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Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
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ctipton Offline
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Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
*****

AS FOR MICK. . . He’s back, seemingly enthused about the future. It beats the alternative, I guess, but here’s the thing to remember through all the weirdness of last week: If UC fails at getting into a Power 5 league, who coaches the Bearcats doesn’t matter a lot.

The money won’t be there.

Money for facilities, money for recruiting. Money that would allow UC to keep up with the Joneses. And the Macks, Pitinos and Mattas, Caliparis and Creans.

Cronin is excited about the arena rewire, but that’s already been delayed a year, and while a spiffy gym might help woo a recruit or two, it’s not going to solve the money gap. Of this year’s Sweet 16, 14 came from P-5 conferences. The two outliers, Gonzaga and Villanova, came from basketball-only places, where the football monster doesn’t need feeding.

UC has the double whammy of being in the money-poor AAC, while also having to pay for football. And pay a lot, as part of its effort to win over the Big 12.

If I were to send an open letter to Mick, it might go like this.

Dear Mick:

Get in your vehicle and point it west.

Head into Midwestern cornfield nowhere. Seek out places where there’s a hoop at the end of the driveway, a little skewed from overuse, a board below the net, slanted so the ball bounces back toward the shooter. Think Blue Chips, Mick.

Knock on the door, grant-in-aid in hand.

Find one or two of these guys, players who win big stuffed bears on carnival midways, who spend their summers taking 500 shots a day after sneaking through the window at the junior high gym.

Have you seen who’s winning the Madness games? Oklahoma, North Carolina, Villanova. Big offenses. Teams that move the ball quickly, find open shots and make them. Not teams who are “tough.’’ Not necessarily teams who mention their great defense. Nope, teams that score.

I wrote this exact same rant three years ago, when Creighton beat UC in the first round because Doug McDermott made baskets that toughness couldn’t prevent. Is it a broad generalization? Of course, it is. But you gotta start somewhere.

Either that, or loosen the reins a little with the players you have.

*****

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../82337522/
 
03-28-2016 03:05 PM
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EcFlay Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 03:05 PM)ctipton Wrote:  Dear Mick:

Get in your vehicle and point it west.

Head into Midwestern cornfield nowhere. Seek out places where there’s a hoop at the end of the driveway, a little skewed from overuse, a board below the net, slanted so the ball bounces back toward the shooter. Think Blue Chips, Mick.

I wrote this exact same rant three years ago, when Creighton beat UC in the first round because Doug McDermott made baskets that toughness couldn’t prevent. Is it a broad generalization? Of course, it is. But you gotta start somewhere.

I guess we can put PDoc in the camp that says Mick needs to recruit more white players. 07-coffee3
 
03-28-2016 03:19 PM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 03:05 PM)ctipton Wrote:  
*****

AS FOR MICK. . . He’s back, seemingly enthused about the future. It beats the alternative, I guess, but here’s the thing to remember through all the weirdness of last week: If UC fails at getting into a Power 5 league, who coaches the Bearcats doesn’t matter a lot.

The money won’t be there.

Money for facilities, money for recruiting. Money that would allow UC to keep up with the Joneses. And the Macks, Pitinos and Mattas, Caliparis and Creans.

Cronin is excited about the arena rewire, but that’s already been delayed a year, and while a spiffy gym might help woo a recruit or two, it’s not going to solve the money gap. Of this year’s Sweet 16, 14 came from P-5 conferences. The two outliers, Gonzaga and Villanova, came from basketball-only places, where the football monster doesn’t need feeding.

UC has the double whammy of being in the money-poor AAC, while also having to pay for football. And pay a lot, as part of its effort to win over the Big 12.

If I were to send an open letter to Mick, it might go like this.

Dear Mick:

Get in your vehicle and point it west.

Head into Midwestern cornfield nowhere. Seek out places where there’s a hoop at the end of the driveway, a little skewed from overuse, a board below the net, slanted so the ball bounces back toward the shooter. Think Blue Chips, Mick.

Knock on the door, grant-in-aid in hand.

Find one or two of these guys, players who win big stuffed bears on carnival midways, who spend their summers taking 500 shots a day after sneaking through the window at the junior high gym.

Have you seen who’s winning the Madness games? Oklahoma, North Carolina, Villanova. Big offenses. Teams that move the ball quickly, find open shots and make them. Not teams who are “tough.’’ Not necessarily teams who mention their great defense. Nope, teams that score.

