No.

To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

I think Coach K deserves a two more years. He seems to have recruited a good class. Let's see how they develop.

I would replace Cullop at the end of the season. I have seen nothing from her that gives me confidence UT will be more than a middle of the pack MAC program. She is great communicating with the fan base, but that doesn't win championships. UT WBB should be the premier program in the MAC every year. I really don't understand what MOB is waiting for.

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

So .500 is the new standard for Toledo, and deemed to be acceptable by our AD ??
That way of thinking eventually will not sit well with longtime boosters/fans !!

(01-24-2016 12:40 AM)flying dutchman Wrote:  Aww you are so positive, but the team shot 31% from the floor 13% from three and 40% from freethrow. They had 23 turnovers and were out rebounded 50-34. Printz, Capotosto and Bravo-Harriet were 2 for 23. Harris was 3 for 8 so the four main guards were 5 for 31. You are putting a nice coating of lipstick on that pig but it is still a very very ugly pig.

No truer words, best drscribed the game yesterday afternoon. Mike O'Brien was not a happy camper leaving EMU after the game, just like the rest of us.

(01-24-2016 02:50 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

So .500 is the new standard for Toledo, and deemed to be acceptable by our AD ??
That way of thinking eventually will not sit well with longtime boosters/fans !!

Is that was I said? Nope.

There's probably not a total disconnect between the performance of the different programs and how they'd be handled as far as thinking new staff might be a good idea. Both programs going .500 at the same time? Patience could be short and someone or both goes. One shows success while the other goes through a period of mediocrity? Both would probably survive. I also think having a good relationship with the public as particularly Coach C does, gives lee-way. Butts in the seat because it has become a program that has created loyal fans instead of a fair-weather fans. She has a lot to do with that. All the programs could learn from that.

Hopefully no extended .500 years in the forecast.

(01-24-2016 02:50 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

So .500 is the new standard for Toledo, and deemed to be acceptable by our AD ??
That way of thinking eventually will not sit well with longtime boosters/fans !!

I hate to say it, but I am not even sure that this is a NEW standard of acceptance by either the AD or by many (most?) of the UT fan base themselves. A lot of fans seem totally satisfied with a 20 win season now and then and hanging another NIT (or WNIT) banner from the rafters. I think that for many (most?) their expectations have been slowly but progressively lowered over the years by the very absence of any success at reaching the NCAA. Really, how many people on this board were even alive that last time the men played in the NCAA?

I think Al Bohl was probably the last AD who set the bar higher----namely every year he expected the revenue sports to be competing for a league championship----and sometimes winning it ----these were his stated EXPECTATIONS which are somewhat more forceful than calling winning the championship a mere goal (which carries no consequences if it is never achieved). As to the fan base expectations, if you think back on it a bit, there were a lot of Rocket fans pretty upset with Al Bohl when he canned Dan Simrell and hired Nick Saban.

The very fact that the men's program has gone 35 years without a trip to the NCAA would seem to suggest that, with the possible exception of Al Bohl, there hasn't been much real sense of urgency about winning championships for quite some time as expectations have gradually been eroded over time.

(01-24-2016 03:55 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:50 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

So .500 is the new standard for Toledo, and deemed to be acceptable by our AD ??
That way of thinking eventually will not sit well with longtime boosters/fans !!

I hate to say it, but I am not even sure that this is a NEW standard of acceptance by either the AD or by many (most?) of the UT fan base themselves. A lot of fans seem totally satisfied with a 20 win season now and then and hanging another NIT (or WNIT) banner from the rafters. I think that for many (most?) their expectations have been slowly but progressively lowered over the years by the very absence of any success at reaching the NCAA. Really, how many people on this board were even alive that last time the men played in the NCAA?

I think Al Bohl was probably the last AD who set the bar higher----namely every year he expected the revenue sports to be competing for a league championship----and sometimes winning it ----these were his stated EXPECTATIONS which are somewhat more forceful than calling winning the championship a mere goal (which carries no consequences if it is never achieved). As to the fan base expectations, if you think back on it a bit, there were a lot of Rocket fans pretty upset with Al Bohl when he canned Dan Simrell and hired Nick Saban.

The very fact that the men's program has gone 35 years without a trip to the NCAA would seem to suggest that, with the possible exception of Al Bohl, there hasn't been much real sense of urgency about winning championships for quite some time as expectations have gradually been eroded over time.

Wow. 35 years. It's been a while.

(01-24-2016 03:55 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:50 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

So .500 is the new standard for Toledo, and deemed to be acceptable by our AD ??
That way of thinking eventually will not sit well with longtime boosters/fans !!

