(02-11-2016 10:32 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 10:01 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 09:53 AM)gsu95 Wrote:  Just curious what your favorite memory of being in the womb is.

One could also ask what one's favorite memory of being a 1-year-old is as well.

(02-11-2016 09:53 AM)gsu95 Wrote:  Nobody I know in pro life movement is an advocate of murder, or of abortion being anything other than what it is, which is an act most of us would find to be a last resort. That said, everybody I know in pro life movement believes a woman has a right to control her own body, up to and including the right not to have a child.

To me, the hypocrisy on this issue is firmly on the side of those who preach limited government out of one side of their mouth while wanting that same government to restrict a woman's right to choose.

Among those with limited government stances, the belief is that the individual rights of the yet-to-be-born child is being violated. So there's no paradox here.

From my personal POV: I'm willingly pro-choice for the first trimester, but even that makes me squeamish when the fetus' brain waves, nervous system and heartbeat start kicking in around weeks 8-9(?).

Beyond that, as far as later term abortions, I'd be find with it banned. I honestly don't understand the mindset of anyone who's seen an ultrasound of a second- or third-trimester and conclude that it's as inanimate an object as the keyboard I'm typing on now. When I saw my son in the 20-week, I saw my son. Not a lifeless blob. I'm surprised that those who'd call themselves 'bleeding hearts' wouldn't feel the same. [/mini soapbox]

the entire topic is an emotional issue due to the nature of life that has the largest brain and how it behaves in a specific environment

however it gets chopped up (pardon the pun), there are only two things to consider from a logical perspective....

1. qty of humans relative to the dirt mechanism that supports it...what is that ceiling?

2. the economic structure to effectively maintain the whole....what is best method?

IMO, the neatest thing about studying humanity is how the control mechanisms have developed over time....

just like the bibble being written in various ways....it's just another sequence of life attempting to survive....

logic is the one those in control have always feared....it gets funererererer watching those that believe they can continue to control as we breathe today's air....

I think you're a Malthusian.

(02-11-2016 09:37 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 06:23 PM)Max Power Wrote:  cuts in food stamps and Medicaid

Bro, you don't get moral credit for advocating money being forced out of people's paychecks by the threat of the IRS, their henchmen, and a prison sentence to fund inefficient and mistreated government initiatives. No, that is simply lazy, self-righteous bullying. You cannot force money out of people's paychecks at gunpoint and claim moral superiority.

Without programs like these, people will starve and die. Alright? Private charity cannot fill the void. That's why the government got involved in the first place.

They're in place and taking them away will kill people. That's your case for moral superiority? So Donald Trump can buy another yacht?

(02-11-2016 11:11 AM)Max Power Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 09:37 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-10-2016 06:23 PM)Max Power Wrote:  cuts in food stamps and Medicaid

Bro, you don't get moral credit for advocating money being forced out of people's paychecks by the threat of the IRS, their henchmen, and a prison sentence to fund inefficient and mistreated government initiatives. No, that is simply lazy, self-righteous bullying. You cannot force money out of people's paychecks at gunpoint and claim moral superiority.

Without programs like these, people will starve and die.

STAHP with this terrible, worn out attempt at tugging heart strings.

(02-11-2016 10:31 AM)gsu95 Wrote:  Ah, nice.

Do you believe all human life is sacred? If so, can/do you support war? What about the death penalty? What about the right to die?

Put the broad brush away...

1 - War - A just war is a just war. I'm pretty sure, in the long run, taking Hitler down saved lives. That being said War should be a very last resort and we have lowered the bar on what constitutes military action over the past 50 years or so.

2 - Death Penalty - While I don't think it is morally wrong to execute some people if their crimes call out for blood I am against the Death penalty because we have shown that we are not capable of using it judiciously enough.

3 - Right to die - While I believe it is a sin for someone to end their lives I do not think it should be illegal.

Quote:When does someone's life become "not sacred" for you? When it's poor and needs help feeding itself? When it worships a different religion? Holds different views about politics? Illegally enters the country? Commits a crime? Goes to jail?

When the take the life of another out of pure, unjust, malice. Murder.

