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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #1
NAIA - Questions
1. Who are the big conferences (i.e. the NAIA equal to the SEC)
2. Who are the big schools (i.e. the NAIA equal to Texas)
3. Who are the big football programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to Alabama)
4. Who are the big basketball programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to UNC)
02-12-2016 05:01 PM
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SeaBlue Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-12-2016 05:01 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. Who are the big conferences (i.e. the NAIA equal to the SEC)
2. Who are the big schools (i.e. the NAIA equal to Texas)
3. Who are the big football programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to Alabama)
4. Who are the big basketball programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to UNC)

I don't think there are. Marian out of Indianapolis just won the football championship, to not much local fanfare. They also won it 4 years ago and made it to the championship 2 years ago.

Sustaining a winning tradition with $$ is probably more expensive than it's worth.

Also, some conferences have restrictions on athletic scholarships. For the most part NAIA schools have less than 5,000 students.

Fort Hays state out of Kansas got really good at basketball back in the day, and they moved up to NCAA DII. Not sure how common that is, but I think if a school wants to focus on sports they generally move up to DII.

Oh... I see now... I didn't recognize the sarcasm font :)
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2016 06:42 PM by SeaBlue.)
02-12-2016 06:05 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
Carroll, Montana is the Alabama of football in the NAIA. They are likely to move to GNAC in D2 soon.

Several NAIA are announcing or are thinking of going to D2.

Davenport
Georgetown, KY.
Cumberlands, KY.

All three have a standing invite to join a D2 conference. Davenport just recently join the NAIA last year, and would be starting football in 2016.
02-12-2016 08:42 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
http://www.wkyt.com/content/sports/Mid-S...56841.html

Mid-South and Sun Conference to form a super conference for football. This would 20 teams in 3 divisions.
02-12-2016 08:49 PM
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MJG Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-12-2016 08:49 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  http://www.wkyt.com/content/sports/Mid-S...56841.html

Mid-South and Sun Conference to form a super conference for football. This would 20 teams in 3 divisions.

How long before it becomes FBS?

Just kidding I wish NAIA was more of a rival to the NCAA.
02-12-2016 10:04 PM
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C2__ Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-12-2016 08:42 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Carroll, Montana is the Alabama of football in the NAIA. They are likely to move to GNAC in D2 soon.

Several NAIA are announcing or are thinking of going to D2.

Davenport
Georgetown, KY.
Cumberlands, KY.

All three have a standing invite to join a D2 conference. Davenport just recently join the NAIA last year, and would be starting football in 2016.

Georgetown, KY nearly beat Pitt...after their run under Howland started.
02-12-2016 10:12 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-12-2016 10:12 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(02-12-2016 08:42 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Carroll, Montana is the Alabama of football in the NAIA. They are likely to move to GNAC in D2 soon.

Several NAIA are announcing or are thinking of going to D2.

Davenport
Georgetown, KY.
Cumberlands, KY.

All three have a standing invite to join a D2 conference. Davenport just recently join the NAIA last year, and would be starting football in 2016.

Georgetown, KY nearly beat Pitt...after their run under Howland started.


Before the divisions of NCAA to the three divisions? I saw somewhere that Georgetown, KY was considered a D1 program in the NCAA. This was more back in the 1940s.
02-12-2016 11:43 PM
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C2__ Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
No, I mean about a decade ago, Georgetown nearly won at Pitt. Some people were confused and assumed it meant that it was the Hoyas but it was the NAIA KY team.
02-13-2016 05:18 AM
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jdgaucho Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
No folks, UC Merced is not leaving the NAIA ranks for Division 1
02-13-2016 02:44 PM
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3BNole Online
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RE: NAIA - Questions
Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever gone to an NAIA sporting event? I've seen FSU play a couple of NAIA schools in preseason basketball games, but most of my experience has come with Thomas University which is a small school in Thomasville, GA about 30 min north of Tallahassee. Being a sports nut and a big college baseball fan, I've gone to several of their baseball games over the years. I even had the opportunity to go to an NAIA baseball regional they hosted one year which featured Talladega College (from Alabama), the University of Houston at Victoria (from Texas), and Cal State San Marcos.

Here's my local perspective on what NAIA competition is like:

First off TU plays its games at a baseball field near a community park off campus without any permanent stands or bleachers. The games are decently attended with maybe 100 fans, but my suspicion is that most people even in the small town of Thomasville don't even know they play sports. Nevertheless, the games are fun to go to, and they play several games each season against nearby NCAA D2 schools like Valdosta State, Albany State, and Georgia Southwestern.

