(03-07-2016 07:43 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I find it hard to believe that UConn and Cincy were asked or even considered. Not as long as they continued with the FBS FB. It doesn't make sense, why would the c7 plus these 2, "leave" the BE to form a "new" conference? They already were a conference. Why would 9 of the remaining 10 old BE schools leave and end up giving USF all the $$? the other new schools were on their way. CUSA already had replacements planned. Tulane etc weren't going back.
UConn and Cincy were actively campaigning to get out of the BE, why would that change if they ended up being the only 2 FB schools in a new conference? They both would be out the door at the first chance they got

So you mean never?

It's quite clear that we're not going to get any "chance" to move for at least the next decade. Not first, second, or last. The P5 are set for the long haul unless an AAC school or CSU forces their way in by going all Boise for a decade.

Just so I am clear , you are saying a school with four men's NC's and a ton of women's NC's and a school like Cinci were never desired or inquired about by an all BB league . Sounds like B.S. to me.

I can see the New Big East inquiring about UConn and Cincinnati, absolutely. They would've been the best two left from the old set up in basketball.

I think the MAC may have taken their football. Not out of the realm of possibility, but the AAC is pretty much the best of the rest so the only option was to stick it out with status quo.

(03-08-2016 06:59 AM)FUB Wrote:  Just so I am clear , you are saying a school with four men's NC's and a ton of women's NC's and a school like Cinci were never desired or inquired about by an all BB league . Sounds like B.S. to me.

More exactly, a school with 4 mens' NCs and 30 years of league history with PRovidence, St Johns, Villanova, Seton Hall and Georgetown.

I'm sure that, probably over drinks, someone with juice at UConn talked to someone with juice at one of the old Big East Catholics schools. And I'm sure they discussed the most important issue of the day.

In that conversation, I'm sure that UConn got a sense that the C7 wanted to be done with FBS, but it would be hard not to make an exception for UConn if UConn asked. And the C7 got a sense that UConn was committed to FBS, and had to do what they had to do to try for P5 status.

(03-08-2016 08:24 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-08-2016 06:59 AM)FUB Wrote:  Just so I am clear , you are saying a school with four men's NC's and a ton of women's NC's and a school like Cinci were never desired or inquired about by an all BB league . Sounds like B.S. to me.

More exactly, a school with 4 mens' NCs and 30 years of league history with PRovidence, St Johns, Villanova, Seton Hall and Georgetown.

I'm sure that, probably over drinks, someone with juice at UConn talked to someone with juice at one of the old Big East Catholics schools. And I'm sure they discussed the most important issue of the day.

In that conversation, I'm sure that UConn got a sense that the C7 wanted to be done with FBS, but it would be hard not to make an exception for UConn if UConn asked. And the C7 got a sense that UConn was committed to FBS, and had to do what they had to do to try for P5 status.

That's how I think it happened as well: The C7 would have loved to continue their/our affiliation with UConn, as UConn had been a basketball partner since the inception of the Big East.

But UConn declined because of their desire to keep basketball and football in the same league.

[ObligatoryUconnTrolling] UConn belongs in the MAC anyhow! [/ObligatoryUconnTrolling]

(03-08-2016 08:10 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I think the MAC may have taken their football. Not out of the realm of possibility, but the AAC is pretty much the best of the rest so the only option was to stick it out with status quo.

If that was the case, they would be in the same situation that UMass Football would be in now. The exact same thing would have happened....

(03-08-2016 08:41 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2016 08:24 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-08-2016 06:59 AM)FUB Wrote:  Just so I am clear , you are saying a school with four men's NC's and a ton of women's NC's and a school like Cinci were never desired or inquired about by an all BB league . Sounds like B.S. to me.

More exactly, a school with 4 mens' NCs and 30 years of league history with PRovidence, St Johns, Villanova, Seton Hall and Georgetown.

I'm sure that, probably over drinks, someone with juice at UConn talked to someone with juice at one of the old Big East Catholics schools. And I'm sure they discussed the most important issue of the day.

In that conversation, I'm sure that UConn got a sense that the C7 wanted to be done with FBS, but it would be hard not to make an exception for UConn if UConn asked. And the C7 got a sense that UConn was committed to FBS, and had to do what they had to do to try for P5 status.

That's how I think it happened as well: The C7 would have loved to continue their/our affiliation with UConn, as UConn had been a basketball partner since the inception of the Big East.

But UConn declined because of their desire to keep basketball and football in the same league.

Agreed that it's probably how it happened.

However, I still think that UConn made a mistake to think this way. Being in the same conference for both sports is only beneficial if it's a top conference.

