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IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, new conference takes 8 yrs to earn autobid
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #11
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
That language was confusing in the OP, so as I remember it, you have to have a certain amount of members who have been together for a certain amount of years to draw an auto-bid or a certain amount of members must stay together for a significant amount of years. This explains why the new Big East immediately had access to an auto-bid while the Great West didn't and couldn't dream of it realistically.

And now, if I'm reading the thread right, it appears there are no more auto-bids to be had.
01-29-2016 07:52 PM
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johnbragg Online
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Post: #12
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The new Big East did not get a waiver. The existing rules allowed it.

No they didn't. The rules you're talking about were junked to save the WAC.

Quote:SJ, Providence, Vill, Georgetown, SH, Marq, and DePaul met the continuity requirement. Seven school eight years. Case closed.

I googled up the 2012-13 NCAA manual , and followed pretty much the same chain of references. There's nothing about seven schools for eight years. The conference has to have continuity for eight years.

If you had a citation to back up what you're saying about the *current* (and current-as-of-2012-13) rules, that would be great.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 08:05 PM by johnbragg.)
01-29-2016 08:05 PM
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johnbragg Online
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Post: #13
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:52 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That language was confusing in the OP, so as I remember it, you have to have a certain amount of members who have been together for a certain amount of years to draw an auto-bid or a certain amount of members must stay together for a significant amount of years. This explains why the new Big East immediately had access to an auto-bid while the Great West didn't and couldn't dream of it realistically.

And now, if I'm reading the thread right, it appears there are no more auto-bids to be had.

The language is confusing, but if you follow the chain of references to references, you never get to 7-schools-for-8-years or 6-schools-for-5-years or anything like that.

All you get is sponsor-a-sport-for-8-years, sponsor so many mens and so many womens, and so many men's and womens' team sports for 8 years. Which the Great West never had a prayer of doing.

People are relying on their memories of what the rules are, but the problem is that only tells you what the rules used to be.

The Big East didn't get an autobid because we met the requirements. We got it because everyone agreed that we should have it.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 08:09 PM by johnbragg.)
01-29-2016 08:08 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #14
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 07:37 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The same rules existed when the New Big East split off from the old Big East (American).

As best I can tell, we got a waiver. I'm not sure, but I think the "WAC rule" was in effect, that an existing conference had to keep existing for "continuity" but a new group was just a new group.

Quote:Exactly the same situation except CUSA does not meet the criteria until 2021. In CUSA, an existing continuity core does not exist as it did for the C7.

The old PAC could break off today, leaving the PAC12, and both haves would have an autobid.

Continuity matters within the conference for a split off of seven members for a new conference. Continuity doesn't matter for an old conference to retain it's bid.

You're saying that. I'm saying that you're wrong. I've posted a link to the current rules, and quotes from the current rules. Do you have anything to support what you're saying?

(It's possible that I'm missing something in the rules, and that you're right. But I don't think so. They seem to have changed the rules for new conferences from 6-schools-for-5-years to "screw you, buddy.")

I don't think your wrong in that the new conference must be voted a member----but if you have 7 member institutions that are all members in good standing who follow every by-law during the creation of a new conference, I think the NCAA would have a very difficult time not granting their conference membership just because they don't want too many auto-bids out there (regardless of the vote). They would lose that law suit every time. What you might see in response to a new conference is a slight expansion of what they call "the first round" (which is really just the play-in games). Something along those lines would preserve the balance between auto-bids and at large bids.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 08:13 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-29-2016 08:11 PM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #15
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 08:05 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The new Big East did not get a waiver. The existing rules allowed it.

No they didn't. The rules you're talking about were junked to save the WAC.

Quote:SJ, Providence, Vill, Georgetown, SH, Marq, and DePaul met the continuity requirement. Seven school eight years. Case closed.

I googled up the 2012-13 NCAA manual , and followed pretty much the same chain of references. There's nothing about seven schools for eight years. The conference has to have continuity for eight years.

If you had a citation to back up what you're saying about the *current* (and current-as-of-2012-13) rules, that would be great.

The group of schools which were the C7 had established continuity for eight years, even if it was in the old Big East. The NCAA doesn't gratuitously offer autobids.

The A10 can do the same thing as long as those seven schools have eight years of continuity between them.

The same principle allowed the single sport conference, the NCHC, to immediately have an autobid as six schools were together for more than two years in the WCHA. That group separated from the WCHA plus two more and we're granted an autobid right away.

Single sport conferences require six schools together for two years, not seven together for eight years like multisport conferences.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 08:28 PM by NoDak.)
01-29-2016 08:18 PM
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Post: #16
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 08:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I don't think your wrong in that the new conference must be voted a member----but if you have 7 member institutions that are all members in good standing who follow every by-law during the creation of a new conference, I think the NCAA would have a very difficult time not granting their conference membership just because they don't want too many auto-bids out there (regardless of the vote). They would lose that law suit every time. What you might see in response to a new conference is a slight expansion of what they call "the first round" (which is really just the play-in games). Something along those lines would preserve the balance between auto-bids and at large bids.

20.02.5 defines Multisport Conferences.
Quote:20.02.5.4 Continuity. A multisport conference shall establish continuity. To establish continuity, a multisport
conference must meet the requirements of Bylaw 20.02.5.1. In addition, the conference must meet the
requirements of Bylaws 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 for a period of eight consecutive years. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective
8/1/11)

20.02.5.1 says "HAve 7 active Division I members." Easy enough.
20.02.5.2 details the number and types of sports you have to sponsor to be a Multisport Conference (MBB, WBB, football or 2 other men's team sports, 6 womens' sports, 3 womens' team sports)
20.02.5.3 details the rules for having your conference schedule count (basketball double-round-robin or at least 14 games, etc).