In an age where most people don't even know that almost all major universities used to have JV sports, TU still has a JV baseball team. I'm not sure how many games they play and I've never watched them play, but I do know that they have games against some of the area community colleges.

TU just started a basketball team about 2-3 years ago and they play in an old middle school gymnasium that the university bought off campus. From pictures I've seen it looks like they renovated it nicely, but it's really small. I've wanted to go to a game, but even for a crazy sports fan like me who would drive to Tennessee for a high school football game, I haven't had enough motivation to do it yet.

The local news stations in Tallahassee, which also cover South Georgia, hardly know that TU exists. Once in a blue moon there will be some general story about the school or one of the sports teams, but it's extremely rare. A couple times a week they do sports stories about Valdosta State which is almost 2 hours away. You're lucky if you hear anything about Thomas University in an entire year even though it's just up the road. I've never seen a local station post any of their scores.

I like to know as much as I can about sports, even small school organizations like the NAIA, USCAA, or NCCAA, but it's difficult even for someone that interested to get a good gauge on the national landscape of those leagues because the media coverage is so minimal. As far as powerhouses go in various NAIA sports, the only dynasty I can tell you about is the Lewis-Clark State College baseball program which has some ridiculous number of national championships (something like 20 or so). Of course, the catch is that they host the NAIA college world series annually and have a permanent spot in the world series each year. Nevertheless, that one program is a bit of an anomaly as they've also had over 100 players drafted, have great facilities, and routinely draw thousands of fans to their games.

Finally, on a side note, I'm really interested to see those developments with the Sun Conference with regards to football. TU joined the Sun Conference a couple years ago, but without any real local media coverage here I didn't even know about that. I can say that there has been talk at Thomas about starting football sometime, at least a couple years ago when I talked some with the Athletic Director. I have no idea what the status of that is, but I do wish they'd start a team because there are locally a lot of talented players who don't get signed to major programs and I'd love to go see a few NAIA football games to see what those are like. Maybe things will start to materialize with this new development.
02-13-2016 03:12 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
USCAA are mostly made up of 2 year community colleges which is why any games against those teams do not count toward the stats and w/l record. Only exceptions are the Alfred State, The Apprentices, Andrews, Concordia-Alabama, University of Dallas, Iowa Wesleyan, Robert Morris-Illinois (Springfield), St. Mary of the Woods, SUNY Canton, SUNY Delhi, Washington Adventist and West Virginia Tech. They all are a member of NAIA or the NCAA D3 levels as well. Most of the others are Junior colleges.

Morthland have joined the NCCAA lately. They used to be USCAA as well.

Robert Morris-Peoria looks like they will start playing in the USCAA in football this fall. They were a club team.

NCCAA is made up of the smaller religious schools that are part of the NAIA, USCAA and the NCAA.

The ASCAA seems to be made up of schools that are mostly scams that misleads young kids into thinking they will play bigger teams. The College of Faith-West Memphis coach was promising the kids and told people on the Voy forum and other boards that they will play FBS schools to compete for the national title. A lot of kids fell for it, and they wound up losing in blow out fashion.
02-13-2016 04:01 PM
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C2__ Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
I've been to a Houston Baptist game when they were NAIA (and good for that level). My middle school had a bigger gym than them.
02-13-2016 05:29 PM
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LUSportsFan Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-13-2016 05:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I've been to a Houston Baptist game when they were NAIA (and good for that level). My middle school had a bigger gym than them.

HBU still plays in the same gym (capacity of 1,000 for basketball). Things might be changing, though. The campus master plan includes building a 5,000 seat basketball/multipurpose arena. The arena will be part of the planned campus expansion out to the 59 Freeway on land the university already owns.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2016 07:40 PM by LUSportsFan.)
02-13-2016 07:39 PM
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C2__ Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
In all seriousness, they may as well play at a local high school, there's plenty in that area of Houston. Better than building from scratch.
02-13-2016 11:31 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
I know Faulkner and AUM are in the NAIA. That's about the extent of my knowledge.