I hate to say it, but I am not even sure that this is a NEW standard of acceptance by either the AD or by many (most?) of the UT fan base themselves. A lot of fans seem totally satisfied with a 20 win season now and then and hanging another NIT (or WNIT) banner from the rafters. I think that for many (most?) their expectations have been slowly but progressively lowered over the years by the very absence of any success at reaching the NCAA. Really, how many people on this board were even alive that last time the men played in the NCAA?

I think Al Bohl was probably the last AD who set the bar higher----namely every year he expected the revenue sports to be competing for a league championship----and sometimes winning it ----these were his stated EXPECTATIONS which are somewhat more forceful than calling winning the championship a mere goal (which carries no consequences if it is never achieved). As to the fan base expectations, if you think back on it a bit, there were a lot of Rocket fans pretty upset with Al Bohl when he canned Dan Simrell and hired Nick Saban.

The very fact that the men's program has gone 35 years without a trip to the NCAA would seem to suggest that, with the possible exception of Al Bohl, there hasn't been much real sense of urgency about winning championships for quite some time as expectations have gradually been eroded over time.

How many NCAA appearances were there before that 35 years and when were they? I think those two years were more an anomily that an expectation weren't they? 35 years is a too long time, particularly with an expanded field. Not sure that's going to be corrected by continually flipping coaches unless there's someone extremely promising interested in being next up.

Sometimes you fire only when you have better available. Not just to make a point. As long as GPAs are up and winning is generally predominant, I think our coaches and coaches at most places are generally safe.

(01-24-2016 04:25 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  How many NCAA appearances were there before that 35 years and when were they? I think those two years were more an anomily that an expectation weren't they? 35 years is a too long time, particularly with an expanded field. Not sure that's going to be corrected by continually flipping coaches unless there's someone extremely promising interested in being next up.

Sometimes you fire only when you have better available. Not just to make a point. As long as GPAs are up and winning is generally predominant, I think our coaches and coaches at most places are generally safe.

Other than '78-'79 and '79-'80, only 2 other appearances. '53-'54, '66'-'67. So to say the expectation, year in and year out, is to make the NCAA tourny is asinine. To fire a coach who is averaging 20+ wins the last 4 seasons because he hasn't yet made the NCAA tourny is not smart. It's not like we've going to the NCAAT all the time to begin with.

Are there years I expect us to make it? Yes, like a couple years ago. But to get upset and say we should fire a coach because we are 12-7 in a REBUILDING year is a little nuts. TK has only had 'only' had 2 legitimate years to make the tourney. So, yes, let's hope MOB fires him.
--His 1st yr they were coming of a 7 win & 4 win season, with the cupboards being empty.
--2nd yr they went 19-17, with one of the biggest turnarounds in NCAA history. NO ONE expected a 19 win year after winning a combined 15 gms the previous 3 seasons. Still restocking the cupboards.
--3rd year, they lost a scholarship or 2 (I believe), had reduced practice time, and a reduced schedule. Post season ban,
--Yrs 4 & 5, some definite underachieving happened.

(01-24-2016 04:25 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 03:55 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:50 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

So .500 is the new standard for Toledo, and deemed to be acceptable by our AD ??
That way of thinking eventually will not sit well with longtime boosters/fans !!

I hate to say it, but I am not even sure that this is a NEW standard of acceptance by either the AD or by many (most?) of the UT fan base themselves. A lot of fans seem totally satisfied with a 20 win season now and then and hanging another NIT (or WNIT) banner from the rafters. I think that for many (most?) their expectations have been slowly but progressively lowered over the years by the very absence of any success at reaching the NCAA. Really, how many people on this board were even alive that last time the men played in the NCAA?

I think Al Bohl was probably the last AD who set the bar higher----namely every year he expected the revenue sports to be competing for a league championship----and sometimes winning it ----these were his stated EXPECTATIONS which are somewhat more forceful than calling winning the championship a mere goal (which carries no consequences if it is never achieved). As to the fan base expectations, if you think back on it a bit, there were a lot of Rocket fans pretty upset with Al Bohl when he canned Dan Simrell and hired Nick Saban.

The very fact that the men's program has gone 35 years without a trip to the NCAA would seem to suggest that, with the possible exception of Al Bohl, there hasn't been much real sense of urgency about winning championships for quite some time as expectations have gradually been eroded over time.

How many NCAA appearances were there before that 35 years and when were they? I think those two years were more an anomily that an expectation weren't they? 35 years is a too long time, particularly with an expanded field. Not sure that's going to be corrected by continually flipping coaches unless there's someone extremely promising interested in being next up.

Sometimes you fire only when you have better available. Not just to make a point. As long as GPAs are up and winning is generally predominant, I think our coaches and coaches at most places are generally safe.

