(12-15-2015 07:38 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 01:50 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Wayne State Michigan and Case Western Reserves were former founding members of the MAC as well. Wayne State dropped to D2 when they 1st divide in the NCAA which Case Western Reserves dropped to D3. Case Western Reserve. Case Western Reserve is the only AAU school. If they stayed with FBS at D1? They could have grown their stadium and facilities, and might be a member of the Big 10 in the future.

There was no Division I, II, or III back then. After World War II, most MAC members were still considered small colleges, the equivalent of today's Division II/III. I doubt Wayne State was ever considered a major, and I'm skeptical about Western Reserve.

Also, the school was Western Reserve University, so named because Northeast Ohio was once claimed by Connecticut as its "western reserve." Western Reserve merged with the Case Institute in the late 1960s.

Also...

DavidSt Wrote:I am surprise that MAC would not trade out Kent State for Youngstown State.

Kent State has been a member of the MAC since the 1950s and it offers more academic prestige than Youngstown State. Such a trade would be highly unlikely.

Case Western Reserves was a merger of two schools. Case Western Reserves back then had a history of making major bowl games that are still going today that is considered P5 bowls. Case Western Reserves is an AAU, and they are bigger than Northwestern with over 10,000 students with graduate and undergraduate. They are ranked high enough that they could be a Big 10 candidate. Their endowment is $1.7 billion. Being in Cleveland could help in media markets. If they stayed in as a major university? They would be D1 FBS instead of D3. I think they should get a waiver and join the Pioneer League for football, and they could fit somewhere for the rest of their sports. They have 10 men's sports and 9 women's. They may have to drop a men's sport and add a women's, but they do offer enough sports to be considered D1.

(12-16-2015 01:50 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 10:45 PM)westernwilly Wrote:  MU was the Boise St of the late 1990s and early 2000s.

This is quite a large exaggeration. They finished 2 seasons ranked: 1999 and 2002. In 2003 they were 8-4 including a loss to 6-6 Troy.

(12-15-2015 10:45 PM)westernwilly Wrote:  
Everyone in the country new who they where and believed that it was only a matter of time before they moved to a BCS conference.

The highlighted part is more due to Matthew McConaughey than anything else. Few people thought they would end up in a BCS conference - they're a very small school (16k today) with one of the smallest endowments in D1.

Marshall expanded their stadium to 38,000 following an undefeated 1999 season. Some at the time thought they might make a decent Big East candidate. They had a rabid traveling crowd that would be larger than the home crowd in visiting MAC stadiums.

The CUSA Marshall did agree to had TCU, Memphis, ECU and SoMiss which was a power at the time. It was not far in strength from the BE when it reloaded. TCU quickly left replaced by UTEP. There was still basketball money in that league held over from CUSA 1.0 days and then with Memphis deep tourney runs. If CUSA 2.0 stayed together through 2015 that is where the big G5 football season would of happened.

CUSA 3.0 messed up its geography by doubling down in Florida with FAU. Arkansas State would have made more sense upping the football strength of the league.

With UTEP and Rice talking to the Mountain West, the entire CUSA Marshall joined could be gone except UAB and Southern Miss. It IS the Sun Belt. Now if CUSA's TV contract also becomes the Sun Belt, then Marshall will be calling the MAC back up. Could save a ton of travel expenses and get more revenue from the MAC. Of course ESPN would have to agree to pick up the tab for Marshall moving to the MAC.

Id be very concerned if I was in CUSA right now with little interest from TV partners, start up members, and Rice and UTEP looking for an exit. CUSA basketball has also been around the 20th ranked conference the last 2 seasons.

(12-15-2015 08:01 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 07:38 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

DavidSt Wrote:I am surprise that MAC would not trade out Kent State for Youngstown State.

Kent State has been a member of the MAC since the 1950s and it offers more academic prestige than Youngstown State. Such a trade would be highly unlikely.

Also, the MAC is not a FB-only conference ... peak at current NCAA RPI, and you'll see that Kent St is #76, while Youngstown is #262. The MAC is not going to build its BBall status by kicking out schools that are often above #100, replacing them with schools that are often below #200 ... heck, it only has two schools with an RPI above 100 right now, and its got five below 200.

Basketball is not the main moneymaker in FBS sports. It is football. The MAC have several schools that have always preformed below everybody else including Kent State. Youngstown State, Illinois State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Delaware, Liberty and James Madison could bring some strength in football. Even New Hampshire could be brought in as all sports to bring U. Mass. in for all sports.

(12-16-2015 02:22 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 07:38 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 01:50 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Wayne State Michigan and Case Western Reserves were former founding members of the MAC as well. Wayne State dropped to D2 when they 1st divide in the NCAA which Case Western Reserves dropped to D3. Case Western Reserve. Case Western Reserve is the only AAU school. If they stayed with FBS at D1? They could have grown their stadium and facilities, and might be a member of the Big 10 in the future.

