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Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
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nole Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
Lou,
I agree with all your points, but some thoughts:

*Folks refer to the GOR as if it last another 50 years. it doesn't. in 3-5 years, I bet you see an attempt to extend it out. The questions is....what happens then? Is it signed right away?

*I think you somewhat avoid the hard question for FSU of.....it needs the ACC....but it also needs football. And what does FSU do if at some point, the ACC doesn't allow for football to be successful? Hope it never comes to that, but revenue gaps could change things. What if FSU can't keep up with SEC salaries and the GOR extension hits....what does FSU do? Does it still invest the $200-$400 Million it needs to for the stadium issues it has? These are HARD FSU questions that are NEARLY as simple as many suggest they are. I think folks are way oversimplifying these topics (at least for FSU).
01-15-2016 10:28 AM
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Lou_C Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 10:28 AM)nole Wrote:  Lou,
I agree with all your points, but some thoughts:

*Folks refer to the GOR as if it last another 50 years. it doesn't. in 3-5 years, I bet you see an attempt to extend it out. The questions is....what happens then? Is it signed right away?

*I think you somewhat avoid the hard question for FSU of.....it needs the ACC....but it also needs football. And what does FSU do if at some point, the ACC doesn't allow for football to be successful? Hope it never comes to that, but revenue gaps could change things. What if FSU can't keep up with SEC salaries and the GOR extension hits....what does FSU do? Does it still invest the $200-$400 Million it needs to for the stadium issues it has? These are HARD FSU questions that are NEARLY as simple as many suggest they are. I think folks are way oversimplifying these topics (at least for FSU).

Agree on the length of the GOR. In my opinion, FSU likely explored interest from the SEC and B1G, decided they were getting strung along just enough to get Missouri'd, and signed the GOR because the status quo was better than the fallout if they got Missouri'd.

But it doesn't last forever as you said, and time passes more quickly than people want to think about. Which leads into your next question, which is the disturbing one. It's disturbing because no matter how you slice it, FSU does not control it's own destiny. It can't do anything to not be a redundant market in the SEC or to make itself contiguous to the B1G (although at least in theory is could become more academically viable to the B1G I guess).

The only thing that I think FSU can do is position itself as attractive as possible to the B1G, and try to hold status quo for as long as possible until they do. Instability and more realignment is bad news for FSU right now...if you are an FSU fan you do NOT want to see the B1G and SEC divvy up Texas and OU and friends, and make an seemingly insurmountable gap over the ACC even more gigantic.

What you want is to improve your academic profile for the B1G, while hoping the status quo holds long enough that the B1G becomes willing to think out of the box. But if the time comes when B1G finally decides that the brand and market for FSU is the best weapon available to take the SEC head on, especially considering who might be willing to follow...now things get interesting.

First, the moment the B1G takes serious interest in FSU, any opposition in the SEC to adding FSU disappears instantly. There's no way in the world that the SEC wants to deal with that, and I don't even think University of Florida would want that.

But this isn't just an exit plan. I agree with you that FSU would probably most prefer to stay in the ACC. If faced with a scenario where FSU has an invite to the B1G, and will likely be bringing along GT if not UNC and UVA as well...ESPN and Notre Dame have some serious soul-searching to do. Despite cost cutting and what not, can ESPN allow that to happen? Can Notre Dame hold the line knowing that if the day comes when they need to join a conference, they'll be likely forced to take a knee before the B1G?

My guess is that the most desired outcome for FSU would be one in which Notre Dame joins the ACC, ESPN tears up the contract, and partners with NBC on a competitive deal the way they partner with FOX on the Big 12 and PAC.

But all of that is pretty much outside of FSU's control, and they can't be too vocal about it looking around because if something happened before they have B1G leverage, the fallout could be much much worse...not a potential slow decline that they might face now, but an instant armageddon.

Envision a scenario where the B1G adds UT, Kansas, UVA and GT, and the SEC grabs UNC, VT, Duke and Oklahoma.

If that was to happen...game over. One of the top 4-5 programs of the last 30 years is toasted in an instant.
01-15-2016 11:15 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #43
Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-14-2016 08:50 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(01-14-2016 03:20 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  What would FSU prefer in a P4 situation?