So I think the NCAA's position on a new conference is "You can have your autobid in 8 years, if you make it." That 8 year clock starts when the New Conference starts, nothing to do with whether the schools have ever played together before.
01-29-2016 08:22 PM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #17
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 08:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:37 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:29 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The same rules existed when the New Big East split off from the old Big East (American).

As best I can tell, we got a waiver. I'm not sure, but I think the "WAC rule" was in effect, that an existing conference had to keep existing for "continuity" but a new group was just a new group.

Quote:Exactly the same situation except CUSA does not meet the criteria until 2021. In CUSA, an existing continuity core does not exist as it did for the C7.

The old PAC could break off today, leaving the PAC12, and both haves would have an autobid.

Continuity matters within the conference for a split off of seven members for a new conference. Continuity doesn't matter for an old conference to retain it's bid.

You're saying that. I'm saying that you're wrong. I've posted a link to the current rules, and quotes from the current rules. Do you have anything to support what you're saying?

(It's possible that I'm missing something in the rules, and that you're right. But I don't think so. They seem to have changed the rules for new conferences from 6-schools-for-5-years to "screw you, buddy.")

I don't think your wrong in that the new conference must be voted a member----but if you have 7 member institutions that are all members in good standing who follow every by-law during the creation of a new conference, I think the NCAA would have a very difficult time not granting their conference membership just because they don't want too many auto-bids out there (regardless of the vote). They would lose that law suit every time. What you might see in response to a new conference is a slight expansion of what they call "the first round" (which is really just the play-in games). Something along those lines would preserve the balance between auto-bids and at large bids.

Seven members with eight years continuity in a conference can form their own new conference. The MEAC can calve off seven schools, but nobody would join with the remaining schools so it doesn't happen. Football complicates it.
01-29-2016 08:22 PM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #18
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 08:22 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 08:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I don't think your wrong in that the new conference must be voted a member----but if you have 7 member institutions that are all members in good standing who follow every by-law during the creation of a new conference, I think the NCAA would have a very difficult time not granting their conference membership just because they don't want too many auto-bids out there (regardless of the vote). They would lose that law suit every time. What you might see in response to a new conference is a slight expansion of what they call "the first round" (which is really just the play-in games). Something along those lines would preserve the balance between auto-bids and at large bids.

20.02.5 defines Multisport Conferences.
Quote:20.02.5.4 Continuity. A multisport conference shall establish continuity. To establish continuity, a multisport
conference must meet the requirements of Bylaw 20.02.5.1. In addition, the conference must meet the
requirements of Bylaws 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 for a period of eight consecutive years. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective
8/1/11)

20.02.5.1 says "HAve 7 active Division I members." Easy enough.
20.02.5.2 details the number and types of sports you have to sponsor to be a Multisport Conference (MBB, WBB, football or 2 other men's team sports, 6 womens' sports, 3 womens' team sports)
20.02.5.3 details the rules for having your conference schedule count (basketball double-round-robin or at least 14 games, etc).

So I think the NCAA's position on a new conference is "You can have your autobid in 8 years, if you make it." That 8 year clock starts when the New Conference starts, nothing to do with whether the schools have ever played together before.

False. The eight years started in the old Big East. Look it up from news sources.

The NCAA wasn't just being nice to the New Big East. The old Big East helped fashion the rules at the insistence of the C7.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 08:30 PM by NoDak.)
01-29-2016 08:24 PM
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Post: #19
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
(01-29-2016 08:18 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 08:05 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-29-2016 07:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The new Big East did not get a waiver. The existing rules allowed it.

No they didn't. The rules you're talking about were junked to save the WAC.

Quote:SJ, Providence, Vill, Georgetown, SH, Marq, and DePaul met the continuity requirement. Seven school eight years. Case closed.

I googled up the 2012-13 NCAA manual , and followed pretty much the same chain of references. There's nothing about seven schools for eight years. The conference has to have continuity for eight years.

If you had a citation to back up what you're saying about the *current* (and current-as-of-2012-13) rules, that would be great.

The group of schools which were the C7 had established continuity for eight years, even if it was in the old Big East. The NCAA doesn't gratuitously offer autobids.

The A10 can do the same thing as long as those seven schools have eight years of continuity between them.

You keep repeating that, I keep telling you you're wrong, I keep linking to The NCAA MAnual, you keep citing nothing.

Quote:The same principle allowed the single sport conference, the NCHC, to immediately have an autobid as six schools were together for more than two years in the WCHA. That group separated from the WCHA plus two more and we're granted an autobid right away.

That's a good point. What are the rules for single-sport conferences?
Quote:31.3.4.4.2 Single-Sport Conference. To be considered for automatic qualification in a particular sport,
a single-sport member conference for a sport sponsored by less than 50 percent of the Division I membership
must include six institutions that have conducted conference competition together the preceding two
years in the sport in question at the Division I level. (Adopted: 8/5/04, Revised: 4/27/06 effective 8/1/06)

So the rule for single-sport conferences is 6-schools-for-2-years.

Let's do a CTRL-F for "conducted conference competition together". 2 hits, one for the National Collegiate Championship and one for single-sport conferences. Nothing for multi-sport conferences.
01-29-2016 08:33 PM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #20
RE: IF I'm reading the NCAA bylaws right, a new conference can never EARN an autobid
Ask your AD if you don't believe me. I'm on a tablet with limited linking capabilites.

The existence of an autobid for the NCHC the first year proves the merits of my arguments. Six schools continuity for two years for an autobid for single sports conferences.

The existence of an autobid for the New Big East by previous continuity proves the merits of seven schools eight years for multisport conferences.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2016 08:41 PM by NoDak.)
01-29-2016 08:36 PM
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