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IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, new conference takes 8 yrs to earn autobid
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #1
IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, new conference takes 8 yrs to earn autobid
The way I'm reading it, the old rules for a new conference earning an autobid (6 schools playing together for 5 years) are gone. Can anyone find them? The bylaws are complicated, and I could well be wrong.

2015-16 NCAA bylaws.

I started at bylaw 18.5 Automatic Qualification By Conference. The relevant part is 18.5.1

Quote:18.5.1 Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification into any Division I championship,
a conference shall: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)
(a) Have at least six member institutions classified in Division I in the sport in which automatic qualification is
sought; and
(b) Meet all requirements for conference automatic qualification into any division championship as set forth in
Bylaw 31.3.4.

So I go to Bylaw 31.3.4, where the most relevant part says:
Quote:31.3.4.5 Additional Requirements—Basketball. To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in
basketball, a member conference must be a core conference (see Bylaw 31.02.3) and must meet the requirements
of Bylaw 20.02.5. (Revised: 8/14/90, 12/3/90, 4/27/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

So off to Bylaw 20.02.5, and also 31.02.3.

Quote:20.02.5 Multisport Conference. A Division I multisport conference shall satisfy the requirements of this
section. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
20.02.5.1 Minimum Number of Members. A multisport conference shall be composed of at least seven
active Division I members. The member conference shall include at least seven active Division I members that
sponsor both men’s and women’s basketball. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

20.02.5 also includes 20.02.4.5
Quote:20.02.5.4 Continuity. A multisport conference shall establish continuity. To establish continuity, a multisport
conference must meet the requirements of Bylaw 20.02.5.1. In addition, the conference must meet the
requirements of Bylaws 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 for a period of eight consecutive years. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective
8/1/11)

But 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 only talk about how many and which sports a conference must offer.

31.02.3, core conferences.
Quote:31.02.3 Core Conference. A core conference is a multisport conference that has been elected to membership
and, as a result of legislation, is identified in the applicable sections of Constitution 4 related to representation in
the NCAA governance structure. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

that has been elected to membership

Article 4 identifies, by name, the conferences that are FBS, FCS, and nonfootball.

So that means that a new conference has no *right* to an automatic bid, even if the members meet the old continuity rule that doesn't seem to be there anymore. Continuity now only seems to mean that an existing conference has been playing a sport for 8+ years.

The bottom line, by the 2015-16 rules, as far as I can tell, CUSA can't mark time until they can legally split with the new "Southwest Conference" and new "American South" leagues, both having autobids.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 09:25 PM by johnbragg.)
01-29-2016 04:21 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #2
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
You're right. There's no way to "automatically" get NCAA autobids.

It's a way to keep the overall number of autobids in check, and no doubt that has a lot to do with March Madness, which right now has exactly the same number of autobids as at-large teams. If any group of schools could form a brand new conference and automatically be entitled to autobids, we might end up with 44 autobids instead of 34, which would mean either 10 fewer at-large teams in the tournament or an expansion of the tournament to preserve the balance between autobids and at-large teams.

The Atlantic 10, for example, has 14 members. If any new conference was automatically entitled to NCAA autobids, there would be nothing stopping the A-10 from dividing into two 7-team conferences for the sole purpose of getting two autobids. They could even have the same commissioner, same conference office, etc. to save on overhead, and have scheduling agreements with each other to make sure every school can easily fill its schedules. They could even have a shared TV deal, for that matter.

There would be nothing stopping any 12-team conference from splitting in half and each half adding one new member to get its own March Madness autobid and to meet the minimum 7 members required for a D-I conference.
01-29-2016 04:45 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #3
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 04:45 PM)Wedge Wrote:  You're right. There's no way to "automatically" get NCAA autobids.

It's a way to keep the overall number of autobids in check, and no doubt that has a lot to do with March Madness, which right now has exactly the same number of autobids as at-large teams.

Yes, CUSA splitters overestimate how excited the Powers That Be would be to hand over an at-large bid for a new one-bid league. (The Big East didn't face this problem because we didn't create that problem--9 years out of 10 our champion isn't taking an at-large bid away from anybody.)
01-29-2016 04:48 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #4
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
If the following CUSA schools wanted to break and form their own conference, 2021 would be the earliest date that they could do it:

UTEP
UTSA - 2013 joined
Rice
North Texas - 2013
La Tech - 2013
S Miss
UAB
MTSU - 2013

The eight schools (seven would be acceptable) would have created continuity in 2021 for a new conference. The remaining schools of CUSA could invite a couple more members and would still be whole because it doesn't need to reestablish continuity.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 07:03 PM by NoDak.)
01-29-2016 07:01 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #5
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
The question could be that some defunct conferences could be brought back like SWC, Great West and the likes? Does not say anything about old conferences if they come back from the dead.
01-29-2016 07:06 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #6
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:01 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If the following CUSA schools wanted to break and form their own conference, 2021 would be the earliest date that they could do it:

UTEP
UTSA - 2013 joined
Rice
North Texas - 2013
La Tech - 2013
S Miss
UAB
MTSU - 2013

The eight schools (seven would be acceptable) would have created continuity in 2021 for a new conference. The remaining schools of CUSA could invite a couple more members and would still be whole because it doesn't need to reestablish continuity.

Congratulations on not reading the thread. X-schools-for-Y-years doesn't matter. According to the current NCAA bylaws, if CUSA East Plus JMU wants to break away from CUSA, they can do it today, or they can do it ten years from now and it makes no difference. The new group either convinces the NCAA Division I power structure to let them in, or the new group is S.O.L. There are no rules, there is no procedure to "earn" automatic bid status.

