What is happening in Flint is a criminal. To this day, two years after lead was found in the water, not one pipe has been replaced. Already, a dozen children have been found to have lead poisoning. Who knows how many more children have been exposed.

It is no secret that Flint has had financial troubles. Everyone knows that they had to be taken over by the State because they were largely in debt. An Emergency Manager was brought in to help the city cut costs and this was the result.

And Flint is a microcosm of Democratic and Republican Ideals. On one side you have a group of people who believe that government can help all people succeed and it is in the best interest of everyone that the entire nation be given a shot. That everyone should contribute to that end. On the other side, you have a group of people who believe that government is a hindrance. That left to their own devices, those who wish to succeed will be successful and those that do not will not be successful. Or as Marco Rubio has protested, " ...a nation of makers and takers" .

Flint has been dominated locally by Democrats and those people have contributed to the large debt that Flint now suffers under. It is a debt that indirectly effects everyone in that city. It can be said that they have not done a good job. That their programs are ineffective and that their government is inefficient. It can even be said that their more affluent citizens have been unfairly burdened through taxes. Still, even their most of their impoverished citizens we given a chance to pull themselves out of poverty through and number of federal, state, and local social programs.

Then came the Republican governor Snyder who decided that Flint had to change. That they needed to save money. So he send an Emergency Manger to Flint and other cities in Michigan.

Their job was to make sure that these cities run more efficiently, that tax payers were not unfairly burdened with increased taxes to pay enormous debt. All of these were valid reasons to improve a city's finances. What was not acceptable however that they would so recklessly attempt to save money by expediting the change of drinking water because this proved to be the cause of an epic tragedy.

And so here we are today. Hindsight is 20/20 and we now see what a bad decision that was. That Flint, with all it's debt, poverty and inefficiencies was still a bad place to live, but for most people, a relatively safe place to live. That is until someone decided that they needed to save money. And now everyone of it's 100k citizens, especially it's children, are in danger. Some of them will suffer irreversible damage. Some family's will never recover. Flint may never recover. And all because someone wanted to save money.

It's always about money for some. This is the difference between two groups of people. Where as some will care to save people at all cost. Others will care only to save money.

I think it has more to do with the people than the ideals.

Most of our political class are incompetent and incapable of really doing much of anything.

(01-28-2016 11:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Their job was to make sure that these cities run more efficiently, that tax payers were not unfairly burdened with increased taxes to pay enormous debt. All of these were valid reasons to improve a city's finances. What was not acceptable however that they would so recklessly attempt to save money by expediting the change of drinking water because this proved to be the cause of an epic tragedy.

The change had to be expiated because Detroit would not let them draw from that system while they built out a new one. The City of Detroit forced the timetable changes, the the Governor. Seems like Detroit was more interested in money than people...

From what I have read they made a decision they were going to move, notified Detroit and were cut off. It could be spite, a negotiation tactic, or maybe they had a valid reason.

Quote:And so here we are today. Hindsight is 20/20 and we now see what a bad decision that was.

Yup. And the Governor needs to own it, as does the EPA for their silence. But this is not a GOP vs Democratic values moment. This is called unintended consequences. I'm sure I can find instances when "democratic ideals" led to a poor decision that, in hind sight, hurt people.

Quote:That is until someone decided that they needed to save money.

Are you saying flint did not need to save money? The city was bankrupt.

This better says it than I did Fit..

"Before the appointment of the (Democratic) emergency manager, Flint’s elected mayor and city council (Democrats) had decided to sever the city’s relationship with its drinking-water supplier, which was at the time the Detroit water authority. Flint intended to join a regional water authority that would pipe water in from Lake Huron, a project that was scheduled to take three years to come online. In a fit of pique, Detroit (a city under unitary Democratic control) immediately moved to terminate Flint’s water supply, leaving the city high and literally dry."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/43...er-scandal

(01-28-2016 11:52 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  This better says it than I did Fit..

