An honest question to ask...are we as fans and alumni having expectations for our basketball program higher than will ever be possible? Are we setting unrealistic expectations of deep runs in the NCAA tournament? Will we ever be able to recruit overall better talent that is obviously a necessary ingredient for winning in March in addition to top flight coaching? What can change, if anything moving forward? No doubt, there have been successful seasons over the past several decades but ultimately far more have ended in disappointment it seems. Here are some aspects of what the program has achieved since the start of the Bob Huggins era through this year (27 seasons):

NCAA Tourney:
1 FF
3 EE
5 SS
17 Round 32

Conference Tourney Champs:
2 GMWC
6 CUSA

Conference Championships:
2 GMWC
8 CUSA
1 AAC

If XU, who was in the MCC when I first moved to Cincy can come from that junk and do what they do and be where they are now, no reason we can't be greater.

No we suck. Just stop watching now and save yourself the heartache.

(03-19-2016 08:36 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  An honest question to ask...are we as fans and alumni having expectations for our basketball program higher than will ever be possible? Are we setting unrealistic expectations of deep runs in the NCAA tournament? Will we ever be able to recruit overall better talent that is obviously a necessary ingredient for winning in March in addition to top flight coaching? What can change, if anything moving forward? No doubt, there have been successful seasons over the past several decades but ultimately far more have ended in disappointment it seems. Here are some aspects of what the program has achieved since the start of the Bob Huggins era through this year (27 seasons):

NCAA Tourney:
1 FF
3 EE
5 SS
17 Round 32

Conference Tourney Champs:
2 GMWC
6 CUSA

Conference Championships:
2 GMWC
8 CUSA
1 AAC

I like our program in its current form in some ways better than the Huggins years. Huggins had some players that were very difficult to like; Dontonio Wingfield comes to mind. In addition, our teams under Huggins were not respected to the extent that we(Cincy fans) may believe. Many parts of the country thought of as an overrated early flameout in the tournament. Mick's players are better citizens and casts the university in better light.

On the other hand, He has not made a run yet and I am beginning to question his ability to substitute players effectively. He made the comment about winning basketball games and helping with homework. This concerned me. I hope that Mick has not lost his mojo after his medical issue.

Next year, we bring in several new players that should help immediately. Cincinnati should be predicted second in the conference behind UConn. It always helps to return a fourth year point guard, and Evans will be very good if he works on his shot. Of course, I would like to see us step up in conference profile that way we can get the dregs of this conference permanently off the schedule. No reason to play ECU et al except in the first six games of the year. It was brutal to have ecu two times in the last 3 weeks of the season.

As a city university, I think that we will always be able to recruit great basketball players. Even Coach Yates, who I admired as a person, not so much as a coach, did well on the recruiting trail. It is no secret that many great hoops players come from the inner city and prefer schools in the inner city. My concern for hoops is very limited. With the way our luck ran this year, I can see that we are due.

On a more serious note, our football coach is running the program into the ground. Under no circumstances should he last past this season. It will crush me, if there is an extension announced.

State of the program is good but not great. More consistent recruiting is separating us from greatness. I don't know if it's arena related or the conference turmoil but we haven't been able to get deep talented rosters. For example next year we have three all conference caliber players returning but we have no backups we know will contribute besides Cumberland. If we're going to take the next step it starts now with filling out next year's roster.

(03-19-2016 09:03 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Mick's players are better citizens and casts the university in better light.

Can we please stop saying this? I feel like some of you are daring the basketball Gods every time I see this posted.

There have been a couple minor problems here and there, but that's to be expected. Every college program is going to go through issues from time to time, it's about how you deal with it when they occur. You're dealing with young men, many of whom make mistakes, big and small.

(03-19-2016 09:49 AM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  

(03-19-2016 09:03 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Mick's players are better citizens and casts the university in better light.

Can we please stop saying this? I feel like some of you are daring the basketball Gods every time I see this posted.