There was no Division I, II, or III back then. After World War II, most MAC members were still considered small colleges, the equivalent of today's Division II/III. I doubt Wayne State was ever considered a major, and I'm skeptical about Western Reserve.

Also, the school was Western Reserve University, so named because Northeast Ohio was once claimed by Connecticut as its "western reserve." Western Reserve merged with the Case Institute in the late 1960s.

Also...

DavidSt Wrote:I am surprise that MAC would not trade out Kent State for Youngstown State.

Kent State has been a member of the MAC since the 1950s and it offers more academic prestige than Youngstown State. Such a trade would be highly unlikely.

Case Western Reserves was a merger of two schools. Case Western Reserves back then had a history of making major bowl games that are still going today that is considered P5 bowls. Case Western Reserves is an AAU, and they are bigger than Northwestern with over 10,000 students with graduate and undergraduate. They are ranked high enough that they could be a Big 10 candidate. Their endowment is $1.7 billion. Being in Cleveland could help in media markets. If they stayed in as a major university? They would be D1 FBS instead of D3. I think they should get a waiver and join the Pioneer League for football, and they could fit somewhere for the rest of their sports. They have 10 men's sports and 9 women's. They may have to drop a men's sport and add a women's, but they do offer enough sports to be considered D1.

Case Western has about as much chance as Cleveland State having FBS Football: Zero

News flash: Cleveland may be a good size market, but unless you are Ohio State or one of the High Schools, you get no exposure basically locally at all.

(12-15-2015 08:10 PM)polkhigh Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 07:27 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 01:05 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 03:23 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 12:11 PM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  Discuss.

Same reason the SEC, Pac12, and Big Ten haven't had any defections. Everyone there is happy and the conference makes sense geographically.

Marshall and UCF have left

But UCF was FB-only, so they were never fully in the conference.

Marshall is the exception that "proves" (ie, tests) the rule (everyone is happy and the conference makes sense geographically). The only full members that have left the MAC since the 1960's are NIU once, who was unhappy with limited FB scholarships ... but limited FB scholarships went away and NIU came back ... and Marshall, twice.

Marshall looks on a map like it made sense geographically, but social geography matters too, and they are happier in the mid-Southern CUSA Eastern division.

When Marshall was invited to CUSA in 2003 TCU, Louisville, Cincinnati, ECU, Memphis, Houston, ect... were all members. I don't know if Marshall is Happier now or not. No rivalries since ECU left.

The closest visiting conference team this year, Old Dominion, only 18,473 came out. Biggest home game crowd in 2015 was 38,791. Biggest conference home game crowd in 2015 was 27,217.
Last two times Ohio U played in Huntington 31,710 and 33,436 came out.

Marshall could not get into the Big East/AAC when West Virginia is there. They may have a chance now.

(12-16-2015 02:25 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Basketball is not the main moneymaker in FBS sports. It is football. The MAC have several schools that have always performed below everybody else including Kent State. Youngstown State, Illinois State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Delaware, Liberty and James Madison could bring some strength in football. Even New Hampshire could be brought in as all sports to bring U. Mass. in for all sports.

New Hampshire!?!?!? Here is what I have to say about that:

IMHO, the only schools that would be of any interest to the MAC are Stony Brook(moving very slowly), Delaware(not moving up), JMU(would take if only they had a Travel Partner Not named Liberty).

(12-16-2015 03:01 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Marshall could not get into the Big East/AAC when West Virginia is there. They may have a chance now.

The Basketball Schools want nothing to do with them(see East Carolina on why it took them so lone to get into the BE) and Tulane would say no before the question was completed due to Academics.

(12-16-2015 02:53 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(12-16-2015 02:22 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 07:38 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 01:50 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Wayne State Michigan and Case Western Reserves were former founding members of the MAC as well. Wayne State dropped to D2 when they 1st divide in the NCAA which Case Western Reserves dropped to D3. Case Western Reserve. Case Western Reserve is the only AAU school. If they stayed with FBS at D1? They could have grown their stadium and facilities, and might be a member of the Big 10 in the future.

There was no Division I, II, or III back then. After World War II, most MAC members were still considered small colleges, the equivalent of today's Division II/III. I doubt Wayne State was ever considered a major, and I'm skeptical about Western Reserve.

Also, the school was Western Reserve University, so named because Northeast Ohio was once claimed by Connecticut as its "western reserve." Western Reserve merged with the Case Institute in the late 1960s.

Also...

DavidSt Wrote:I am surprise that MAC would not trade out Kent State for Youngstown State.

Kent State has been a member of the MAC since the 1950s and it offers more academic prestige than Youngstown State. Such a trade would be highly unlikely.