Imagine if Rutgers, WVU, or Virginia Tech had turned down the Big East's football-only invite in the 90s? This is similar foolishness, particularly when you consider that MWC+UConn+UC would be at least the equal of the remaining AAC in football.

Even if UConn/Cincinnati had made a special agreement with the C7 to remain in the Big East, it would not have changed either school's desire to be in the ACC/B1G/Big 12. That is both program's end goal. From the C7 perspective, everyone was tired of being in a conference where every football school didn't want to be there - and was openly campaigning about making a move to a different conference. Adding UConn/UC certainly wouldn't have changed that, and it would have most certainly only added to continuous realignment rumors - much like the AAC now experiences constantly.

Being in a "best of the rest" of conference certainly has its advantages - but it comes with the great cost of being associated with schools that all have no interest in being in that conference long term. Is it good for the member schools? Absolutely - you're next in line to get into the party. Is it good for the conference? I'd say no, since there's only so many defections a conference can handle before it breaks a part or is watered down.

(03-08-2016 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Even if UConn/Cincinnati had made a special agreement with the C7 to remain in the Big East, it would not have changed either school's desire to be in the ACC/B1G/Big 12. That is both program's end goal. From the C7 perspective, everyone was tired of being in a conference where every football school didn't want to be there - and was openly campaigning about making a move to a different conference. Adding UConn/UC certainly wouldn't have changed that, and it would have most certainly only added to continuous realignment rumors - much like the AAC now experiences constantly.

Being in a "best of the rest" of conference certainly has its advantages - but it comes with the great cost of being associated with schools that all have no interest in being in that conference long term. Is it good for the member schools? Absolutely - you're next in line to get into the party. Is it good for the conference? I'd say no, since there's only so many defections a conference can handle before it breaks a part or is watered down.

EXACTLY.

Unless UConn was going to give up football and P5 dreams (which they would have been foolish to do), the C7 actually did NOT want UConn to come along. This is one of those situations where it didn't (and continues to not) make sense for either party outside of pure on-the-court basketball wishes (which, for better or worse, simply aren't much of a consideration in conference realignment). The C7 were looking for stability first and foremost - from a pure basketball standpoint, staying with UConn and Cincinnati along with schools like Memphis and SMU would have created a good-to-great league, but that wasn't the issue for the C7 at all. It was about controlling their own destiny and membership, which is what they have now with the new Big East.

(03-08-2016 02:54 PM)lance99 Wrote:  

(03-08-2016 08:10 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I think the MAC may have taken their football. Not out of the realm of possibility, but the AAC is pretty much the best of the rest so the only option was to stick it out with status quo.

If that was the case, they would be in the same situation that UMass Football would be in now. The exact same thing would have happened....

Probably not. The contract with the MAC guaranteed perpetual football-only membership provided there were two football-only members the MAC wanted, for even divisions. UConn in that hypothetical scenario would have taken Temple's spot, and UMass would still have its spot. (It would not have been a Temple-UConn combo because Temple joined the Big East before the Big East broke up.)

(03-08-2016 07:55 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  

(03-08-2016 02:54 PM)lance99 Wrote:  

(03-08-2016 08:10 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I think the MAC may have taken their football. Not out of the realm of possibility, but the AAC is pretty much the best of the rest so the only option was to stick it out with status quo.

If that was the case, they would be in the same situation that UMass Football would be in now. The exact same thing would have happened....

Probably not. The contract with the MAC guaranteed perpetual football-only membership provided there were two football-only members the MAC wanted, for even divisions. UConn in that hypothetical scenario would have taken Temple's spot, and UMass would still have its spot. (It would not have been a Temple-UConn combo because Temple joined the Big East before the Big East broke up.)

That could have been a coup for the MAC. UConn, Cincy, Temple and UMass for FB only really would have been a shot in the arm for that conference.

(03-07-2016 05:52 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  UConn in the Mountain West...Jesus this board has gone full retard...

And football drives the bus. UC and UConn both realized that... And the viewership that the 'new' big east is getting is vastly under what they expected. I'm sure saying that will set the Big East fans ablaze here... but it's true. To some extent, even the C7 benefited from the exposure the conference as a whole received during Football season, and from playing the FB-BB stars like UC and Uconn.

That said, I think the C7 are happy, and I know the AAC is happy with their initial successes... so I guess everyone wins.

(03-09-2016 11:01 AM)Bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2016 05:52 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  UConn in the Mountain West...Jesus this board has gone full retard...

And football drives the bus. UC and UConn both realized that... And the viewership that the 'new' big east is getting is vastly under what they expected. I'm sure saying that will set the Big East fans ablaze here... but it's true. To some extent, even the C7 benefited from the exposure the conference as a whole received during Football season, and from playing the FB-BB stars like UC and Uconn.

