(12-30-2015 05:15 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote: Firm there is no perfect world. There are much worse cases of police conduct. Cop saw him reaching into his waist for a gun. Dispatch
told them a guy was hanging at the park Rec Center pointing a gun at people. There isn't time for a polite conversation.
Agreed. I thought the incident in Paradise CA was far more egregious
(12-30-2015 04:32 PM)firmbizzle Wrote: They used a car for distraction. There was a case in California where cops thought a guy was robbing a bank and did the same thing. Driving toward somebody isn't going disorient them.
It isn't? You are standing there shooting someone when a car comes out of nowhere to within feet of you and you wouldn't be disoriented?
Quote:One could argue that the cops put themselves in more harm doing that.
Of course they did, but when you make the decision to intervene to save a life you always put yourself in more harm. On both of my saves I put myself in more harm when I made the determination to enter the structure to effect the rescue. For that matter in every structure fire I fought interior I put myself in more harm than if I took the safe way out. When you work in public safety you make those decisions, most of the time in a matter of seconds. Lucky for me I don't have the uneducated public second guessing every time I did it like law enforcement does.
Quote:Are they going to shoot out of the car or through the windshield.
If the situation required it yes they would have, but from the video it appears they were going to get out of the vehicle and apprehend the suspect. That plan changed when Rice pulls up his shirt and reaches for the gun. At that point you as a law enforcement officer have two choices: 1. shoot and live or 2. Wait and die.
Quote:I'm trying to understand the logic. Almost better to just run the person over, I've seen that too.
As I stated above, with the knowledge gained from the prosecutor I wouldn't have done what they did, but I'm making that determination 404 days after the incident with a lot more information at hand than they had the opportunity to do so.
As for running them over, ask a couple former SC Troopers what happens when you hit black people with patrol cars in the era of the Obama Justice Dept.
What are Rice's options here? What is he suppose to do? You are laying out the officer's choices but again they put themselves in that situation forcing Rice to make a split second decision.
Raise his hands and nobody outside of him, the officers, and his parents likely know of this incident.
Unrealistic expectation. That's not a natural human reaction to shock.
(12-30-2015 04:32 PM)firmbizzle Wrote: They used a car for distraction. There was a case in California where cops thought a guy was robbing a bank and did the same thing. Driving toward somebody isn't going disorient them.
It isn't? You are standing there shooting someone when a car comes out of nowhere to within feet of you and you wouldn't be disoriented?
Quote:One could argue that the cops put themselves in more harm doing that.
Of course they did, but when you make the decision to intervene to save a life you always put yourself in more harm. On both of my saves I put myself in more harm when I made the determination to enter the structure to effect the rescue. For that matter in every structure fire I fought interior I put myself in more harm than if I took the safe way out. When you work in public safety you make those decisions, most of the time in a matter of seconds. Lucky for me I don't have the uneducated public second guessing every time I did it like law enforcement does.
Quote:Are they going to shoot out of the car or through the windshield.
If the situation required it yes they would have, but from the video it appears they were going to get out of the vehicle and apprehend the suspect. That plan changed when Rice pulls up his shirt and reaches for the gun. At that point you as a law enforcement officer have two choices: 1. shoot and live or 2. Wait and die.
Quote:I'm trying to understand the logic. Almost better to just run the person over, I've seen that too.
As I stated above, with the knowledge gained from the prosecutor I wouldn't have done what they did, but I'm making that determination 404 days after the incident with a lot more information at hand than they had the opportunity to do so.
As for running them over, ask a couple former SC Troopers what happens when you hit black people with patrol cars in the era of the Obama Justice Dept.
What are Rice's options here? What is he suppose to do? You are laying out the officer's choices but again they put themselves in that situation forcing Rice to make a split second decision.
Raise his hands and nobody outside of him, the officers, and his parents likely know of this incident.
Unrealistic expectation. That's not a natural human reaction to shock.
Yet pulling up your shirt and reaching for a toy gun is?
I didn't pay any attention to this whole story. I assume it is another demand for mob justice? That seems to be all that the black lives matter group is interested in.
(12-30-2015 04:51 PM)Kaplony Wrote: It isn't? You are standing there shooting someone when a car comes out of nowhere to within feet of you and you wouldn't be disoriented?
Of course they did, but when you make the decision to intervene to save a life you always put yourself in more harm. On both of my saves I put myself in more harm when I made the determination to enter the structure to effect the rescue. For that matter in every structure fire I fought interior I put myself in more harm than if I took the safe way out. When you work in public safety you make those decisions, most of the time in a matter of seconds. Lucky for me I don't have the uneducated public second guessing every time I did it like law enforcement does.
If the situation required it yes they would have, but from the video it appears they were going to get out of the vehicle and apprehend the suspect. That plan changed when Rice pulls up his shirt and reaches for the gun. At that point you as a law enforcement officer have two choices: 1. shoot and live or 2. Wait and die.
As I stated above, with the knowledge gained from the prosecutor I wouldn't have done what they did, but I'm making that determination 404 days after the incident with a lot more information at hand than they had the opportunity to do so.
As for running them over, ask a couple former SC Troopers what happens when you hit black people with patrol cars in the era of the Obama Justice Dept.
What are Rice's options here? What is he suppose to do? You are laying out the officer's choices but again they put themselves in that situation forcing Rice to make a split second decision.
Raise his hands and nobody outside of him, the officers, and his parents likely know of this incident.
Unrealistic expectation. That's not a natural human reaction to shock.
Yet pulling up your shirt and reaching for a toy gun is?