Check it out yourself; it is only a google away. I have even done the heavy lifting for you by providing links :

MEN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_Roc...basketball

WOMEN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Americ...Tournament


EDIT: While we are talking NCAA MBB, for all those Rocket football fans who can't understand why Cincinnati got an invitation to the Big East when UT football was arguably better and are now mentioned from time to time as a potential candidate for the Big 12, as a bonus and am including a link to Bearcat basketball. Scroll down to their NCAA MBB history and perhaps it will help explain why the Big East invited the Bearcats but had zero interest in the Rockets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati...basketball

(01-24-2016 02:44 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 11:51 AM)FMRocket Wrote:  To a degree, yes !!
Cullop & K will probably have a 2 year window to rectify things ( meaning at least a divisional title ). After that, I believe MOB will take a long hard look at making changes...
Granted, both coaches have represented the University of Toledo well, but at some point in time, a MAC championship on the horizon should be in order...

Even if both MBB & WBB go .500 the next 2-3 seasons, there is no way in hell that MOB will fire either of them. Zero chance.

I am not an MIT grad or a Rhodes scholar but it seems going .500 the next 2-3 years would detect a downward spiral for both programs, especially since mens b-ball has been coming off a couple 20 win seasons. The maxed out factor may come into play which started this thread. Look, both Cullop and K have done great things, and are well liked in the community and by their peers. Probably MOB will give them both more latitude then other AD's might, but as soon as a significant % of Savage is emptier in the future, due to lack of wins/championships, a change may be warranted.

(01-24-2016 04:48 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  .....So to say the expectation, year in and year out, is to make the NCAA tourny is asinine. To fire a coach who is averaging 20+ wins the last 4 seasons because he hasn't yet made the NCAA tourny is not smart. It's not like we've going to the NCAAT all the time to begin with.

You are the only one I have seen claiming people at UT expect their coach to make the NCAA Tournament year in and year out-----after all this Toledo, not a P5 school or not Cincinnati or any school like that. There is a BIG difference from being competitive for the Tourney title every year and winning it every year----if you need an example, think NIU football.

If I am mistaken about this, please direct me to the specific text that proves me wrong.

(01-24-2016 05:46 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 04:48 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  .....So to say the expectation, year in and year out, is to make the NCAA tourny is asinine. To fire a coach who is averaging 20+ wins the last 4 seasons because he hasn't yet made the NCAA tourny is not smart. It's not like we've going to the NCAAT all the time to begin with.

You are the only one I have seen claiming people at UT expect their coach to make the NCAA Tournament year in and year out-----after all this Toledo, not a P5 school or not Cincinnati or any school like that. There is a BIG difference from being competitive for the Tourney title every year and winning it every year----if you need an example, think NIU football.

If I am mistaken about this, please direct me to the specific text that proves me wrong.

UT has been competitive for the tourney title that past couple years [winning the reg season title & losing in the MACC 1 year, having te 2nd best record in the MAC the next yr & making it to the MAC semi's]. And people are still thinking TK should be fired.

I'm not suggesting firing anybody but something has to change. Playing like the women played yesterday with the talent they have inexcusable. If what we have is not talented then they need to get talent. With the facilities and crowd support there can be no more excuses. Get the phycologists in there. Sit down and have a long talk with the team. Something.

Coach C appears to have a much longer rope than Coach K. Her last 3 to 4 recruiting classes have been mediocre at best. And her development of talent average at best.
Coach K built his last two 20 win seasons on transfers and some average recruiting. This current freshmen class has a chance to be very good. To look at both programs and compare where their headed you would have to be blind to think they aren't headed in different directions. In recruiting and production on the court the last three years haven't been close.
The main issue is the MAC only getting 1 bid to the tournament to only the winner of the league tourney. UT should have had at least one of the last two mens teams in the NCAA tourney if based on their season and not a 3 day competition.
If the football team were to be compared, the wealth of bowl games has saved their face after subpar Novembers and no MACC appearances. Being held to unfair standards of needing to win out in March and comparing growth of the programs is absurd.
Coach C needs to go if she doesn't at least have a semi final appearance in the MAC tourney this year. Her recruiting is weak, and it's showing on the court. Coach K should have two more years to see where this freshmen class is at before hanging a bulls eye on him.

Coach C has the next Naama coming in next season.

(01-24-2016 09:27 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Coach C has the next Naama coming in next season.

The men's team will have a shoot again next season at winning it all. Sanford, Navigato and Rodgers will all be way better next year Adaway and Knapke will be strong contributors next year as well. Look how much better Stuckey, Jon Jon and Garber are this year than they were last year the Northern and Central Point guards are seniors and we will have Steve Taylor playing as well. I expected this to be an up and down year if you didn't you are delusional.