1) An ACC with ND all in with Texas & possibly a couple of buddies & a network.

2) Join the Big 12 with 5 ACC friends & a network.

3) Create a new conference with Clemson, ND, Texas, Oklahoma & the best of the rest of those 2 conferences & a network.

Obviously the SEC would be the top choice but I think that only happens in a P3 model. Why? With the top brands going to the SEC, B1G & PAC then the best of the rest conference wouldn't be strong enough to be another power conference.

The only way to a P4 without enormous fallout is megaconferences, which is really just a four division P1. You screw the Big 12 or ACC, and there will be political and legal fallout.

I see no easy way to shift either the Big 12 nucleus of Texas, OU, OKST, TTU, Baylor OR the ACC nucleus of Duke, UNC, NCST, GT, UVA.

It could be done without any fallout. If something happens soon then the B12 will likely be absorbed into the P4. Another way would be by a new conference, most likely after the GOR's but possibly before. With the troubles in the B12 & in the ACC I can FSU, Texas & Oklahoma talking & deciding that a new conference would be in their best interest. Clemson, GT & ND are approached & the idea gains some steam & ESPN backing. NC, Duke & Virginia sees the writing on the wall & begins to look at the offers from the SEC & B1G more seriously. The end result could be;

SEC gets NC St & VT.

BIG gets NC, Duke & Virginia with Nebraska joining Oklahoma & Texas in the new conference.

New conference could be;
South FSU, Clemson, GT, Miami

North ND, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, BC

West Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TT/TCU/Baylor

Central Nebraska, Louisville, WV, Kansas

-Or-

SEC gets NC, Duke & Virginia & Missouri joins the new conference.

B1G gets Kansas & VT.

The new conference could be:
South FSU, Clemson, GT, Miami

North ND, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, BC

West Texas, Oklahoma, Okl State, TT/TCU/Baylor

Central Missouri, Louisville, WV, NC State

This would leave out 2 of TCU/TT/Baylor, Kansas St, Iowa St & WF. The PAC could choose to take 4 to make 4 16 team conferences. ESPN is happy because they get current Fox brands & stop the B1G & Fox eastern expansion while creating another SEC like conference to double their profits. In an 18 team conference model then some G5 would move up.
01-15-2016 11:16 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").
01-15-2016 11:36 AM
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nole Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 11:15 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 10:28 AM)nole Wrote:  Lou,
I agree with all your points, but some thoughts:

*Folks refer to the GOR as if it last another 50 years. it doesn't. in 3-5 years, I bet you see an attempt to extend it out. The questions is....what happens then? Is it signed right away?

*I think you somewhat avoid the hard question for FSU of.....it needs the ACC....but it also needs football. And what does FSU do if at some point, the ACC doesn't allow for football to be successful? Hope it never comes to that, but revenue gaps could change things. What if FSU can't keep up with SEC salaries and the GOR extension hits....what does FSU do? Does it still invest the $200-$400 Million it needs to for the stadium issues it has? These are HARD FSU questions that are NEARLY as simple as many suggest they are. I think folks are way oversimplifying these topics (at least for FSU).

Agree on the length of the GOR. In my opinion, FSU likely explored interest from the SEC and B1G, decided they were getting strung along just enough to get Missouri'd, and signed the GOR because the status quo was better than the fallout if they got Missouri'd.

But it doesn't last forever as you said, and time passes more quickly than people want to think about. Which leads into your next question, which is the disturbing one. It's disturbing because no matter how you slice it, FSU does not control it's own destiny. It can't do anything to not be a redundant market in the SEC or to make itself contiguous to the B1G (although at least in theory is could become more academically viable to the B1G I guess).

The only thing that I think FSU can do is position itself as attractive as possible to the B1G, and try to hold status quo for as long as possible until they do. Instability and more realignment is bad news for FSU right now...if you are an FSU fan you do NOT want to see the B1G and SEC divvy up Texas and OU and friends, and make an seemingly insurmountable gap over the ACC even more gigantic.