There have been a couple minor problems here and there, but that's to be expected. Every college program is going to go through issues from time to time, it's about how you deal with it when they occur. You're dealing with young men, many of whom make mistakes, big and small.

If you are going to compare the Huggins regime with the Mick regime, it must be stated. It is a point of contention with many alumni. Quite frankly, some of the Huggins projects were hardened criminals not doe eyed young men. We recruited one player out of the pokey in Kansas and another player abducted his roommate tied him up and wanted to set fire to him.

Now I am sure that we have a few mischievous players on the team, and we remember the Ellis situation, but overall Mick does a better job on the character question.

I always hate when our own fans talk about "Huggins Criminals" ignoring the vast majority of the good kids that came through this program for a decade and half. Can we stop with that please?

I posted this on the AAC board but I figured I would post it here as well:

I've never seen a team lose like UC lost this year. 6 losses by 2 points, 1 by 4 points. 1 OT loss, 1 double OT loss, 1 quadruple OT loss.

Lost in OT on game where other team hit an 80 foot shot to end the half.

Lost in four OTs on a game where a team hit a 60 foot shot to end the 3rd OT.

Lost because our dunk occurred .1 seconds too late. (Ellis was also fouled but that will almost never get called there).

Every close game they played the other team seemed to make every big shot down the stretch. I've just never seen a season like this one. Brutal.

6 NCAAs in 6 years in nothing to scoff at and only 9 schools have done that currently. While I'd like better results, it hasn't happened, but we have competed hard every year and not like we were a 3 seed or a 2 seed getting upset. We've had to battle good teams and have done just that. We are a handful of possessions from being a top 10 team this year with 4-5 losses. Honestly I would argue we outplayed our opponents in all but the Xavier, 1st Temple, 2nd Memphis and 2nd Houston game. We had some unbelievably bad luck, but also we put ourselves in those positions and a few plays earlier and we win. Hopefully the players and coaches learned from their mistakes and continue to improve.

I think the offense was definitely better and while it may not be free flowing like some teams, we had 2 good bigs to try and get the ball inside to, which limits some of the motion you can run. Do you want those guys running all over the court on offense and wearing each other out. The offense was best when we went inside out. The passing to the post was better this year, but still needs to improve. Still think the offense needs to improve of course, but they are learning and we have good pieces back. Keep working hard and show some improvement and they could take a bigger leap next season.

The defense continues to be top notched, though this year we were killed by 3 pointers, often by guys that were horrid shooters, though good looks do help (Though I can count a ton of bad shooters drilling well defended 3s too). That should remain our identity and unfortunately that will keep you out of the homes of some elite players who don't want to play defense. But we have been seeing a little higher end recruits of late (Clark, Evans Cumberland) and hopefully we can get into the Big 12 which would help. The AAC while not a bad conference, does hold that back some. I know the Gonzagas and Wichita States overcome that, but Gonzaga is a west coast power and Wichita State has had a few elite players help build the program and get a deep run. That is really what we need is to get a break or two and get to an Elite 8 or Final 4 (Which opened the door for Huggs back in the day as well). Many of those runs are aided by upsets, which we haven't seen of late (Not like XU who never faces a higher seed it seems and when they do, they lose). Again this season they get an over-seeded Wisonsin team (Whose resume was worse than ours I'd argue) and then another upset aided matchup. I do think Mick can get us there. The Gates team that fell to O$U was close. This team had the potential, but didn't live up to it. Next years team is definitely capable, especially if we can add a graduate transfer or two to add some depth or we see some of the bench guys step it up.

Serious question to those that want Mick gone. Who are we going to get and do you want to run the risk of getting a bust and being relegated to the NIT or worse?