I wrote this exact same rant three years ago, when Creighton beat UC in the first round because Doug McDermott made baskets that toughness couldn’t prevent. Is it a broad generalization? Of course, it is. But you gotta start somewhere.

Either that, or loosen the reins a little with the players you have.

*****

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../82337522/

So Oklahoma is a team that wins with shooters, but Villanova and UNC really haven't been. UNC wins with guys that do everything but shoot the outside shot well. Villanova has been pretty even with UC this year as an outside shooting team, but they are much more efficient offensively. Pdoc's assessment of how teams are winning just isn't accurate, but I don't really think Pdoc knows too much about basketball.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2016 03:40 PM by bearcatmark.)
03-28-2016 03:39 PM
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QSECOFR Offline
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
Mark, you are 10% correct. PDoc knows almost nothing about basketball.
 
03-28-2016 03:49 PM
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ctipton Offline
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 03:49 PM)QSECOFR Wrote:  Mark, you are 10% correct. PDoc knows almost nothing about basketball.

10% ??
 
03-28-2016 03:57 PM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 03:39 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(03-28-2016 03:05 PM)ctipton Wrote:  
*****

AS FOR MICK. . . He’s back, seemingly enthused about the future. It beats the alternative, I guess, but here’s the thing to remember through all the weirdness of last week: If UC fails at getting into a Power 5 league, who coaches the Bearcats doesn’t matter a lot.

The money won’t be there.

Money for facilities, money for recruiting. Money that would allow UC to keep up with the Joneses. And the Macks, Pitinos and Mattas, Caliparis and Creans.

Cronin is excited about the arena rewire, but that’s already been delayed a year, and while a spiffy gym might help woo a recruit or two, it’s not going to solve the money gap. Of this year’s Sweet 16, 14 came from P-5 conferences. The two outliers, Gonzaga and Villanova, came from basketball-only places, where the football monster doesn’t need feeding.

UC has the double whammy of being in the money-poor AAC, while also having to pay for football. And pay a lot, as part of its effort to win over the Big 12.

If I were to send an open letter to Mick, it might go like this.

Dear Mick:

Get in your vehicle and point it west.

Head into Midwestern cornfield nowhere. Seek out places where there’s a hoop at the end of the driveway, a little skewed from overuse, a board below the net, slanted so the ball bounces back toward the shooter. Think Blue Chips, Mick.

Knock on the door, grant-in-aid in hand.

Find one or two of these guys, players who win big stuffed bears on carnival midways, who spend their summers taking 500 shots a day after sneaking through the window at the junior high gym.

Have you seen who’s winning the Madness games? Oklahoma, North Carolina, Villanova. Big offenses. Teams that move the ball quickly, find open shots and make them. Not teams who are “tough.’’ Not necessarily teams who mention their great defense. Nope, teams that score.

I wrote this exact same rant three years ago, when Creighton beat UC in the first round because Doug McDermott made baskets that toughness couldn’t prevent. Is it a broad generalization? Of course, it is. But you gotta start somewhere.

Either that, or loosen the reins a little with the players you have.

*****

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../82337522/

So Oklahoma is a team that wins with shooters, but Villanova and UNC really haven't been. UNC wins with guys that do everything but shoot the outside shot well. Villanova has been pretty even with UC this year as an outside shooting team, but they are much more efficient offensively. Pdoc's assessment of how teams are winning just isn't accurate, but I don't really think Pdoc knows too much about basketball.

Not about that. About getting into the offense much faster, not walking the ball up all of the time. There are games where UC not only has no fast break break points they have no fast break attempts. UC make other teams defend their offense for 1/2 of the shot clock and we let other teams get their defense set.

UNC did drop a bunch of 3's on IU BTW. But they are good at getting into the offense, interior passing, short jumpers open shots, and finishing on the glass.
 
03-28-2016 04:36 PM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
As always, PDoc is way too simplistic.

1) Yes, having some shooters would help a lot.

2) However, if you don't have anyone who can drive the ball to the hole, the other team will just man up on your shooters and take the open shots away.

3) If you just have guys who drive to the hole, the other team will fall back into a zone and stop the drive. So you need shooters. And even if you have the shooters, the other team will use big guys to block the shot and grab the rebounds. So you need big guys the guards can dish to who might also grab rebounds and carve out some space for the guards to drive through..

4) Of course, if the other team has a tough UC style defense, then it helps to have guys who know how to run a fast break and get to the basket before the defense sets up.

It is the teams who have the best combinations of all aspects of the game (and a coach that knows how to orchestrate it all) that wins the most.
 