What you want is to improve your academic profile for the B1G, while hoping the status quo holds long enough that the B1G becomes willing to think out of the box. But if the time comes when B1G finally decides that the brand and market for FSU is the best weapon available to take the SEC head on, especially considering who might be willing to follow...now things get interesting.

First, the moment the B1G takes serious interest in FSU, any opposition in the SEC to adding FSU disappears instantly. There's no way in the world that the SEC wants to deal with that, and I don't even think University of Florida would want that.

But this isn't just an exit plan. I agree with you that FSU would probably most prefer to stay in the ACC. If faced with a scenario where FSU has an invite to the B1G, and will likely be bringing along GT if not UNC and UVA as well...ESPN and Notre Dame have some serious soul-searching to do. Despite cost cutting and what not, can ESPN allow that to happen? Can Notre Dame hold the line knowing that if the day comes when they need to join a conference, they'll be likely forced to take a knee before the B1G?

My guess is that the most desired outcome for FSU would be one in which Notre Dame joins the ACC, ESPN tears up the contract, and partners with NBC on a competitive deal the way they partner with FOX on the Big 12 and PAC.

But all of that is pretty much outside of FSU's control, and they can't be too vocal about it looking around because if something happened before they have B1G leverage, the fallout could be much much worse...not a potential slow decline that they might face now, but an instant armageddon.

Envision a scenario where the B1G adds UT, Kansas, UVA and GT, and the SEC grabs UNC, VT, Duke and Oklahoma.

If that was to happen...game over. One of the top 4-5 programs of the last 30 years is toasted in an instant.


Lou,
Again, I agree. Where FSU DOES have a decision to make while waiting is.....does it continue to spend millions that it has been investing and continue with MASSIVE (needed, not wanted) stadium renovations?

FSU is, in fact, rolling the dice right now....and will be doubling down on rolling the dice with further massive investments. There is no...."neutral" for FSU now. There is no situation where it isn't gambling right now....and it has further gambles to make. Doing nothing is a gamble (a HUGE one) and investing more is a gamble (a huge one).

Hell, my booster level donations just doubled for this coming year. I gladly pay it, but I wonder how the big picture goes and how long FSU can sustain the revenue gap that is only getting bigger.
01-15-2016 11:51 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #46
Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 11:16 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(01-14-2016 08:50 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(01-14-2016 03:20 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  What would FSU prefer in a P4 situation?

1) An ACC with ND all in with Texas & possibly a couple of buddies & a network.

2) Join the Big 12 with 5 ACC friends & a network.

3) Create a new conference with Clemson, ND, Texas, Oklahoma & the best of the rest of those 2 conferences & a network.

Obviously the SEC would be the top choice but I think that only happens in a P3 model. Why? With the top brands going to the SEC, B1G & PAC then the best of the rest conference wouldn't be strong enough to be another power conference.

The only way to a P4 without enormous fallout is megaconferences, which is really just a four division P1. You screw the Big 12 or ACC, and there will be political and legal fallout.

I see no easy way to shift either the Big 12 nucleus of Texas, OU, OKST, TTU, Baylor OR the ACC nucleus of Duke, UNC, NCST, GT, UVA.

It could be done without any fallout. If something happens soon then the B12 will likely be absorbed into the P4. Another way would be by a new conference, most likely after the GOR's but possibly before. With the troubles in the B12 & in the ACC I can FSU, Texas & Oklahoma talking & deciding that a new conference would be in their best interest. Clemson, GT & ND are approached & the idea gains some steam & ESPN backing. NC, Duke & Virginia sees the writing on the wall & begins to look at the offers from the SEC & B1G more seriously. The end result could be;

SEC gets NC St & VT.

BIG gets NC, Duke & Virginia with Nebraska joining Oklahoma & Texas in the new conference.

New conference could be;
South FSU, Clemson, GT, Miami

North ND, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, BC

West Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TT/TCU/Baylor

Central Nebraska, Louisville, WV, Kansas

-Or-

SEC gets NC, Duke & Virginia & Missouri joins the new conference.

B1G gets Kansas & VT.