We are in the AAC, so the next coach could be a stepping stone guy. How many stepping stone guys have failed? More than succeed. Just look at all the hot names that moved to bigger jobs and then 3-4 years later are fired as they failed and set the program back. I do think the history of the program would help us attract a better up and comer, but some will still look and say, I'd rather go to a P5 conference than the AAC. So you may have a better chance of getting a bust. Then the program is set back 5+ years again and we are rebuilding, not quite like what Mick went through, but would you rather miss the NCAA and have no chance or keep making it and have a chance, expecting improvement each season as Mick learns from mistakes. Also, if you were a coach looking for a job, how would you feel about taking a job whose coach has been to 6 straight NCAA games and was fired? Many candidates would see that as a no win situation and probably would say thanks, but no thanks.

Is Mick perfect? Heck no, but he has succeeded. The offense needs to keep improving, which hopefully will be aided by recruiting and player development (Which has also been a bit of a disappointment). I know we were spoiled for years, but I also know a lot of people talked about getting rid of Huggs because he couldn't get out of the 1st weekend after his first few years, most with the benefit of a much higher seed. Yes he was winning championships, though he also didn't have to endure the rigors of the Big East, not to mention UC was the big dog in C-USA and GMC, while we are battling with UConn (Who won a national title from AAC). We have won one AAC title in 3 attempts and I would argue we will be close to a favorite next year with UConn. We are trending up I believe and hope the trend continues and maybe we can have a season where the breaks finally fall our way). Go Bearcats!

I think the "bar" for success has been set by the administration at this:
-FB, ***Make*** a bowl
-(Men's) BB, ***Get an invitation*** to the NCAA tournament
-(Women's) BB... Field a team

So, yeah success.

(03-19-2016 10:45 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I always hate when our own fans talk about "Huggins Criminals" ignoring the vast majority of the good kids that came through this program for a decade and half. Can we stop with that please?

I posted this on the AAC board but I figured I would post it here as well:

I've never seen a team lose like UC lost this year. 6 losses by 2 points, 1 by 4 points. 1 OT loss, 1 double OT loss, 1 quadruple OT loss.

Lost in OT on game where other team hit an 80 foot shot to end the half.

Lost in four OTs on a game where a team hit a 60 foot shot to end the 3rd OT.

Lost because our dunk occurred .1 seconds too late. (Ellis was also fouled but that will almost never get called there).

Every close game they played the other team seemed to make every big shot down the stretch. I've just never seen a season like this one. Brutal.

No, I am not going to ignore the perception and reality that Mick recruits (in many peoples opinion) a better student athlete. The question asked to address the state of the program. Words do have meaning, and a higher percentage of Huggins recruited players had issues with the felonious behavior (criminals).

So you should be ok with this proviso which is obvious to most people. Even though the majority of the basketball team are law abiding students, Huggins took chances on some hardened "flowery word that you choose." It appears that Mick has not taken the same chances. This is not to besmirch every player in the Cincinnati basketball system between the years 1988-2005. However, Mick runs a cleaner program.

Being perceived as the #2 program in the city is not satisfactory, and we should not allow the administration to believe otherwise.

Having slept on it. I am at peace, glad it's over. Feel bad for the players but what a complete waste of a season.

I think what held this team back was the fact that our seniors who played the most (Ellis, DeBerry, Cobb) all transferred in and weren't 4 years guys so none really felt completely comfortable taking ownership of this team in the locker room, practice, and off the court. Idk. That's how I'm explaining it.

Mick is a great guidance counselor, is that the argument we are making here?

And has the hardened criminal basketball player diminished across the country as a whole over the years or just at UC?

Lance wasn't exactly seen across the nation as a saint.

(03-19-2016 10:45 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I always hate when our own fans talk about "Huggins Criminals" ignoring the vast majority of the good kids that came through this program for a decade and half. Can we stop with that please?

I posted this on the AAC board but I figured I would post it here as well:

I've never seen a team lose like UC lost this year. 6 losses by 2 points, 1 by 4 points. 1 OT loss, 1 double OT loss, 1 quadruple OT loss.

Lost in OT on game where other team hit an 80 foot shot to end the half.

Lost in four OTs on a game where a team hit a 60 foot shot to end the 3rd OT.