Under the current rules, a conference getting an automatic bid is much like a school getting membership to a conference. It cannot be earned, it can only be freely granted.

Quote:The question could be that some defunct conferences could be brought back like SWC, Great West and the likes? Does not say anything about old conferences if they come back from the dead.


The current governing structure doesn't mention the dead conferences, so they would have to ask "pretty please" just like a brand new conference.

If "CUSA West Plus NMSU" wanted to break away from CUSA, it would make no difference if they wanted to use the old Southwest Conference shell, or if they called themselves the Texas RAngers Conference.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 07:17 PM by johnbragg.)
01-29-2016 07:13 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #7
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:13 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:01 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If the following CUSA schools wanted to break and form their own conference, 2021 would be the earliest date that they could do it:

UTEP
UTSA - 2013 joined
Rice
North Texas - 2013
La Tech - 2013
S Miss
UAB
MTSU - 2013

The eight schools (seven would be acceptable) would have created continuity in 2021 for a new conference. The remaining schools of CUSA could invite a couple more members and would still be whole because it doesn't need to reestablish continuity.

Congratulations on not reading the thread. X-schools-for-Y-years doesn't matter. According to the current NCAA bylaws, if CUSA East Plus JMU wants to break away from CUSA, they can do it today, or they can do it ten years from now and it makes no difference. The new group either convinces the NCAA Division I power structure to let them in, or the new group is S.O.L. There are no rules, there is no procedure to "earn" automatic bid status.

Under the current rules, a conference getting an automatic bid is much like a school getting membership to a conference. It cannot be earned, it can only be freely granted.
The same rules existed when the New Big East split off from the old Big East (American). Exactly the same situation except CUSA does not meet the criteria until 2021. In CUSA, an existing continuity core does not exist as it did for the C7.

The old PAC8 could break off today, leaving the PAC12 at four along with four Texas FBS schools added, and both haves would have an autobid.

Continuity matters within the conference for a split off of seven members for a new conference. Continuity doesn't matter for an old conference to retain it's bid.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 07:31 PM by NoDak.)
01-29-2016 07:29 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #8
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 04:45 PM)Wedge Wrote:  You're right. There's no way to "automatically" get NCAA autobids.

It's a way to keep the overall number of autobids in check, and no doubt that has a lot to do with March Madness, which right now has exactly the same number of autobids as at-large teams. If any group of schools could form a brand new conference and automatically be entitled to autobids, we might end up with 44 autobids instead of 34, which would mean either 10 fewer at-large teams in the tournament or an expansion of the tournament to preserve the balance between autobids and at-large teams.

The Atlantic 10, for example, has 14 members. If any new conference was automatically entitled to NCAA autobids, there would be nothing stopping the A-10 from dividing into two 7-team conferences for the sole purpose of getting two autobids. They could even have the same commissioner, same conference office, etc. to save on overhead, and have scheduling agreements with each other to make sure every school can easily fill its schedules. They could even have a shared TV deal, for that matter.

There would be nothing stopping any 12-team conference from splitting in half and each half adding one new member to get its own March Madness autobid and to meet the minimum 7 members required for a D-I conference.

The seven members of the A10 have to have continuity, and then they can break off. Davidson and some others wouldn't count.
01-29-2016 07:36 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #9
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The same rules existed when the New Big East split off from the old Big East (American).

As best I can tell, we got a waiver. I'm not sure, but I think the "WAC rule" was in effect, that an existing conference had to keep existing for "continuity" but a new group was just a new group.

Quote:Exactly the same situation except CUSA does not meet the criteria until 2021. In CUSA, an existing continuity core does not exist as it did for the C7.

The old PAC could break off today, leaving the PAC12, and both haves would have an autobid.

Continuity matters within the conference for a split off of seven members for a new conference. Continuity doesn't matter for an old conference to retain it's bid.

You're saying that. I'm saying that you're wrong. I've posted a link to the current rules, and quotes from the current rules. Do you have anything to support what you're saying?

(It's possible that I'm missing something in the rules, and that you're right. But I don't think so. They seem to have changed the rules for new conferences from 6-schools-for-5-years to "screw you, buddy.")
01-29-2016 07:37 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:37 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The same rules existed when the New Big East split off from the old Big East (American).

As best I can tell, we got a waiver. I'm not sure, but I think the "WAC rule" was in effect, that an existing conference had to keep existing for "continuity" but a new group was just a new group.

Quote:Exactly the same situation except CUSA does not meet the criteria until 2021. In CUSA, an existing continuity core does not exist as it did for the C7.

The old PAC could break off today, leaving the PAC12, and both haves would have an autobid.

Continuity matters within the conference for a split off of seven members for a new conference. Continuity doesn't matter for an old conference to retain it's bid.

You're saying that. I'm saying that you're wrong. I've posted a link to the current rules, and quotes from the current rules. Do you have anything to support what you're saying?

(It's possible that I'm missing something in the rules, and that you're right. But I don't think so. They seem to have changed the rules for new conferences from 6-schools-for-5-years to "screw you, buddy.")

The new Big East did not get a waiver. The existing rules allowed it.

SJ, Providence, Vill, Georgetown, SH, Marq, and DePaul met the continuity requirement. Seven school eight years. Case closed.

If Villanova had moved to FBS and stayed with the American side that would have screwed the remaining C6.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 07:53 PM by NoDak.)
01-29-2016 07:48 PM
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