One of my best friends ran track for HBU.
02-14-2016 04:15 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #16
RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-12-2016 05:01 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. Who are the big conferences (i.e. the NAIA equal to the SEC)
2. Who are the big schools (i.e. the NAIA equal to Texas)
3. Who are the big football programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to Alabama)
4. Who are the big basketball programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to UNC)

1. Pioneer and MSFA-Midwest.

2. Big schools (Top 6):
Schools with football:
Central Methodist Univ. Fayette, MO (enrollment 5,812)
Saint Xavier Univ. Chicago, IL (enrollment 5,678)
Robert Morris Univ. Chicago, IL (enrollment 4,500)
S. Oregon Univ. Ashland, OR (enrollment 3,585)
St. Ambrose Univ. Davenport, IA (enrollment 3,402)
E. Oregon Univ. La Grande, OR (enrollment 3,348)

Schools without football:
Bellevue Univ. Bellevue, NE (enrollment 7,792)
Univ of California - Merced Merced, CA (enrollment 6,000)
Dalton St. Univ. Dalton, GA (enrollment 5,485)

3. Carroll College and Marian (Ind).

4. NAIA has 2 divisions for basketball.
For D2: Oregon Tech has been a big program for quite some time.
For D1: not sure.
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2016 09:34 PM by MWC Tex.)
02-14-2016 05:24 PM
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-14-2016 05:24 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(02-12-2016 05:01 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. Who are the big conferences (i.e. the NAIA equal to the SEC)
2. Who are the big schools (i.e. the NAIA equal to Texas)
3. Who are the big football programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to Alabama)
4. Who are the big basketball programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to UNC)

1. Pioneer and MSFA-Midwest.

2. Big schools (Top 6):
Schools with football:
Central Methodist Univ. Fayette, MO (enrollment 5,812)
Saint Xavier Univ. Chicago, IL (enrollment 5,678)
Robert Morris Univ. Chicago, IL (enrollment 4,500)
S. Oregon Univ. Ashland, OR (enrollment 3,585)
St. Ambrose Univ. Davenport, IA (enrollment 3,402)
E. Oregon Univ. La Grande, OR (enrollment 3,348)

Schools without football:
Bellevue Univ. Bellevue, NE (enrollment 7,792)
Univ of California - Merced Merced, CA (enrollment 6,000)
Central Methodist Unv. (see above)
Saint Xavier (see above)
Dalton St. Univ. Dalton, GA (enrollment 5,485)

3. Carroll College and Marian (Ind).

4. NAIA has 2 divisions for basketball.
For D2: Oregon Tech has been a big program for quite some time.
For D1: not sure.

Central Methodist has football.
02-14-2016 05:48 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-14-2016 05:48 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(02-14-2016 05:24 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(02-12-2016 05:01 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. Who are the big conferences (i.e. the NAIA equal to the SEC)
2. Who are the big schools (i.e. the NAIA equal to Texas)
3. Who are the big football programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to Alabama)
4. Who are the big basketball programs (i.e. the NAIA equal to UNC)

1. Pioneer and MSFA-Midwest.

2. Big schools (Top 6):
Schools with football:
Central Methodist Univ. Fayette, MO (enrollment 5,812)
Saint Xavier Univ. Chicago, IL (enrollment 5,678)
Robert Morris Univ. Chicago, IL (enrollment 4,500)
S. Oregon Univ. Ashland, OR (enrollment 3,585)
St. Ambrose Univ. Davenport, IA (enrollment 3,402)
E. Oregon Univ. La Grande, OR (enrollment 3,348)

Schools without football:
Bellevue Univ. Bellevue, NE (enrollment 7,792)
Univ of California - Merced Merced, CA (enrollment 6,000)
Central Methodist Unv. (see above)
Saint Xavier (see above)
Dalton St. Univ. Dalton, GA (enrollment 5,485)

3. Carroll College and Marian (Ind).

4. NAIA has 2 divisions for basketball.
For D2: Oregon Tech has been a big program for quite some time.
For D1: not sure.

Central Methodist has football.
I was on different thought process. Thanks, I have edit it above.
02-14-2016 09:35 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: NAIA - Questions
(02-14-2016 04:15 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I know Faulkner and AUM are in the NAIA. That's about the extent of my knowledge.

One of my best friends ran track for HBU.

Are you talking about Auburn-Montgomery? They are transitioning to NCAA D2. They got accepted last year. So they are re-classifying right now.
02-15-2016 02:37 AM
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RE: NAIA - Questions
Hi. Just found this thread. Knowledge of the NAIA seems to me low here so I thought I'd join and contribute.

I run a website called Victory Sports Network that focuses on NAIA athletics. http://victorysportsnetwork.com.

A bit of overview before I try to answer questions posed here....