Case Western Reserves was a merger of two schools. Case Western Reserves back then had a history of making major bowl games that are still going today that is considered P5 bowls. Case Western Reserves is an AAU, and they are bigger than Northwestern with over 10,000 students with graduate and undergraduate. They are ranked high enough that they could be a Big 10 candidate. Their endowment is $1.7 billion. Being in Cleveland could help in media markets. If they stayed in as a major university? They would be D1 FBS instead of D3. I think they should get a waiver and join the Pioneer League for football, and they could fit somewhere for the rest of their sports. They have 10 men's sports and 9 women's. They may have to drop a men's sport and add a women's, but they do offer enough sports to be considered D1.

Case Western has about as much chance as Cleveland State having FBS Football: Zero

News flash: Cleveland may be a good size market, but unless you are Ohio State or one of the High Schools, you get no exposure basically locally at all.

NEWSFLASH: Who's fault it is that came up the rules that hurt Case Western Reserves? The P5 conferences. It was them that came up with the divisions so that they can get all the money. Now, they are regretting it. If the Big 10 have their way with rules? They could have Chicago, Johns Hopkins, MIT and Case Western Reserves back up at D1, and would add them all for all sports if they grow. Those 4 are inside the top 40 in Carnegie Ratings, and higher than most of the Big 10. A couple of them are top 10 in academics, and all 4 are AAU schools.

(12-16-2015 03:03 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(12-16-2015 02:25 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Basketball is not the main moneymaker in FBS sports. It is football. The MAC have several schools that have always performed below everybody else including Kent State. Youngstown State, Illinois State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Delaware, Liberty and James Madison could bring some strength in football. Even New Hampshire could be brought in as all sports to bring U. Mass. in for all sports.

New Hampshire!?!?!? Here is what I have to say about that:

IMHO, the only schools that would be of any interest to the MAC are Stony Brook(moving very slowly), Delaware(not moving up), JMU(would take if only they had a Travel Partner Not named Liberty).

Don't laugh about New Hampshire. They did upset P5 and G5 schools. They would be a better travel partner to U. Mass. than Temple. They are in a neighboring state to Mass.

If James Madison goes to the MAC? They could talk Delaware to move up with them. Those 2 could be travel partners. When Delaware sees that the schools that they want to play with are leaving them behind? They will make the move.

Liberty only shot right now is with the MAC.

All of these schools do have a long history with FBS schools, and they could be reunited with them.

The MAC is stable, the only two real candidates in the conference to make a move are Buffalo & NIU, otherwise I don't see anyone leaving the conference or a getting an invite to another one.

(12-16-2015 03:10 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  NEWSFLASH: Who's fault it is that came up the rules that hurt Case Western Reserves? The P5 conferences. It was them that came up with the divisions so that they can get all the money. Now, they are regretting it. If the Big 10 have their way with rules? They could have Chicago, Johns Hopkins, MIT and Case Western Reserves back up at D1, and would add them all for all sports if they grow. Those 4 are inside the top 40 in Carnegie Ratings, and higher than most of the Big 10. A couple of them are top 10 in academics, and all 4 are AAU schools.

Uh no,

Chicago choose to move down themselves(my understanding and have a open invite if they ever moved back up), I doubt MIT and Case wants it and Johns Hopkins is an affiliate there already(that was for Research access purposes only).

(12-16-2015 03:16 AM)Realignment Wrote:  The MAC is stable, the only two real candidates in the conference to make a move are Buffalo & NIU, otherwise I don't see anyone leaving the conference or a getting an invite to another one.

Toledo or Ohio U. could be a target if AAC loses Cincinnati. The AAC wants access to the talent rich Ohio athletes as well.

Western Michigan in Kalamazoo could be a target as well. over 75,000 population plus the population in other cities 50 miles away could easily be close to 100,000.

(12-16-2015 02:25 AM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  With UTEP and Rice talking to the Mountain West, the entire CUSA Marshall joined could be gone except UAB and Southern Miss. It IS the Sun Belt. Now if CUSA's TV contract also becomes the Sun Belt, then Marshall will be calling the MAC back up. Could save a ton of travel expenses and get more revenue from the MAC. Of course ESPN would have to agree to pick up the tab for Marshall moving to the MAC.

Id be very concerned if I was in CUSA right now with little interest from TV partners, start up members, and Rice and UTEP looking for an exit. CUSA basketball has also been around the 20th ranked conference the last 2 seasons.

What CUSA should be doing is extending its existing agreements for a couple more years.

A couple more years will allow for development of the FCS upgrades that populate CUSA's ranks and answer the UAB question.

The issue in CUSA is the conference has high exit fees. Once you join, you are locked in pretty much unless its an AAC invite that is worth paying the exit fees for. Marshall for this reason has its fate sealed.

