companies are moving, with or without free trade, because of those things. NAFTA may mean that a company moves from Ohio to Mexico instead of from Ohio to the Philippines, but it was never going to stay in Ohio because of those other factors.

OK, OK, I know I'll get the argument, don't look at our statutory tax rates, look at our effective rates. But why are the effective rates lower? Simple, because companies are moving operations to countries with lower corporate tax rates. I just took a look a the 30 companies that make up the Dow, thinking that was a representative sample of multinationals. For the 30 countries, the effective rate averages 27%, compared with the statutory rate of 35%. That's an 8% difference. To what is that attributable for the group as a whole? Cheaper foreign taxes 8%, everything else nets to 0%.

Exactly. This goes to my point that we should do everything we can to make America the place business runs toward..not runs away from. Regulations and taxes make up the biggest part of the problem.
03-29-2016 09:32 PM
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stinkfist Online
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Post: #47
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 09:32 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 01:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Free trade is not what caused our manufacturing to take a hit. Companies were offshoring before NAFTA. And companies that went anywhere but Canada or Mexico didn't do it because of NAFTA. Same as with TPP now, we have hundreds of companies that have already moved there.

What caused our manufacturing to take a hit is that we had the highest costs, the highest taxes, and in many cases the most intrusive regulations in the world. Companies are moving, with or without free trade, because of those things. NAFTA may mean that a company moves from Ohio to Mexico instead of from Ohio to the Philippines, but it was never going to stay in Ohio because of those other factors.

OK, OK, I know I'll get the argument, don't look at our statutory tax rates, look at our effective rates. But why are the effective rates lower? Simple, because companies are moving operations to countries with lower corporate tax rates. I just took a look a the 30 companies that make up the Dow, thinking that was a representative sample of multinationals. For the 30 countries, the effective rate averages 27%, compared with the statutory rate of 35%. That's an 8% difference. To what is that attributable for the group as a whole? Cheaper foreign taxes 8%, everything else nets to 0%.

Exactly. This goes to my point that we should do everything we can to make America the place business runs toward..not runs away from. Regulations and taxes make up the biggest part of the problem.

go a step further to a point owl and many of us have made many times....service industry is now more lucrative and the option that has to be viewed....we only care about dollars man....

is why I'm pulling for Trump to chop things up with the hope that yields a country that is more self dependent as it once was.....

btw, Kasich has dominated the political rhetoric tonight....he's the wild card I still think I've gotten right.....

I swear (both hands raised 03-wink ) I'm gonna file a civil suit for plagiarism against him and muh fox media....
03-29-2016 09:43 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 06:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:07 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Typical response. Let them eat cake.

There is this idea that those class of jobs are just not important.

They were very important to the people that had them.

Who is eating cake?
You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.

Moral of the story, mfg boots, shoes and thsirts in the usa, don't expect to have that job very long.
03-29-2016 10:33 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 10:33 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 06:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:07 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Who is eating cake?
You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.

Moral of the story, mfg boots, shoes and thsirts in the usa, don't expect to have that job very long.

Nobody was debating that. We were debating how that came to be and what its done to the country.

You've pretty much stopped even trying in this thread.
03-29-2016 10:47 PM
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stinkfist Online
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Post: #50
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 10:33 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 06:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:07 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Who is eating cake?
You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.

Moral of the story, mfg boots, shoes and thsirts in the usa, don't expect to have that job very long.

take it deeper into the realm of robotics.....apply to other industries and view from a continual population increase and infrastructure degradation....then think about welfare and stupid wars.....

yeah buggy....it's as fk'd up as I am 'right' now.....
03-29-2016 10:48 PM
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QuestionSocratic Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 10:48 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 10:33 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 06:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.

Moral of the story, mfg boots, shoes and thsirts in the usa, don't expect to have that job very long.

take it deeper into the realm of robotics.....apply to other industries and view from a continual population increase and infrastructure degradation....then think about welfare and stupid wars.....

yeah buggy....it's as fk'd up as I am 'right' now.....

http://csnbbs.com/thread-775900-post-131...id13154293
03-30-2016 08:00 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-29-2016 10:47 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 10:33 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 06:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:11 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  You're no longer debating, just kicking rocks now. Cheers.

You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.

Moral of the story, mfg boots, shoes and thsirts in the usa, don't expect to have that job very long.

Nobody was debating that. We were debating how that came to be and what its done to the country.

You've pretty much stopped even trying in this thread.


You were the first one to get off topic.
03-30-2016 08:06 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-30-2016 08:06 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 10:47 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 10:33 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 06:03 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 05:18 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  You jumped the shark with the diabetic crap. People in wheelchairs and with down syndrome have full time jobs. Why is it another's responsibility to provide this women with a job. You brought it up? Do something about it.

She got her own job, and kept it. Nobody got it for her or "provided" it for her. A job is not a handout.

The problem here is that they closed the factory down and moved it to another country because the lobbyists bribed congressmen to pass bad trade deals so they could cut costs and increase profits.....because the place they moved it to paid almost nothing and didn't have to worry about not polluting and providing healthcare and paid days off and that sort of thing.