1 - No I don't think poor people should be killed
2 - No I don't think people of a different religion should be killed
3 - No I don't think democrats should be killed (they are so child like)
4 - No I don't think illegals should be killed

Quote:No accusations there, simple questions.

Those are meant as "are you a pig fracker" type questions.

Quote:Government is a series of choices. Always has been, always will be. I just happen to think those who preach that we should choose greater individual liberty and smaller government should not want to limit a woman's right to control her own body and force her to have a child she may not be physically, mentally or financially capable of caring for.

That a bullshaq line. *NOBODY* is for forcing women to have kids. That's a kin to me saying you're for running around forcing women to have abortions. It's pure shaq.

What I said was you and I disagree on when human life begins. For shaq's sake I never even said anything like "all life is sacred"... I said in quite a reasonable way "we disagree on when life begins" and you tried to turn that into "why do you hate brown, non christian, non Americans".

If she is not physically, mentally or financially capable of caring for the human being in her womb then there is always adoption. I am the son of someone who was adopted and I know *a lot* of kids around my Children who were adopted.

Quote:Ultimately, I believe it's a woman's choice. If that's obtuse and ignorant in your obviously superior eyes, then so be it.

You're obtuse because you mutilate someone's point of view when it's fairly straight forward. When someone else believes it's a *human being* is it not perfectly reasonable to say a limited government still has a place protecting it's life?

(02-11-2016 11:11 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Without programs like these, people will starve and die. Alright? Private charity cannot fill the void. That's why the government got involved in the first place.

They're in place and taking them away will kill people. That's your case for moral superiority? So Donald Trump can buy another yacht?

Liberals seem to be positively certain that America is denied its utopian economic and social ideal because racist, bigoted, heartless, fascist, science-hating, children-starving, healthcare-denying, equality-condemning, welfare-challenging conservatives didn’t just stand aside and let Democrats do everything they want without interference.

(02-11-2016 12:17 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 11:11 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Without programs like these, people will starve and die. Alright? Private charity cannot fill the void. That's why the government got involved in the first place.

They're in place and taking them away will kill people. That's your case for moral superiority? So Donald Trump can buy another yacht?

Liberals seem to be positively certain that America is denied its utopian economic and social ideal because racist, bigoted, heartless, fascist, science-hating, children-starving, healthcare-denying, equality-condemning, welfare-challenging conservatives didn’t just stand aside and let Democrats do everything they want without interference.

Yep - which is confiscate everyone's money and put it into the giant, benevolent government kitty for those all knowing in the government to siphon off 80+% of that kitty money into "overhead".

The amount of waste, mismanagement and administrative costs that occurs in virtually every large government program is mind boggling and begs the question of "Why should we pour more money into a system that shows itself incapable basic stewardship?". See the VA scandal for a typical example.

Why liberals like Max, RedTom, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

The only thing the Federal government does is take care of itself while doling out just enough crumbs to the masses to keep them from rioting while enriching themselves.

I hear all this "corporate greed" being spewed out, what do they think the Pelosi's and McConnell's of the government do for themselves???

If someone gets an abortion, they immediately become pro-choice or pro abortion because they chose to have the operation.

In today's world your choice is between keeping all your money but not being allowed to do anything with it or being free to do anything you wish while the government keeps your money.

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

May be, but they have to cover their eyes and ears at all times so they don't see or hear the constant revelation of waste, corruption, and mismanagement their noble government gets fingered for almost daily.

I guess since their champions "say they care" and "feel their pain", that's all that matters. I mean, who cares about results when we are talking about feelings?????

(02-11-2016 12:17 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 11:11 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Without programs like these, people will starve and die. Alright? Private charity cannot fill the void. That's why the government got involved in the first place.

They're in place and taking them away will kill people. That's your case for moral superiority? So Donald Trump can buy another yacht?

Liberals seem to be positively certain that America is denied its utopian economic and social ideal because racist, bigoted, heartless, fascist, science-hating, children-starving, healthcare-denying, equality-condemning, welfare-challenging conservatives didn’t just stand aside and let Democrats do everything they want without interference.

I am 100% certain of this. I look no further than the Civil War and the 37th Congress. Pacific Railway Act, Homestead Act, Morill Land Grant Colleges, National Banking Act, establishment of a Progressive Tax structure, False Claims Act, first use of the income tax, paper money, Established the department of Agriculture...