"Before the appointment of the (Democratic) emergency manager, Flint’s elected mayor and city council (Democrats) had decided to sever the city’s relationship with its drinking-water supplier, which was at the time the Detroit water authority. Flint intended to join a regional water authority that would pipe water in from Lake Huron, a project that was scheduled to take three years to come online. In a fit of pique, Detroit (a city under unitary Democratic control) immediately moved to terminate Flint’s water supply, leaving the city high and literally dry."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/43...er-scandal

Water...Water everywhere...and..not a drop fit to drink. Another failure of government to supply even the basic of needs to its citizens.

(01-28-2016 11:27 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I think it has more to do with the people than the ideals.

Most of our political class are incompetent and incapable of really doing much of anything.

I think that's not at all entirely true, but where it is true it may be because the $$ folks have successfully managed to convince so many that government is inept and incompetent it's become an almost self-fulfilling prophecy.

I also think if more people saw government service as honorable it would be reflected by better government.

I also think if your sole motive is profit and that's how you gauge success then you are operating under a far less severe set of expectations.

I also think that if one were to seriously examine the records of corporations and private sector folks one would find many of them are equally incompetent and incapable of doing much of anything.

Criticism of government is a good thing, but what I can't understand is why those who believe government is so terrible would want to be part of it.

If the Tea Party set really had balls they would be anarchists, but most are too chicken---t to do anything but throw rocks, whine and complain. And most are OK with government spending, just so long as it's government spending they approve of.

(01-28-2016 01:12 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  If the Tea Party set really had balls they would be anarchists, but most are too chicken---t to do anything but throw rocks, whine and complain. And most are OK with government spending, just so long as it's government spending they approve of.

Limited government does not mean *no* government. That's a common trope the left pulls out about libertarians and small government conservatives.

(01-28-2016 11:39 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  [quote='Fitbud' pid='12942466' dateline='1453997568']
Their job was to make sure that these cities run more efficiently, that tax payers were not unfairly burdened with increased taxes to pay enormous debt. All of these were valid reasons to improve a city's finances. What was not acceptable however that they would so recklessly attempt to save money by expediting the change of drinking water because this proved to be the cause of an epic tragedy.

The change had to be expiated because Detroit would not let them draw from that system while they built out a new one. The City of Detroit forced the timetable changes, the the Governor. Seems like Detroit was more interested in money than people...

From what I have read they made a decision they were going to move, notified Detroit and were cut off. It could be spite, a negotiation tactic, or maybe they had a valid reason.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics.../76037130/

Walling said the decision to use the Flint River as an interim source was ultimately made by then-Flint emergency manager Edward Kurtz in about June 2013 when he expanded an existing engineering contract for the Flint Water Treatment Plant to cover needed upgrades.

(01-28-2016 01:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 11:39 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  [quote='Fitbud' pid='12942466' dateline='1453997568']
Their job was to make sure that these cities run more efficiently, that tax payers were not unfairly burdened with increased taxes to pay enormous debt. All of these were valid reasons to improve a city's finances. What was not acceptable however that they would so recklessly attempt to save money by expediting the change of drinking water because this proved to be the cause of an epic tragedy.

The change had to be expiated because Detroit would not let them draw from that system while they built out a new one. The City of Detroit forced the timetable changes, the the Governor. Seems like Detroit was more interested in money than people...

From what I have read they made a decision they were going to move, notified Detroit and were cut off. It could be spite, a negotiation tactic, or maybe they had a valid reason.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics.../76037130/

Walling said the decision to use the Flint River as an interim source was ultimately made by then-Flint emergency manager Edward Kurtz in about June 2013 when he expanded an existing engineering contract for the Flint Water Treatment Plant to cover needed upgrades.

Because, after the liberals had crapped the bed continuously and left no other options on the table, the only option they had left was to use the backup water source.

What does anyone want to bet that the reason the liberals in Detroit cut off the water supply to the liberals in Flint is because Flint owed them money?

I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

(01-28-2016 01:23 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 01:12 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  If the Tea Party set really had balls they would be anarchists, but most are too chicken---t to do anything but throw rocks, whine and complain. And most are OK with government spending, just so long as it's government spending they approve of.

Limited government does not mean *no* government. That's a common trope the left pulls out about libertarians and small government conservatives.

And sound fiscal policy or management is not pursuing a "profit motive". Its called being able to provide basic needs and services to a constituency.

Good grief what an emotional screed.