That said, I think the C7 are happy, and I know the AAC is happy with their initial successes... so I guess everyone wins.

The American is happy so far, in the first three years football has won a New Years Six bowl and a BCS bowl (2 out of 3), in basketball won a National Championship in the first year (the only problem with basketball is not having more teams in the tournament and making it into the Elite Eight or Final Four which needs to be done in order for the American to stay at top in basketball.

The American dominates women basketball just because we have UConn so that's nice constant national champions....

Baseball has done ok would be nice to get a team to Omaha soon though. Hosting regionals and super regionals is great but not as great has getting to Omaha.

(03-09-2016 11:01 AM)Bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2016 05:52 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  UConn in the Mountain West...Jesus this board has gone full retard...

And football drives the bus. UC and UConn both realized that... And the viewership that the 'new' big east is getting is vastly under what they expected. I'm sure saying that will set the Big East fans ablaze here... but it's true. To some extent, even the C7 benefited from the exposure the conference as a whole received during Football season, and from playing the FB-BB stars like UC and Uconn.

That said, I think the C7 are happy, and I know the AAC is happy with their initial successes... so I guess everyone wins.

Big East viewership has risen each year they have been on FS1. The reason is because the problem isn't the Big East but rather the FS1. As the channel grows so will the numbers.

Also compare some of the other leagues numbers on FS1 and you will see that BE is beating them significantly. Looking at you PAC12.

(03-09-2016 11:01 AM)Bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2016 05:52 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  UConn in the Mountain West...Jesus this board has gone full retard...

And football drives the bus. UC and UConn both realized that... And the viewership that the 'new' big east is getting is vastly under what they expected. I'm sure saying that will set the Big East fans ablaze here... but it's true. To some extent, even the C7 benefited from the exposure the conference as a whole received during Football season, and from playing the FB-BB stars like UC and Uconn.

That said, I think the C7 are happy, and I know the AAC is happy with their initial successes... so I guess everyone wins.

I think people need to but the "football drives the bus" comments into context. If you're one of the handful of schools that have the opportunity to join a P5 league, then yes, football HAS to drive the bus at your school. There's no question about that.

However, if you're a school that does not have a reasonable chance at a P5 invite, then it's a different equation altogether. The C7 didn't get ANY exposure from being in the Big East during football season. It's not like Georgetown basketball was being talked about during an October football game between USF and Cincinnati. If anything, it was a negative because Big East football was constantly getting bashed from September through December, whereas it had a pristine reputation for basketball. The main positive from the Big East association was being able to play certain big-time basketball brand names themselves (i.e. Syracuse, Louisville, UConn, etc.). Once all of these schools (sans UConn and Cincinnati) left, then pretty much any type of partnership with football schools became COMPLETELY worthless.

I'm not quite exactly sure what people expected the C7 to do. I keep hearing, "The C7 stopped football expansion for the Big East and that's why it collapsed!" That is complete B.S. The Big East could have added 10 more football teams (take your pick)... and Miami would have still left for the ACC... and every single freaking school that got invited to a different power conference would have left IMMEDIATELY. I've said this before and I'll say it again: Big East football was ALWAYS going to die. Miami was ALWAYS going to take an invite from the ACC - to Miami, getting an invite from the ACC was the equivalent of Rutgers wanting an invite from the Big Ten. Once Miami left, EVERYONE was going to leave if possible. No amount of revisionist history or actions that the Big East basketball schools could have taken would have changed that fact.

At the same time, the C7 still are getting paid more TV money for just basketball than the AAC and all of the G5 schools are getting for all sports. The AAC and other G5 fans can point to all of the ratings or exposure metrics that they want, but on the business end, the C7 still got paid in a way that the AAC didn't (and probably will never) get paid. That shows that basketball CAN make money if you have a strong brand name product in large markets.

Reflexively saying that "football drives the bus" is like saying "every store should be like Wal-Mart and Target". Well, there are only so many big box retailers that can survive in this world... and there are also only going to be so many power conference teams in this world. If you try to be Wal- Mart when you don't have Wal-Mart finances, then you're going to go broke pretty quickly. If you can find a lucrative niche, though, that can be profitable. If the Big Ten is Target and the SEC is Wal-Mart, then the Big East is like Kohl's (where it's purposely NOT trying to be all things to all people, but it's making money focusing on what it's good at doing). The G5 conferences feel more like Sears - they're products of a bygone era where they can't really compete with the powerful big-box stores on pricing and can't make profits like the more nimble Kohl's-like stores. They are stuck because they can't figure out an identity.