The new conference could be:
South FSU, Clemson, GT, Miami

North ND, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, BC

West Texas, Oklahoma, Okl State, TT/TCU/Baylor

Central Missouri, Louisville, WV, NC State

This would leave out 2 of TCU/TT/Baylor, Kansas St, Iowa St & WF. The PAC could choose to take 4 to make 4 16 team conferences. ESPN is happy because they get current Fox brands & stop the B1G & Fox eastern expansion while creating another SEC like conference to double their profits. In an 18 team conference model then some G5 would move up.

On a different board we had a discussion about the rumors/speculation of UCONN acting as a broker for legal reasons & a P4 spot. With a P4 & a champs only CFP, forcing ND all in, with UCONN in the ACC with Texas & the LHN, I came up with this.

ACC: adds ND all in, Texas, Baylor, UCONN, Cincinnati & WV for 18.

SEC: adds VT & NC St for 16.

B1G: adds Oklahoma & Oklahoma St to preserve the rivalry & reconnect with Nebraska.

PAC: adds another 6 team division for 18. Kansas, K State, TT, TCU, Houston & Iowa State.

So the ACC & PAC have 18 while the SEC & B1G have 16.

ACC
Central: Texas, Baylor, Louisville, Cincinnati, Miami, WF

South: FSU, Clemson, GT, NC, Duke, Virginia

North: ND, Pitt, Syracuse, BC, UCONN, WV

SEC
Florida, Georgia, VT, NC State

Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi, Miss State

Tennessee, S Carolina, Vandy, UK

A&M, LSU, Arkansas, Missouri

B1G
Oklahoma, Okl State, Nebraska, Iowa

Ohio State, Michigan, Mich St, Purdue

Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Nwestern

Penn St, Maryland, Rutgers, Indiana

Giving UCONN a spot adds 3 to the power conferences but gives the PAC a decent eastern division with a sizable Texas market. The ACC promotes 2 G5, loses 2 but gains 2 top brands & a network. The B1G gets Oklahoma but gets a tag along while the SEC expands their market.

Another possibility would be that the could ACC get ND all in, UCONN & trades VT for WV (if necessary) for 16.

PAC gets Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Iowa State & TT.

The SEC can have the combo of Texas/Kansas St or Kansas/VT(WV) The B1G would get the other. Baylor & TCU are left out. This gives us a P4 x 16. Or if necessary then those 2 would go to the ACC.
01-15-2016 12:06 PM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #47
Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").

For equal money & to reconnect with rivals, it's possible.
01-15-2016 12:12 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 12:12 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").

For equal money & to reconnect with rivals, it's possible.

I'm with Lenny. For arguments sake, assume that the the SEC adds Baylor and WVU (and probably switches MIZZOU and Auburn) to reach 16. Wouldn't it make more sense to split into two conferences with a scheduling alliance. That would allow for 2 CCG's (now that it's been deregulated), 2 basketball tourneys, an extra BCS bowl, and potentially two undefeated teams. Both conferences could share a TV contract and a bowl pool/proceeds (i.e. joint negotiations). I don't see how that doesn't make everyone involved better off.

Even the SEC is subject to change.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2016 02:25 PM by nzmorange.)
01-15-2016 02:16 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
I think that all these monster conferences will be torn up.
01-15-2016 02:18 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
A Great Depression in The SEC would be Wal-Mart closing a bunch of stores.....03-lmfao

(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2016 02:22 PM by CardinalJim.)
01-15-2016 02:22 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 02:22 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  A Great Depression in The SEC would be Wal-Mart closing a bunch of stores.....03-lmfao

(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").

http://www.wsj.com/articles/wal-mart-to-...1452868122


269 stores globally
102 stores in the US
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2016 02:44 PM by XLance.)
01-15-2016 02:43 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 02:43 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 02:22 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  A Great Depression in The SEC would be Wal-Mart closing a bunch of stores.....03-lmfao

(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").

http://www.wsj.com/articles/wal-mart-to-...1452868122


269 stores globally
102 stores in the US

I know Jim was joking, but the HQ is in Arkansas...
01-15-2016 03:02 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 03:02 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 02:43 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 02:22 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  A Great Depression in The SEC would be Wal-Mart closing a bunch of stores.....03-lmfao

(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").

http://www.wsj.com/articles/wal-mart-to-...1452868122


269 stores globally
102 stores in the US

I know Jim was joking, but the HQ is in Arkansas...