95- Go take a look at the Cities that are in the worst shape currently and those in the past.

Whats the common theme other than vast corruption?

I'll give you a hint- It's starts with a D and ends with rats.

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

It's not about one party being better than the other because both parties have their faults.

The issue here is the driving force between both parties and how these driving forces force them to make mistakes.

The driving force for democrats is equality for all people. This leads to government inefficiency and misappropriation of funds.

The driving force for republicans is saving or making money. This leads to government that cuts corners and leaves it's weakest citizens vulnerable.

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

The real Moral is Why would Any parent no matter the political party or Race ever drink or let Their Children drink any water that is rust brown ? At the very least boil it first. Even then I wouldn't touch it. Obama should have ordered the Corp of Engineers into and around Flint & the Flint River a long time ago. This is a Humanitarian disaster. That is what the Federal Government is suppose to do. Not the Local Government not properly equipped to handle it.

(01-28-2016 02:05 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

The real Moral is Why would Any parent no matter the political party or Race ever drink or let Their Children drink any water that is rust brown ? At the very least boil it first. Even then I wouldn't touch it. Obama should have ordered the Corp of Engineers into and around Flint & the Flint River a long time ago. This is a Humanitarian disaster. That is what the Federal Government is suppose to do. Not the Local Government not properly equipped to handle it.

I totally agree. But people would rather talk about who to blame than talk about solutions. God Bless America.

(01-28-2016 02:06 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 02:05 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

The real Moral is Why would Any parent no matter the political party or Race ever drink or let Their Children drink any water that is rust brown ? At the very least boil it first. Even then I wouldn't touch it. Obama should have ordered the Corp of Engineers into and around Flint & the Flint River a long time ago. This is a Humanitarian disaster. That is what the Federal Government is suppose to do. Not the Local Government not properly equipped to handle it.

I totally agree. But people would rather talk about who to blame than talk about solutions. God Bless America.

There is No time for blame.......Time to Fix it Now and hope and pray these folks are Not totally damaged. It's a damn shame the Feds haven't moved in yet.

(01-28-2016 02:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

It's not about one party being better than the other because both parties have their faults.

The issue here is the driving force between both parties and how these driving forces force them to make mistakes.

The driving force for democrats is equality for all people. This leads to government inefficiency and misappropriation of funds.

The driving force for republicans is saving or making money. This leads to government that cuts corners and leaves it's weakest citizens vulnerable.

Which is the very definition of socialism and simply impossible. It can, by definition never work. Ever.

Then we have this silliness:

Quote:On one side you have a group of people who believe that government can help all people succeed and it is in the best interest of everyone that the entire nation be given a shot. That everyone should contribute to that end.

"Everyone should contribute to that end". Let that sink in for a moment, sportsfans.

With 4 out of every TEN people sitting on the sidelines and another large block working fewer hours than they could or may even like, I guess the operable word there is "should".

If it were instead, "does", is Flint anywhere near this situation? Not even remotely. You reap what you sow. Failure begets failure. Garbage in, garbage out.

(01-28-2016 02:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

It's not about one party being better than the other because both parties have their faults.

The issue here is the driving force between both parties and how these driving forces force them to make mistakes.

The driving force for democrats is equality for all people. This leads to government inefficiency and misappropriation of funds.

The driving force for republicans is saving or making money. This leads to government that cuts corners and leaves it's weakest citizens vulnerable.

Close. The driving force for most Conservatives (used to be able to say Republicans) is to reduce the size of government and return power and discretion to the states.

I don't think that this is an issue of one party or the other. It's a simple issue of who signed off on the water quality tests, and most likely has absolutely ZERO to do with their political affiliation. Flint = Democrat run. Detroit = Democrat run. Unless the Democrats intentionally endangered their own citizens, this isn't a political story at all.

The decision was made entirely at the local level with council members assumable voting in the best interest of their town and citizens.

Good Read

Quote:Genesee County Drain Commissioner Jeff Wright also made the affirmative vote by the City Council a necessary condition of joining the KWA, and applauded the decision in a March 26, 2013, news release, “… I have said from the beginning that this decision must be made by Flint’s City Council and Mayor … I am glad that the residents of Flint were able to have their voices heard via their elected officials.”