Now, once again, if you're a school like UConn, Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, UCF, USF, etc., then you HAVE to go all-in because you're THISCLOSE to P5 membership. I'm not saying that those schools should have acted differently, either. It's just that there's no question in my mind that the C7 made the right choice to split off and form the new Big East. Within the Big East's market (non-FBS Division I conferences), they are at the VERY top with poaching power over everyone else. Indeed, every non-FBS Division I school would take a Big East invite immediately, which is something that you couldn't even say about the Big Ten and SEC with respect to FBS schools.

As always, Frank - you are 100% spot on.

Bravo!

Everyone made the right choice. If you miss playing someone, schedule them regularly OOC. Problem solved.

(03-09-2016 04:37 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-09-2016 11:01 AM)Bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2016 05:52 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  UConn in the Mountain West...Jesus this board has gone full retard...

And football drives the bus. UC and UConn both realized that... And the viewership that the 'new' big east is getting is vastly under what they expected. I'm sure saying that will set the Big East fans ablaze here... but it's true. To some extent, even the C7 benefited from the exposure the conference as a whole received during Football season, and from playing the FB-BB stars like UC and Uconn.

That said, I think the C7 are happy, and I know the AAC is happy with their initial successes... so I guess everyone wins.

I think people need to but the "football drives the bus" comments into context. If you're one of the handful of schools that have the opportunity to join a P5 league, then yes, football HAS to drive the bus at your school. There's no question about that.

However, if you're a school that does not have a reasonable chance at a P5 invite, then it's a different equation altogether. The C7 didn't get ANY exposure from being in the Big East during football season. It's not like Georgetown basketball was being talked about during an October football game between USF and Cincinnati. If anything, it was a negative because Big East football was constantly getting bashed from September through December, whereas it had a pristine reputation for basketball. The main positive from the Big East association was being able to play certain big-time basketball brand names themselves (i.e. Syracuse, Louisville, UConn, etc.). Once all of these schools (sans UConn and Cincinnati) left, then pretty much any type of partnership with football schools became COMPLETELY worthless.

I'm not quite exactly sure what people expected the C7 to do. I keep hearing, "The C7 stopped football expansion for the Big East and that's why it collapsed!" That is complete B.S. The Big East could have added 10 more football teams (take your pick)... and Miami would have still left for the ACC... and every single freaking school that got invited to a different power conference would have left IMMEDIATELY. I've said this before and I'll say it again: Big East football was ALWAYS going to die. Miami was ALWAYS going to take an invite from the ACC - to Miami, getting an invite from the ACC was the equivalent of Rutgers wanting an invite from the Big Ten. Once Miami left, EVERYONE was going to leave if possible. No amount of revisionist history or actions that the Big East basketball schools could have taken would have changed that fact.

At the same time, the C7 still are getting paid more TV money for just basketball than the AAC and all of the G5 schools are getting for all sports. The AAC and other G5 fans can point to all of the ratings or exposure metrics that they want, but on the business end, the C7 still got paid in a way that the AAC didn't (and probably will never) get paid. That shows that basketball CAN make money if you have a strong brand name product in large markets.

Reflexively saying that "football drives the bus" is like saying "every store should be like Wal-Mart and Target". Well, there are only so many big box retailers that can survive in this world... and there are also only going to be so many power conference teams in this world. If you try to be Wal- Mart when you don't have Wal-Mart finances, then you're going to go broke pretty quickly. If you can find a lucrative niche, though, that can be profitable. If the Big Ten is Target and the SEC is Wal-Mart, then the Big East is like Kohl's (where it's purposely NOT trying to be all things to all people, but it's making money focusing on what it's good at doing). The G5 conferences feel more like Sears - they're products of a bygone era where they can't really compete with the powerful big-box stores on pricing and can't make profits like the more nimble Kohl's-like stores. They are stuck because they can't figure out an identity.

Now, once again, if you're a school like UConn, Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, UCF, USF, etc., then you HAVE to go all-in because you're THISCLOSE to P5 membership. I'm not saying that those schools should have acted differently, either. It's just that there's no question in my mind that the C7 made the right choice to split off and form the new Big East. Within the Big East's market (non-FBS Division I conferences), they are at the VERY top with poaching power over everyone else. Indeed, every non-FBS Division I school would take a Big East invite immediately, which is something that you couldn't even say about the Big Ten and SEC with respect to FBS schools.

I largely agree with you but do think that if the C7 would have allowed the FB schools to add more all sports members earlier, it would have been better for whatever was left behind assuming the C7 split from the old BE was inevitable. A few extra years of being in a BCS conference could have helped develop schools like Memphis, Houston, Temple, and UCF even more than they have already progressed in the AAC. Also, TCU may have actually played a down in the conference had it moved to expand FB membership earlier.

I guess the FB schools could have added FB only members, but logistically that is messy for those schools, but I'm sure they would have taken the invite to what was then a BCS conference.