That congress is what built the modern US and there are only a handful of congresses that can match the impact that the 37th congress had. And it all happened because Southerners left their seats empty to start a rebellion giving the North very little opposition to enact their legislative agenda.

Without a doubt the conservatives need a good a** whopping every once in a while so that they can catch up with the rest of society. It's 2016 and today I saw a news story about a Mississippi assemblyman trying to put creationism in schools, it took us way too long to get gay marriage and there's still the whole issue of protected class status, in regards to executions were something like 15th in the world even on per-capita which looks really bad when #1 to #14 are the last countries we should be trying to compare ourselves to. Our education rankings are terrible, the gerrymandering issue is at an all time low and is only going to get worst with our regression on voting rights while it looks apparent that developed nations are moving closer to the more democratic transferable vote system. Then to top it off the conservatives want nothing to do with fixing the healthcare problem, at best they want to maintain the economic policy status quo which led to the disastrous chain of events in 2008 and preserves the risk of another such event. At worst they want to double down on trickle down economics which have clearly been disproven with disastrous results, and if that wasn't enough cut welfare spending and put that towards more military spending. And then there's the whole regression on abortion thing, global warming/in general the environment, future technology (renewable energy), and guns as well.

so yeah, a single term without conservatives to block solutions to all those issues would do this country some good.

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

I just see it as dollars and cents and the economic concept of externalities.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

I came from a suburb that is one of the wealthiest places in the region because we invested heavily in our public school system. We became the primary landing spot for all new white collar business arrivals in the area because they want their kids to have the best education possible. That is on top of the general value that is public works such as a library or a park. If the local govt can provide a better service or the same service for less with something such as trash removal, why wouldn't you choose the better option.

You look at taxes and simply see the deduction. I see the cost/benefit. I'm not losing X dollars. It's simply being spent on things that will benefit myself. Not all of it I agree with, but I can either spend a couple grand to fix my car when a crumy road tears it apart, or for a tiny fraction of the cost have that road fixed while getting to work quicker thanks to a smoother traffic flow.

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RedTom, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

When did I ever say that? Worry about yourself and others commenting on this issue please.

(02-11-2016 02:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

I liked how you cut out the rest of my post. it seems like some opinions/concepts you would rather not hear.

(02-11-2016 02:16 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

I liked how you cut out the rest of my post. it seems like some opinions/concepts you would rather not hear.

A small monologue about a bunch of taxpayer-funded programs that NO ONE is threatening to take away?

Yes, amazing.

(02-11-2016 02:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

You're just a radical, anti-government nut job, shifty. The country obviously needs more Detroits, Chicagos, Flints, Clevelands, Baltimores, etc.

(02-11-2016 02:20 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

You're just a radical, anti-government nut job, shifty. The country obviously needs more Detroits, Chicagos, Flints, Clevelands, Baltimores, etc.

I encourage all the white upper class liberals to submerge themselves in those cultures. Kumbaya my lord kumbaayaaaaaaa.

(02-11-2016 02:20 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Why liberals like Max, RWT, Mach, etc. think the government will take care of their money better than themselves is beyond reason.

It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

You're just a radical, anti-government nut job, shifty. The country obviously needs more Detroits, Chicagos, Flints, Clevelands, Baltimores, etc.

Because obviously the only impact on those cities was local/state and in absolutely no way did federal policy decisions have ANY impact. cons are a joke...

(02-11-2016 02:33 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:20 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:08 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 02:05 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-11-2016 01:19 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  It's because they see government as friendly, incorruptible, and an expression of the highest and most noble human endeavor, big G Government.

If you came from in the middle of bum f*** nowhere I can understand why someone would say "govt is evil...more govt more problems."

Or if you have even a rudimentary grasp of basic history and/or the history of government.

You're just a radical, anti-government nut job, shifty. The country obviously needs more Detroits, Chicagos, Flints, Clevelands, Baltimores, etc.

Because obviously the only impact on those cities was local/state and in absolutely no way did federal policy decisions have ANY impact. cons are a joke...

It's always the fault of others. Of course.