The mayor’s approval of the plan and the subsequent near unanimous vote by City Council were in no way coerced, forced or demanded by the state, nor any emergency manager. Council’s affirmative vote was supported and signed as an Executive Order by then-Emergency Manager Edward Kurtz on March 29, 2013. A subsequent order Kurtz signed on June 26, 2013, speaks specifically to “… upgrading of the Flint Water Plant to ready it to treat water from the Flint River to serve as the primary drinking water source for approximately two years and then converting to KWA delivered lake water.”

It's actually very sad that you would try to use this to imply Republicans are all about cutting spending, even willing to poison people, to meet their agenda. There is enough political vitriol spewed by both parties without trying to make what turned out to be a very unfortunate decision into a political blame game.

(01-28-2016 11:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  What is happening in Flint is a criminal. To this day, two years after lead was found in the water, not one pipe has been replaced. Already, a dozen children have been found to have lead poisoning. Who knows how many more children have been exposed.

It is no secret that Flint has had financial troubles. Everyone knows that they had to be taken over by the State because they were largely in debt. An Emergency Manager was brought in to help the city cut costs and this was the result.

And Flint is a microcosm of Democratic and Republican Ideals. On one side you have a group of people who believe that government can help all people succeed and it is in the best interest of everyone that the entire nation be given a shot. That everyone should contribute to that end. On the other side, you have a group of people who believe that government is a hindrance. That left to their own devices, those who wish to succeed will be successful and those that do not will not be successful. Or as Marco Rubio has protested, " ...a nation of makers and takers" .

Flint has been dominated locally by Democrats and those people have contributed to the large debt that Flint now suffers under. It is a debt that indirectly effects everyone in that city. It can be said that they have not done a good job. That their programs are ineffective and that their government is inefficient. It can even be said that their more affluent citizens have been unfairly burdened through taxes. Still, even their most of their impoverished citizens we given a chance to pull themselves out of poverty through and number of federal, state, and local social programs.

Then came the Republican governor Snyder who decided that Flint had to change. That they needed to save money. So he send an Emergency Manger to Flint and other cities in Michigan.

Their job was to make sure that these cities run more efficiently, that tax payers were not unfairly burdened with increased taxes to pay enormous debt. All of these were valid reasons to improve a city's finances. What was not acceptable however that they would so recklessly attempt to save money by expediting the change of drinking water because this proved to be the cause of an epic tragedy.

And so here we are today. Hindsight is 20/20 and we now see what a bad decision that was. That Flint, with all it's debt, poverty and inefficiencies was still a bad place to live, but for most people, a relatively safe place to live. That is until someone decided that they needed to save money. And now everyone of it's 100k citizens, especially it's children, are in danger. Some of them will suffer irreversible damage. Some family's will never recover. Flint may never recover. And all because someone wanted to save money.

It's always about money for some. This is the difference between two groups of people. Where as some will care to save people at all cost. Others will care only to save money.

So I guess this is your long winded attempt to say: Democrats are for the people and all their decisions are to that end and Republicans only care about money and will purposely screw the people to those ends.

What a crock of sh!t.

What a lame attempt at whitewashing decades of Democrat ineptitude and throw it all on someone else trying to fix a bankrupt city.

It's ridiculous. I didn't realize the problem until last night and how long it has been a problem. They need to move everybody out of Flint and fix the plumbing or just relocate everyone. You can't just keep giving them bottled water. Lead poisoning will cost more in health care later if we don't do something now.

(01-28-2016 02:05 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 01:55 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  I love how you guys think one party is better or more moral than the other. It's great. Anyway, carry on....

The real Moral is Why would Any parent no matter the political party or Race ever drink or let Their Children drink any water that is rust brown ? At the very least boil it first. Even then I wouldn't touch it. Obama should have ordered the Corp of Engineers into and around Flint & the Flint River a long time ago. This is a Humanitarian disaster. That is what the Federal Government is suppose to do. Not the Local Government not properly equipped to handle it.

The federal government cannot be in every municipality checking everyone's water. There is a reason why some power is given to the states. States should be able to handle something like this. This was simply a major mistake because someone wanted to save the city some money.