Don't try to turn it around on the victim.

Moral of the story, mfg boots, shoes and thsirts in the usa, don't expect to have that job very long.

Nobody was debating that. We were debating how that came to be and what its done to the country.

You've pretty much stopped even trying in this thread.


You were the first one to get off topic.
"Maybe you can hire her" was where the thread devolved and was no longer serious. Now its just a meta-argument and a waste of time. Which I think is what you intended.
03-30-2016 08:23 AM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
Ark has made a very important point - we b!tch about the welfare folks a whole lot, and often rightly so, but where our government has FAILED miserably is in helping make doing business here as attractive as possible and protecting enough so that the playing field is a balanced as we can make it.

70% of Americans on average DO NOT get a college degree - if we want a working population, we have to have an economy that needs these folks as workers - and more importantly - it has to be in jobs that pay more than minimum (see food service and retail).

We have to make things that increase the value of something - not just provide services.

This alone is why I am so much against Hillary the criminal and Bernie the socialist because what they are "selling" will only make companies exit the US all the quicker......
03-30-2016 08:37 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #55
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
The field is tilted against us with virtually every country in the world. And we are the ones who have tilted against ourselves. Adding a consumption tax and reducing corporate tax rates to world class levels would not level the field with China. But it would level the field with most of the rest. And that's a huge step in the right direction.

China is a bit of a straw man here. There are those who don't support the policies that would level the field against most of the world, so they deflect the discussion to China to avoid discussing what we can and should do. Is a negative trade balance with China a problem? Yes, but it wouldn't be if we were trading at a surplus elsewhere. That's the problem we can fix. We can turn around our trade deficit with Europe without starvation wages or dirty air or dirty water or unsafe working conditions. And to answer the question asked above, that's where those middle class jobs come from.

As for the idea that we don't trade with anyone who doesn't play by the same rules we do, that means we can't trade with anyone who has a consumption tax or a 20% corporate tax rate. And that means we don't trade with anybody, like North Korea or 18th century Japan. Is that what we want? I think not, but you're entitled to your opinion.
03-30-2016 01:31 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
I have no problem importing Heineken, Fiat, Mercedes, Lindt, Guiness, Daihatsu, Sony, Suzuki, etc. Free trade of goods.

But we should not be importing Carrier, Maytag, GE, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, etc. then we freely traded our manufacturing base...not our goods.
03-30-2016 01:52 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-30-2016 01:52 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  I have no problem importing Heineken, Fiat, Mercedes, Lindt, Guiness, Daihatsu, Sony, Suzuki, etc. Free trade of goods.

But we should not be importing Carrier, Maytag, GE, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, etc. then we freely traded our manufacturing base...not our goods.

What's your solution then? You've done a lot of bitching and attacking others but yet to offer up a solution.
03-30-2016 02:00 PM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-30-2016 01:52 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  I have no problem importing Heineken, Fiat, Mercedes, Lindt, Guiness, Daihatsu, Sony, Suzuki, etc. Free trade of goods.

But we should not be importing Carrier, Maytag, GE, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, etc. then we freely traded our manufacturing base...not our goods.

Next man up theory. When those companies leave, we tax them to sell here and give breaks to American companies.
03-30-2016 02:13 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-30-2016 02:00 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-30-2016 01:52 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  I have no problem importing Heineken, Fiat, Mercedes, Lindt, Guiness, Daihatsu, Sony, Suzuki, etc. Free trade of goods.

But we should not be importing Carrier, Maytag, GE, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, etc. then we freely traded our manufacturing base...not our goods.

What's your solution then? You've done a lot of bitching and attacking others but yet to offer up a solution.

You haven't looked very hard.

MFN and free/preferential trade deals should only be for nations that share similar cost structures and regulatory regimes in terms of finance, environment, and labor. Our corporate taxes should be competitive. Currency manipulation, government subsidy, and dumping should result in loss of trade preference.

Decisions on those matters should also lie with United States regulators and not international bodies.

Immigration laws should be strictly enforced to stem the flow of unskilled labor that depresses prices for our unskilled laborers. H1B visas should be closely regulated to make sure they are being used to acquire needed talent rather than just for depressing skilled labor costs for corporations.

Laws should be changed to encourage repatriation of assets for investment instead of encouraging overseas silos.

Now whats your freaking solutions?
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2016 02:15 PM by ark30inf.)
03-30-2016 02:14 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Free Trade, Fair trade, don't care it has to collapse at some point.
(03-30-2016 01:52 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  I have no problem importing Heineken, Fiat, Mercedes, Lindt, Guiness, Daihatsu, Sony, Suzuki, etc. Free trade of goods.

But we should not be importing Carrier, Maytag, GE, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, etc. then we freely traded our manufacturing base...not our goods.

How do you do that without making Carrier, Maytag, et al, noncompetitive with Sony, Suzuki, et al? And if they are noncompetitive, how do they stay in business? And if they fail, what have you accomplished?
03-30-2016 04:08 PM
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