03-28-2016 04:37 PM
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QSECOFR Offline
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 03:57 PM)ctipton Wrote:  
(03-28-2016 03:49 PM)QSECOFR Wrote:  Mark, you are 10% correct. PDoc knows almost nothing about basketball.

10% ??

Darn typos!!

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!

Sorry, Mark!
 
03-28-2016 04:46 PM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 04:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(03-28-2016 03:39 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(03-28-2016 03:05 PM)ctipton Wrote:  
*****

AS FOR MICK. . . He’s back, seemingly enthused about the future. It beats the alternative, I guess, but here’s the thing to remember through all the weirdness of last week: If UC fails at getting into a Power 5 league, who coaches the Bearcats doesn’t matter a lot.

The money won’t be there.

Money for facilities, money for recruiting. Money that would allow UC to keep up with the Joneses. And the Macks, Pitinos and Mattas, Caliparis and Creans.

Cronin is excited about the arena rewire, but that’s already been delayed a year, and while a spiffy gym might help woo a recruit or two, it’s not going to solve the money gap. Of this year’s Sweet 16, 14 came from P-5 conferences. The two outliers, Gonzaga and Villanova, came from basketball-only places, where the football monster doesn’t need feeding.

UC has the double whammy of being in the money-poor AAC, while also having to pay for football. And pay a lot, as part of its effort to win over the Big 12.

If I were to send an open letter to Mick, it might go like this.

Dear Mick:

Get in your vehicle and point it west.

Head into Midwestern cornfield nowhere. Seek out places where there’s a hoop at the end of the driveway, a little skewed from overuse, a board below the net, slanted so the ball bounces back toward the shooter. Think Blue Chips, Mick.

Knock on the door, grant-in-aid in hand.

Find one or two of these guys, players who win big stuffed bears on carnival midways, who spend their summers taking 500 shots a day after sneaking through the window at the junior high gym.

Have you seen who’s winning the Madness games? Oklahoma, North Carolina, Villanova. Big offenses. Teams that move the ball quickly, find open shots and make them. Not teams who are “tough.’’ Not necessarily teams who mention their great defense. Nope, teams that score.

I wrote this exact same rant three years ago, when Creighton beat UC in the first round because Doug McDermott made baskets that toughness couldn’t prevent. Is it a broad generalization? Of course, it is. But you gotta start somewhere.

Either that, or loosen the reins a little with the players you have.

*****

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../82337522/

So Oklahoma is a team that wins with shooters, but Villanova and UNC really haven't been. UNC wins with guys that do everything but shoot the outside shot well. Villanova has been pretty even with UC this year as an outside shooting team, but they are much more efficient offensively. Pdoc's assessment of how teams are winning just isn't accurate, but I don't really think Pdoc knows too much about basketball.

Not about that. About getting into the offense much faster, not walking the ball up all of the time. There are games where UC not only has no fast break break points they have no fast break attempts. UC make other teams defend their offense for 1/2 of the shot clock and we let other teams get their defense set.

UNC did drop a bunch of 3's on IU BTW. But they are good at getting into the offense, interior passing, short jumpers open shots, and finishing on the glass.

Agreed.

If you look at the top 4 3-point shooters on these teams (based on attempts taken).

UC had 1 player (Cobb) shoot over 40% from the floor (.403 overall).

Those other teams top 4 3-point attempt leaders AVERAGED over 40% from the floor for those 4 players.

Just for grins, Gonzaga's top 4 three point shooters (by attempts) all shot > 40% (.491 .475 .433 .436) from the floor overall.

No doubt UC plays hard, we need to find a way to get easier (or more open) shots in our offense.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2016 04:58 PM by Topkat.)
03-28-2016 04:56 PM
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CincyBro Offline
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
Yes, head NW up I-74, Jimmy Chitwood...err, Bobby Plump might know of a few shooters around who could help Mick.
 
03-28-2016 06:24 PM
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RealDeal Offline
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
Maybe people like PDoc who think we need to recruit less athletic people and better skills aren't going far enough. If athleticism doesn't matter why not recruit chicks? No other school is doing it so you should be able to get all kinds of incredible shooters.
 
03-28-2016 10:11 PM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
Well the last 4 recruiting classes have featured at least 1 shooter. KJ, Cobb, Evans, Cumberland. They've had varying amounts of success here, but I think Mick has already pushed in that direction.
 
03-29-2016 07:08 AM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
Agree Cheese. Evans and Cumberland can definitely shoot. And both are high level in terms of length and/or athleticism.