Walmargeddon!
01-15-2016 05:35 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-15-2016 05:35 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 03:02 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 02:43 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-15-2016 02:22 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  A Great Depression in The SEC would be Wal-Mart closing a bunch of stores.....03-lmfao

(01-15-2016 11:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  No team will EVER leave the Big Ten or SEC unless there is MAJOR MAYHEM (I'm talking something like another Great Depression, with universities going bankrupt an stuff like that - not just a mere "realignment").

http://www.wsj.com/articles/wal-mart-to-...1452868122


269 stores globally
102 stores in the US

I know Jim was joking, but the HQ is in Arkansas...

Walmargeddon!

I hate to bust your bubbles (not really) but Walmart is closing stores to flush their war chest. You see they don't locate stores in states unless they get perks. Have you ever noticed how after about 7 years a Super Center will close and a new one will open just a few miles down the road. Well, there is a really big reason for that. The perk the S.O.B.'s get is that they get to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until their building is paid for. Once the building is about compensated they move down the road, keep the old property for its tax payer contributed corporate property value, and then they either rent it or wait until corporate real estate values peak to sell it. Meanwhile your state cuts the same deals to Lowe's, Home Depot, Best Buy, Bed Bath & Beyond, and others of their ilk to attract "new jobs". Those big box stores actually cost the local economies they locate in jobs. How? Because Mom & Pop who paid their employees better wages, provided benefits, and paid their full share of taxes have been run out of business by the 13 point advantage on taxes alone that a Wal Mart and others get to locate because they greased the hands of local and state politicians to come in.

Gone are local pharmacies, local hardware stores, local clothing stores, local grocery stores, local sporting goods stores, local book stores, local appliance stores, local sewing stores, local garden supply centers, and on and on. Those new big box stores not only get to keep the state's portion of the sales tax but they also get a 50% break on the local property taxes or they won't locate.

And sorry guys, but it happens in North Carolina, South Carolina and Kentucky and every where else outside of the SEC. That's why some European countries have kicked some of their butts out.

Those jobs they promised all utilize personnel less than 32 hours a week, the insurance they offer is only supplemental, and the other benefits are practically nil. There are usually about 6 to 8 full time employees at a Super Center who are actually salaried. The store manager and assistant store managers, the head cashier, and managers in receiving, but none of them make over 50,000 and most of them in the 20's.

So you see when they close locations that means they are already paid up. When they sell those locations it means they have received a total profit on no investment other than their time.

Now go away, check out the truth, and get a little wiser. You see Wal Mart knows since they are global, that a global depression is just getting started. Oil is down for a variety of reasons, but chief among them is that demand is down. Your highways are still thriving, but they aren't in Asia and other parts of the world. I don't know yet how deeply it will affect us, but we will all feel it. In the meantime Wal Mart is doing what every super wealthy entity will do. They are building up their cash reserves so that when the bottom falls out on things they can buy even more, and more cheaply at that.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2016 09:59 PM by JRsec.)
01-16-2016 09:52 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
How come nobody ever gets made at Apple and their cash reserves? Think they don't use slave labor to make Billions and hold pools of cash?

Same with Nike, Microsoft, etc,, etc.

If the left loves you you get a pass.....if you are conservative from Ark, the skewer you.

At the end of the day....nobody has principals.....just political teams they root for called Dem/Rep.

Not an attack JRsec, you are a solid poster, but I find the subject distasteful and dishonest.
01-16-2016 11:22 PM
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CardinalJim Online
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Post: #56
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
Let's get this straight if Walmart closed its stores in The SEC they'd be a bunch of naked Bubbas running around. Now that would Walmargeddon




ACC fans went to ACC Schools
SEC fans went to Walmart......everybody in Kentucky knows that
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2016 11:44 PM by CardinalJim.)
01-16-2016 11:40 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-16-2016 11:22 PM)nole Wrote:  How come nobody ever gets made at Apple and their cash reserves? Think they don't use slave labor to make Billions and hold pools of cash?