Showing the officers that it wasn't a real gun is. Eyewitnesses also say that Loehmann didn't tell him to put his hands up. What do you expect to happen when trying to employ these shock and awe tactics?
(12-30-2015 05:06 PM)firmbizzle Wrote: What are Rice's options here? What is he suppose to do? You are laying out the officer's choices but again they put themselves in that situation forcing Rice to make a split second decision.
Raise his hands and nobody outside of him, the officers, and his parents likely know of this incident.
Unrealistic expectation. That's not a natural human reaction to shock.
Yet pulling up your shirt and reaching for a toy gun is?
Showing the officers that it wasn't a real gun is. Eyewitnesses also say that Loehmann didn't tell him to put his hands up. What do you expect to happen when trying to employ these shock and awe tactics?
Well it's obvious you have your mind made up and despite case law and facts proving your stance wrong aren't going to change it.
(12-30-2015 05:14 PM)Kaplony Wrote: Raise his hands and nobody outside of him, the officers, and his parents likely know of this incident.
Unrealistic expectation. That's not a natural human reaction to shock.
Yet pulling up your shirt and reaching for a toy gun is?
Showing the officers that it wasn't a real gun is. Eyewitnesses also say that Loehmann didn't tell him to put his hands up. What do you expect to happen when trying to employ these shock and awe tactics?
Well it's obvious you have your mind made up and despite case law and facts proving your stance wrong aren't going to change it.
I have my mind made up about these type of police tactics. The system is corrupt, the law just covers up mistakes.
(12-30-2015 05:15 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote: Firm there is no perfect world. There are much worse cases of police conduct. Cop saw him reaching into his waist for a gun. Dispatch
told them a guy was hanging at the park Rec Center pointing a gun at people. There isn't time for a polite conversation.
(12-30-2015 06:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I didn't pay any attention to this whole story. I assume it is another demand for mob justice? That seems to be all that the black lives matter group is interested in.
No mob justice just wave after wave of grand juries to be convened until a "just" outcome happens.
OMG...too many people here went to college for this to be "the case" to get all angry about. Mistakes were made, no doubt. But, officers rolled up, as they were trained, on an incident involving a person engaging other citizens with a gun. As they pull up, the person pulls the gun and they shot him. Also, his age doesn't matter either. I grew up in a bad neighborhood and 12 yr olds with guns wasn't all that unique. Regardless, I'm not sure not what you can base a complaint against either the officers or the DA upon.
Now, if we step back, we could blame the dispatcher. Yes, better training would go a long way. Converse to what happened, the situation could have been that the dispatcher forgot to tell officers someone had a gun as well and that could lead to a bad result as well.
BUT WE CANNOT ALWAYS JUST BLAME POLICE. SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO BLAME PARENTS. This kid's parents thought it was okay for their youngster to brandish a real looking gun outside of a rec center in a bad neighborhood. And let's be clear, this 12 yr old isn't carrying this gun tucked in his pants like a gangster to go shooting at a paper target or even vermin...at best he probably thought it was cool to carry and at worst, he was one of many kids in these neighborhoods that go around with these real looking guns to cause trouble.
IMO, the focus of many of these "protests" should be directed at the young Black kids in these communities and also on introducing proper parenting. If there are young boys and girls that are interested in target practice, then fine. Let's do it in a controlled environment with safety classes and adult supervision. But, this incident does not happen if this kid doesn't have realistic looking gun and no supervision or safety training with regard to his handling of it.
(01-03-2016 08:32 AM)firmbizzle Wrote: No sometimes the police need to be blamed.
We are talking Tamir here...but I'll play.
A man goes to Walmart and takes a gun (realistic looking AR airsoft BB rifle) OUT OF THE BOX. Then he walks through the store with it. The footage has many gaps and witnesses say he was brandishing it and pointing it at people (these people have no idea where this gun came from and it looks real). The police respond. From the audio it appears words were exchanged (my guess, "put the gun down" from the garbled audio). The guy doesn't comply and is shot. That is a good shoot.
I BLAME THE GUY. Only a fool would take a gun out of a box and walk about a store pointing it at people and then not drop it when police respond.
Sometimes the police do the wrong thing...but this also isn't the case.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 03:30 PM by pharaoh0.)
(01-03-2016 03:44 PM)firmbizzle Wrote: Always an excuse.
Nah. People need to take responsibility for their actions. IMO, before you start blaming someone else, you need to look at the man (or woman) in the mirror.
I think you can contrast these two scenarios with the guy who was in SC (Levar Jones). He was pulled at a gas station for a seat belt violation. The cop asked for his license and the guy reached on his seat for his wallet and got shot.
True, the guy made a few mistakes when dealing with cops. However, there was nothing that he did or anything related to the nature of his stop that gave the officer the right use lethal force against him. In that case, the cop was very wrong.
(01-03-2016 08:32 AM)firmbizzle Wrote: No sometimes the police need to be blamed.
We are talking Tamir here...but I'll play.
A man goes to Walmart and takes a gun (realistic looking AR airsoft BB rifle) OUT OF THE BOX. Then he walks through the store with it. The footage has many gaps and witnesses say he was brandishing it and pointing it at people (these people have no idea where this gun came from and it looks real). The police respond. From the audio it appears words were exchanged (my guess, "put the gun down" from the garbled audio). The guy doesn't comply and is shot. That is a good shoot.
I BLAME THE GUY. Only a fool would take a gun out of a box and walk about a store pointing it at people and then not drop it when police respond.
Sometimes the police do the wrong thing...but this also isn't the case.
This is not one to blame the guy. There was no one else around the guy so they did not have to run up on him so fast as to make it a shoot or die scenario.