Lost because our dunk occurred .1 seconds too late. (Ellis was also fouled but that will almost never get called there).

Every close game they played the other team seemed to make every big shot down the stretch. I've just never seen a season like this one. Brutal.

These are my thoughts too. Battling back last night without Clark, I thought they'd finally get a break. That game was a crystallization of the entire year.

Positives going forward. Certainly Jacob Evans shows the potential to be the greatest Bearcat star since Kenyon. Looking forward to Washington in the middle; always was very uneasy on what to expect out of Ellis because of his temperament. Clark like Evans has All-American potential; sky is the limit for this team if they develop their talents to their fullest possibility. There is a basketball IQ disconnect with Quadri Moore; I am not really confident it will ever come on but the raw talent is there. The guard position is the real question mark going forward. Hope Troy's game keeps progressing for a great senior year and doesn't greatly disappoint like Ellis did this year. How quickly Cumberland adapts to the college game is a question mark. I think he will be a great Bearcat but I am not looking for him to have the immediate success like Evans did as a freshman. I think we really need to add a solid JC or senior transfer scoring guard to up the potential for a great season next year.

(03-19-2016 11:25 AM)rosewater Wrote:  No, I am not going to ignore the perception and reality that Mick recruits (in many peoples opinion) a better student athlete. The question asked to address the state of the program. Words do have meaning, and a higher percentage of Huggins recruited players had issues with the felonious behavior (criminals).

So you should be ok with this proviso which is obvious to most people. Even though the majority of the basketball team are law abiding students, Huggins took chances on some hardened "flowery word that you choose." It appears that Mick has not taken the same chances. This is not to besmirch every player in the Cincinnati basketball system between the years 1988-2005. However, Mick runs a cleaner program.

You're comparing vastly different situations though. Look how far the campus and University has come in the past 20 years. It's an incredible transformation.

Young people screw up. It happens at Cincinnati, Duke and everywhere in between.

As a contributing factor, Huggins had nearly no academic standards to recruit to. Not even the NCAA minimums. Non qualifiers and JUCOS were what originally got UC's bad image rolling. When the annual summer arrest reports rolled in it was just gas on the flames.

Due to the BE standards, Mick has been forced to recruit kids above the NCAA minimums since day one. Guarantee there are kids he'd like to have brought in that he was not allowed to.

(03-19-2016 12:26 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  

(03-19-2016 11:25 AM)rosewater Wrote:  No, I am not going to ignore the perception and reality that Mick recruits (in many peoples opinion) a better student athlete. The question asked to address the state of the program. Words do have meaning, and a higher percentage of Huggins recruited players had issues with the felonious behavior (criminals).

So you should be ok with this proviso which is obvious to most people. Even though the majority of the basketball team are law abiding students, Huggins took chances on some hardened "flowery word that you choose." It appears that Mick has not taken the same chances. This is not to besmirch every player in the Cincinnati basketball system between the years 1988-2005. However, Mick runs a cleaner program.

You're comparing vastly different situations though. Look how far the campus and University has come in the past 20 years. It's an incredible transformation.

Young people screw up. It happens at Cincinnati, Duke and everywhere in between.

Yes, we have had a transformation, and have put away the bad image. I also agree that young people screw up, for instance the Ellis situation. But the problems we have now or the problems at Duke are far different than some of our earlier issues.

(03-19-2016 12:40 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  As a contributing factor, Huggins had nearly no academic standards to recruit to. Not even the NCAA minimums. Non qualifiers and JUCOS were what originally got UC's bad image rolling. When the annual summer arrest reports rolled in it was just gas on the flames.

Due to the BE standards, Mick has been forced to recruit kids above the NCAA minimums since day one. Guarantee there are kids he'd like to have brought in that he was not allowed to.

I would agree with everything here. I was addressing the state of the UC program today. I think our image is considerably better. Whether Mick would follow in Bob's footsteps, I do not know.