Same with Nike, Microsoft, etc,, etc.

If the left loves you you get a pass.....if you are conservative from Ark, the skewer you.

At the end of the day....nobody has principals.....just political teams they root for called Dem/Rep.

Not an attack JRsec, you are a solid poster, but I find the subject distasteful and dishonest.

LOL! I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. I didn't say the other's weren't corrupt. But I witnessed the other in my first life, and back when Wal Mart was a more wholesome company than it is today.

Democrats and Republicans are paid for by the same corporate money. It's true one wears blue and the other red on election day, but they all get their green from the same pockets and they don't work for us. They give you issues like pro gay / anti gay, pro gun / anti gun, pro abortion / pro life, etc, etc, etc, but all of those issues are the fodder for the masses so that they believe when they go to the polls and vote they have made a difference. Meanwhile back at the Hill it is business as usual for conglomerates and their lobbyists.

So while you find the subject "distasteful and dishonest" I just find it is more than the average American wants to digest. The reason is simple. Either most of us, or our children or grandchildren have to earn a living for one of those giants of trade and to speak out against them at a time when almost everything we say or do is recorded makes us fearful, if not for ourselves, for our loved ones. Now that's honest, but still very distasteful. I just hope someday we collectively have the guts to deal with it, but in a way that is legal and peaceful.

BTW for disclosure purposes I am a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian. I believe in a strong national defense and the rights guaranteed to the citizens by the constitution, and the obligation of the citizens to support their government through their involvement in the process. What I don't believe in are 30 second sound bites to influence the masses instead of in depth explanations of complex problems which the public needs in order to be better informed if they are to make informed decisions as its citizens. I can't believe what the election process has turned into today. But I won't trouble this thread with more. It's just that the Wal Mart remark was inflammatory and I saw it as an opportunity to inform.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2016 12:25 AM by JRsec.)
01-17-2016 12:06 AM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
Personally I don't see the B12 imploding, but there is obvious a lot of smoke courtesy of Boren. So, assuming I am wrong and both OU and UT move resulting then in only 4 power conferences with ND remaining independent...

Let's assume the worse case scenario where the B1G and SEC somehow divvy up Texas and Oklahoma between them to bring about the massive discrepancy between them and the ACC and the PAC.

The fact remains that the ACC and the PAC will remain while the leftover B12 teams not taken as part of whatever expansion results from the above moves will limp along in a similar fashion as the Big East football schools did via the AAC.

The ACC becomes the SEC's Sugar Bowl partner by default. This by itself is a significant improvement in terms of what is happening now for the conference.

As long as no significant ACC team moves as #16 with OU or UT as part of this expansion, the ACC may actually be better off. Will it be significantly behind the B1G and the SEC in terms of $$$. Yes, but they are now.

Will the ACC actually be even or slightly ahead of the PAC, which they may or may not be now in terms of $$$. Yes.

But the ACC survives as a power conference in this scenario, whereas the B12 did not.

The key thing I guess I am saying is that this isn't the end of the world for ACC teams or programs. Now the SEC taking VT and NC State and the B1G taking UNC and UVa, now that would mark the end of the ACC. But something else could possibly replace it that would be better.

Cheers,
Neil
01-17-2016 05:43 AM
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nole Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-17-2016 05:43 AM)omniorange Wrote:  Personally I don't see the B12 imploding, but there is obvious a lot of smoke courtesy of Boren. So, assuming I am wrong and both OU and UT move resulting then in only 4 power conferences with ND remaining independent...

Let's assume the worse case scenario where the B1G and SEC somehow divvy up Texas and Oklahoma between them to bring about the massive discrepancy between them and the ACC and the PAC.

The fact remains that the ACC and the PAC will remain while the leftover B12 teams not taken as part of whatever expansion results from the above moves will limp along in a similar fashion as the Big East football schools did via the AAC.

The ACC becomes the SEC's Sugar Bowl partner by default. This by itself is a significant improvement in terms of what is happening now for the conference.