The NAIA is an athletics association that was started in the 1930's by James Naismith as the first National College Basketball Tournament in Kansas City, and then became the National Association for Intercollegiate Basketball within a couple of years. It's focus was small college basketball. It expanded into other sports in the early '50s and became the NAIA. It's focus has always been small colleges.

Today, the NAIA remains focused on small colleges. There isn't an official limit, but it's rare for a member institution to have more than 6,000 students, and the biggest is University of British Columbia at 44,000 (playing baseball and softball only) and that's MUCH bigger than the next biggest. As the target is small schools, the emphasis is on running a high quality program affordably. I'm told the rulebook is less than an inch thick. This allows schools to spend on students rather than large coaching and admin staffs. There's around 240 member schools. The majority are private and religious, but there aren't rules about that. There are a number of "directional" public schools in the Indiana University, University of Montana, University of Oregon and Louisiana State systems.

As far as quality of play, I would say it's roughly equal to NCAA D2 - depending on the sport. My favorite description is this: take all NCAA D1, D2 and D3 schools and throw them all together in a bowl; take out the best 200 to leave around 850 schools; randomly select from that 240 of them. You would have a reasonable representation of the quality of play in the NAIA. Except for basketball, the NAIA is divisionless; in basketball, there is DI (11 scholarships) and DII (6 scholarships). The differences in sports, compared with D2, come down to scholarships. D2 allows more scholarships in football, so it tends to be better there. NAIA Marian beat D2 Indianapolis this year, both had good (or better) years this year, so it's a good comparison. The NAIA allows more scholarships in NAIA DI basketball (11) so it's slightly better than D2. There is recent history of several NCAA D2 champions being beaten in the early season by NAIA DI teams that were good but not great (by NAIA standards). There is recent history of NAIA schools beating bad NCAA D1's as well. In the other sports I would say they are about even. D2 has more consistency top to bottom; in addition to maximum scholarships, there are also minimums. The NAIA has no minimums so there are some really poor teams, particularly at schools having financial difficulties. But, that's also a selling point of the NAIA: If you are a small school, you can adapt quickly to changing environments without reclassifying or changing conferences. Perhaps the biggest difference is that many NAIA schools are "mission driven" and make sports a part of that mission, developing leadership programs, mentorships with coaches and character building. A very recent article is relevant:
http://m.newsok.com/article/5481258
The NAIA has many recruiting advantages as well, such as year 'round recruiting, less strict international player rules, not counting honors students against scholarship restrictions, not having an "anti-home schooling" rule, easy transfer rules (no sitting out), etc.

Now, to your questions:

1. Who are the big conferences? (I assume you mean "good" instead of "big")
Since only 85 or so schools have football, the football conferences are different in some cases than the other sports. The best football conferences are the Frontier (Montana/Oregon), Mid-States (great lakes area), Heart of America, and Mid-South. For basketball, there are two divisions. The best DI basketball divisions are the Golden State (California), Heart, Mid-South, and Sooner conferences. For DII, it's the Wolverine/Hoosier, Chicagoland, Great Plains and Cascade conferences.

2. Who are the big schools?
Again, depends on sport. Many of the best basketball schools don't have football. Many football schools fund football at the expense of other sports. Some schools have 20+ sports, as they draw tuition paying students. But when a school becomes dominant in the NAIA (see Learfield Director's Cup), that's when they tend to move to the NCAA (most recently Oklahoma Baptist or Azusa Pacific). But currently those with strong overall athletic programs are Lindsey Wilson (KY), OKlahoma City, Biola (CA), Wayland Baptist (TX), Southern Oregon, Olivet Nazarene, Westmont College (CA), Lewis-Clark State (ID), Morningside (IA), Grand View (IA), Keiser (formerly Northwood) (FL) and Carroll College (MT). Depending on year, of course :)

3. Who are the big football programs?
Carroll College is the long term dynasty, although 2015 was an off year for them. Marian and Southern Oregon were in the last two championships. Morningside too (their RB from 2 years ago made the Panther's team - Brandon Wehger). And there are a large number of teams that are always tough, and contending for long post season runs.

4. Who are the big basketball programs?
For DI, Georgetown College, Oklahoma City, Biola, Westmont, Campbellsville (KY), MidAmerica Nazarene (KS) come to mind. There's been a lot of NCAA attrition from DI in the past 10 years. For DII, Keiser (nee Northwood, coached by Rollie Massimino), Indiana Wesleyan, College of the Ozarks, Bethel (IN), Robert Morris (IL), College of Idaho, Oregon Tech.