Cobb definitely had an extraordinary bag of tricks on the offensive end (actually underrated INSIDE the arc, with his floaters, etc.), but not quite enough size to deal with the higher level opponents on the schedule (which in our case, are no longer the majority, like in the BE). And his defense wasn't great. He was probably closer to "Chitwood" than anyone on our roster, but no one notices - GUESS WHY 03-lmfao

KJ shoots 3s OK, but it comes and goes. Plus his inside the arc game lacks. I think Troy is a better example of an offensively-oriented player in that class, as KJ's calling card is more along the lines of defense.

By the way, Doc - this just in - Clark hits threes at a pretty good clip himself 03-nerner
 
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2016 08:13 AM by Brian_Johnson.)
03-29-2016 08:12 AM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-29-2016 08:12 AM)Brian_Johnson Wrote:  He was probably closer to "Chitwood" than anyone on our roster, but no one notices - GUESS WHY 03-lmfao

Uh, he's not as tall as Chitwood?
 
03-29-2016 08:18 AM
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Re: RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-29-2016 08:12 AM)Brian_Johnson Wrote:  Agree Cheese. Evans and Cumberland can definitely shoot. And both are high level in terms of length and/or athleticism.

Cobb definitely had an extraordinary bag of tricks on the offensive end (actually underrated INSIDE the arc, with his floaters, etc.), but not quite enough size to deal with the higher level opponents on the schedule (which in our case, are no longer the majority, like in the BE). And his defense wasn't great. He was probably closer to "Chitwood" than anyone on our roster, but no one notices - GUESS WHY 03-lmfao

KJ shoots 3s OK, but it comes and goes. Plus his inside the arc game lacks. I think Troy is a better example of an offensively-oriented player in that class, as KJ's calling card is more along the lines of defense.

By the way, Doc - this just in - Clark hits threes at a pretty good clip himself 03-nerner

KJ is not a shooter. Go look at his high school 3-pt stats. And for his career at UC, he is under 33%.
 
03-29-2016 08:38 AM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-29-2016 08:38 AM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  KJ is not a shooter. Go look at his high school 3-pt stats. And for his career at UC, he is under 33%.

Not responding to you Robert. Just making a general comment.

How is a basketball player "not a shooter"? I mean, aren't there just two things you do in basketball, shoot and defend? Could you compare it to other sports? I mean, didn't these kids spend hours and hours practicing as children. I see a neighborhood kid, who by the way is playing varsity as a freshman, outside shooting for hours on end. I guess I just don't get it. Seems like shooting and defending is as fundamental to basketball as catching/throwing/batting is to baseball. What am I missing?
 
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
Our offense is the "Post Up"...the better teams move all 5,,and don't walk the ball down the court
 
03-29-2016 09:26 AM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-29-2016 08:48 AM)AeroCat Wrote:  
(03-29-2016 08:38 AM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  KJ is not a shooter. Go look at his high school 3-pt stats. And for his career at UC, he is under 33%.

Not responding to you Robert. Just making a general comment.

How is a basketball player "not a shooter"? I mean, aren't there just two things you do in basketball, shoot and defend? Could you compare it to other sports? I mean, didn't these kids spend hours and hours practicing as children. I see a neighborhood kid, who by the way is playing varsity as a freshman, outside shooting for hours on end. I guess I just don't get it. Seems like shooting and defending is as fundamental to basketball as catching/throwing/batting is to baseball. What am I missing?

Did you forget:
Rebounding
Passing
Ball handling
 
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-29-2016 09:26 AM)BearcatBeta Wrote:  Our offense is the "Post Up"...the better teams move all 5,,and don't walk the ball down the court

This isn't at all true. The best teams run a variety of offensive styles, sets and play at varying pace. There is no universal style or pace of play that makes teams good on offense. We've seen great offenses that walk the ball up the court, we've seen great offenses that run every time they can. We've seen bad offenses that do those things too. We've seen great offenses utilize the post up (watch UNC... they play very fast, but don't really move all 5 all over, it's a lot of post up) we've seen great offenses move everyone all over (sometimes at a slow pace, watch Wisconsin's swing offense a couple years ago).
 
03-29-2016 10:27 AM
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RE: Doc: Rating Reds and a letter to Mick Cronin
(03-28-2016 03:05 PM)ctipton Wrote:  
*****
Dear PDoc:

Head into Midwestern cornfield nowhere.

Signed,

The City of Cincinnati
*****

FIFY PDoc.
 
03-29-2016 12:48 PM
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