Its a bad situation when the SBC and MAC are also shedding FB only schools and at 10 and 12 football schools respectively are leaner/meaner football conferences. The SBC also has instituted high exit fees so its no longer an automatic decision to move to CUSA.

In the MAC there are no exit fees and low entrance fees. There is speculation that Ohio could move to CUSA if the AAC raids. Aside from questionable financial motives for the move Ohio would lose its MAC rivalries. Ohio should demand that Miami is also added as a condition of joining CUSA. That way there wouldn't be an obligation to playing the MAC beyond continuing Kent St and Akron series in basketball. Sign a 1 for 1 with NIU or Toledo if wanted but not an every year thing. It would get Ohio and Miami out of playing midweek football that is killing attendance.

CUSA is a long ways from MAC poaching. The AAC would need to poach the MAC first, shaking up its stability. CUSA has some of the advantages of the AAC with a national brand and wider recruiting footprint without the 40 million dollar minimum budget of the AAC. WKU and MTSU are not Cincinnati and Louisville but they are MVCesque in basketball when compared to MAC directionals.

(12-16-2015 03:07 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(12-16-2015 03:01 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Marshall could not get into the Big East/AAC when West Virginia is there. They may have a chance now.

The Basketball Schools want nothing to do with them(see East Carolina on why it took them so lone to get into the BE) and Tulane would say no before the question was completed due to Academics.

Marshall is in a small state with West Virginia. That hurts and the school doesn't have a local corporate presence to back athletics. Athletic budgets in the AAC range from 40 to 70 million. Marshall's budget is 27 million. The AAC also does not allow props, a Marshall recruiting staple.

UMass is over 30 million and Buffalo is almost to 30. Two big schools in heavily populated states that would fit in with the large state schools that populate the AAC. With increased revenues and commitment they could pretty easily hit the 40 million mark.

Marshall would be smarter sticking in CUSA and recruiting Ohio/Miami to CUSA the two closest schools in the MAC footprint. A division with Miami, Ohio, Marshall, Charlotte, ODU, FAU, FIU would be nice for the Herd.

(12-16-2015 03:24 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-16-2015 03:16 AM)Realignment Wrote:  The MAC is stable, the only two real candidates in the conference to make a move are Buffalo & NIU, otherwise I don't see anyone leaving the conference or a getting an invite to another one.

Toledo or Ohio U. could be a target if AAC loses Cincinnati. The AAC wants access to the talent rich Ohio athletes as well.

Western Michigan in Kalamazoo could be a target as well. over 75,000 population plus the population in other cities 50 miles away could easily be close to 100,000.

Cincinnati at the moment is becoming less likely to leave the AAC...

(12-16-2015 03:24 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-16-2015 03:16 AM)Realignment Wrote:  The MAC is stable, the only two real candidates in the conference to make a move are Buffalo & NIU, otherwise I don't see anyone leaving the conference or a getting an invite to another one.

Toledo or Ohio U. could be a target if AAC loses Cincinnati. The AAC wants access to the talent rich Ohio athletes as well.

Western Michigan in Kalamazoo could be a target as well. over 75,000 population plus the population in other cities 50 miles away could easily be close to 100,000.

Kalamazoo's CSA is over 500,000. If you go 50 miles then you include The Grand Rapids CSA that is over 1.4 million. Note: Kalamazoo is in the Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo/Battle Creek TV Market which is the 39th largest in the country.

(12-16-2015 03:16 AM)Realignment Wrote:  The MAC is stable, the only two real candidates in the conference to make a move are Buffalo & NIU, otherwise I don't see anyone leaving the conference or a getting an invite to another one.

Where on earth would either Buffalo or NIU ever move to?

Budgets and geography. AAC, CUSA and Sun Belt overlap across the south. Big 10 isn't going to raid the MAC. So there's nowhere to go. And if you look at the ACC, AAC and CUSA expansions, it ran pretty much right along budget lines. Highest budget schools got called. MAC schools are well below the AAC schools and generally below the CUSA schools and above the Sun Belt schools.

(12-16-2015 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-16-2015 03:16 AM)Realignment Wrote:  The MAC is stable, the only two real candidates in the conference to make a move are Buffalo & NIU, otherwise I don't see anyone leaving the conference or a getting an invite to another one.

Where on earth would either Buffalo or NIU ever move to?

Nowhere at present, so its not a vulnerability whether or not they would be willing to move if they got an offer.

Now we have Kittonhead (aka Louis Kitton) wandering around the discussion board peddling OhioU and MiamiU making a lateral move to CUSA "if they get raided" (I presume by supposing the Big12 returning to 12 with AAC teams, the AAC reloading with CUSA teams) ... but of course, if CUSA gets raided again, there's even less reason than there is today for MiamiU and OhioU, oldest and second oldest Ohio public universities respectively, to leave the Great Lakes core of the MAC.