A note about the basketball tournaments, DI & DII, men's & women's. They are the greatest show on earth, nothing like them anywhere. All 32 teams converge on a single location. 31 games, 7 days, all on one court. As a fan, there's nothing better. The athleticism is high, you see all different styles of play and strategy, and you get to see every game, every round, and watch the progression from first round to Championship from the same seat. There are Kansas City locals who have been attending the Men's DI championship for decades that don't even have any connection to a particular school. Municipal Auditorium in downtown KC was built for this tournament back in the '30's.

In considering "big/good", you have to recognize how quickly things can change at the non-elite level. There is TONS of talent available at the level just below "starter for a Big 5 conference team". If a school wants to get good quickly, they can, by hiring a great coach and fully funding their scholarships. This is true if both NAIA and NCAA D2. And go the other way just as quickly. Witness last year's NAIA DI national champion, Dalton State (GA). They won the championship in their first year of eligibility. They hired Tony Ingle as coach, built a great facility, and Ingle used his long contact network to recruit some great players. They had a whole year to play together before they were post-season eligible. On the other hand you have Robert Morris (IL) who was consistently a top rated DI team for years. They stepped down to DII a few years ago, and haven't been as dominant for some reason. Not sure why. Located in downtown Chicago, and the same coach. DII allows only 6 scholarships, but all his competition have the same restriction.

Now to address some of your other comments:

"Sustaining a winning tradition with $$ is probably more expensive than it's worth.". It's not the money, it's the competition. As I said, there's tons of talent just below the elite level. Not possible to monopolize it, and great coaches tend to get "better" offers. You try and get the players who would rather play NAIA than sit on the bench at a D1, or win at an great NAIA rather than lose at a bad D1. Look at the overall athletics programs of some of these schools. 20+ sport programs cost a lot, but they bring in a lot of tuition paying students.

"Not sure how common that is, but I think if a school wants to focus on sports they generally move up to DII.". There's no tangible benefit to going D2, unless your geography (scheduling) is advantageous or offer sports the NAIA doesn't support. Or you're already spending D2 level money. It's far more expensive, you don't get more media coverage, game attendance isn't higher, enrollment doesn't seem to increase. In fact, in most cases you tend to lose more games, because most try and keep costs down. Typically, those that transition are already very good, they stay good in D2 for 5 years or so, and then they tail off competitively because they have to follow the same ridiculous rules (appropriate for elite big money athletics, but not for others) the other D2's have to follow. The most tangible benefit I see is for the department professionals, who are suddenly stamped with the NCAA seal of approval and they go off and get higher paying jobs. In many circumstances, going NCAA is a professional advancement or ego thing.

"Several NAIA are announcing or are thinking of going to D2. Davenport Georgetown, KY. Cumberlands, KY."
Yes on Davenport (and Purdue Calumet and Biola) but it appears NO on Georgetown and Cumberland (TN). Cumberlands KY never considered AFAIK. Georgetown & Cumberland applied but were denied. Georgetown has financial issues and Cumberland had organizational issues of some sort. Both are now turned off by the NCAA, and some similar schools that moved (in the G-MAC) haven't worked out so well. I hear rumors of a small wave of D2s ready to move back to the NAIA.

"Georgetown, KY nearly beat Pitt...after their run under Howland started.", yep, Georgetown (and some other Mid-south teams) are famous for getting legit D1 transfers from the likes of Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis. You would think that they would dominate in the NAIA, but they don't (although they are quite good). The NAIA plays different basketball than in the "big dance". Very team oriented, many defensively oriented. Maybe like how they played in the NBA in the Bob Cousy & Jerry West eras. Fundamentals beat talent on a regular basis. There was a school called Mountain State (now defunct) that would load up on D1 transfers and international players, be ranked #1 all season, and regularly get bounced out on the 1st & 2nd rounds. Fun to watch. But mid/upper level D1's wouldn't touch them or others like Georgetown, because if they did things like the Pitt game would happen and that would be embarrassing.

"Thomas University which is a small school in Thomasville, GA" yes many programs have minimal facilities or share with other schools. Cost effectiveness, as I said. Many old line D2 and D3 schools have poor facilities too. Speaking of baseball in your region, St Thomas (FL) just gave Miami a run for it's money:
http://www.victorysportsnetwork.com/Clip...lassic.htm

Hope this helps. Anyone can PM me if they have questions, I won't hang out much here other than subscribe to threads I've commented on.
03-02-2016 05:59 PM
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