As long as no significant ACC team moves as #16 with OU or UT as part of this expansion, the ACC may actually be better off. Will it be significantly behind the B1G and the SEC in terms of $$$. Yes, but they are now.

Will the ACC actually be even or slightly ahead of the PAC, which they may or may not be now in terms of $$$. Yes.

But the ACC survives as a power conference in this scenario, whereas the B12 did not.

The key thing I guess I am saying is that this isn't the end of the world for ACC teams or programs. Now the SEC taking VT and NC State and the B1G taking UNC and UVa, now that would mark the end of the ACC. But something else could possibly replace it that would be better.

Cheers,
Neil


I agree, it's possible the ACC comes out better. As Lou has stated, it is also possible the ACC comes out worse off.

Any raiding of a VA or NC school is the end of the ACC IMHO.

Personally, I don't think it is the ACC vs the Big 12. I think the future of CFB might just be the PAC 12 due to their geographical isolation to the other conferences and a HUGE SEC/BIG.


The dead weight of the ACC can't be carried much longer. I think the ultra competitiveness out of the SEC/BIG is making this more of an issue honestly. I suspect it is only a matter of time for schools that really aren't in the game unless they are already in the SEC/B1G.
01-17-2016 07:54 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Do ACC fans think a conference network was promised for the GOR?
(01-17-2016 05:43 AM)omniorange Wrote:  Personally I don't see the B12 imploding, but there is obvious a lot of smoke courtesy of Boren. So, assuming I am wrong and both OU and UT move resulting then in only 4 power conferences with ND remaining independent...

Let's assume the worse case scenario where the B1G and SEC somehow divvy up Texas and Oklahoma between them to bring about the massive discrepancy between them and the ACC and the PAC.

The fact remains that the ACC and the PAC will remain while the leftover B12 teams not taken as part of whatever expansion results from the above moves will limp along in a similar fashion as the Big East football schools did via the AAC.

The ACC becomes the SEC's Sugar Bowl partner by default. This by itself is a significant improvement in terms of what is happening now for the conference.

As long as no significant ACC team moves as #16 with OU or UT as part of this expansion, the ACC may actually be better off. Will it be significantly behind the B1G and the SEC in terms of $$$. Yes, but they are now.

Will the ACC actually be even or slightly ahead of the PAC, which they may or may not be now in terms of $$$. Yes.

But the ACC survives as a power conference in this scenario, whereas the B12 did not.

The key thing I guess I am saying is that this isn't the end of the world for ACC teams or programs. Now the SEC taking VT and NC State and the B1G taking UNC and UVa, now that would mark the end of the ACC. But something else could possibly replace it that would be better.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil, I think that scenario is possible if the PAC not only remains intact, but as you alluded to, but did not state, the PAC also remains the independent owner of the PACN. Should they sell a portion of their network to a major corporate network then they too would likely be involved in some of the raiding of the Big 12 for those central time zone slots if nothing else. Why? Their new partners would want those slots and would pay for them. It would no longer be a matter of PAC presidents weighing the value of second state schools from mid western states. If the PAC grows at all it increases the pressure for the ACC to do the same and to do so perhaps with less than ideal candidates, a scenario not unlike the one facing the Big 12 today.

I think one of the better stances by an ACC poster I've heard regarding the present situation (outside of your analysis of the permutations) is that of Esayem who says he has reconciled himself to the fact that the ACC doesn't have to remain as it was for his grandfather. If more people felt that way it would open to door to alternatives and deals that could be worked that would ensure your standing.

I posted and thought that 4 years ago we should have been working proactively to parse the Big 12 between our two conferences and have been open on the possibility of an SEC school and an ACC school being in position to switch between us to make that more feasible. Our past ability to work somewhat more closely with one another has been a strength that the Big 10 can't match. I think it is still the key to our mutual future success, especially as streaming emerges to replace present cable models.

I still believe that the ACC should try to offer a Western division to Texas. The only problem now is ESPN's willingness to sink cash into that venture, which if taken when it was offered in 2010 would have secured your future and your revenue.
01-17-2016 09:22 AM
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