(12-08-2015 02:41 PM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  I mean seriously Homer do you think Ruff is a better coach than Rhule, Herman, or even Frost (your 3 listed teams)? Do you think he's a better coach than Morris, Montgomery, or Diaco? Name any of the AAC coaches you think he's better than.

To the first question, I say no.
To the second question, I think Morris is better than Ruff. I would say he is on the same level as Montgomery and Diaco.
To the third question. I'd take Ruff (at this point in his career) above Diaco, Montgomery, (insert Tulane absentee coach), and I'd say it's a toss up between Ruff and Tubs.
I would take Herman, Morris, the Memphis Coach, Ken N., Taggert (based on recruiting), Frost, and Rhule, over Ruff.

I think Ruffin McNeill offers intangibles that some of our coaches are lacking. His charisma and presence make him a unique type of coach. Very much a face of the program. He could easily outperform any of the AAC coaches that I prefer (at this time) in any given year. My list is not completely about aptitude to get the job done.

(12-08-2015 02:46 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:44 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Where does the "Top 3" expectation come from? I'm just curious what the foundation of that belief is.

Is ECU in a "Top 3" recruiting area, relative to the other programs in the AAC? After the Texas and Florida schools it's between us and Memphis.
Does ECU have "Top 3" facilities? No, but we will when the Southside of the stadium is complete in a couple of years.
Does ECU offer "Top 3" coaching compensation? We will be based on what I'm hearing.
Does ECU have better recent history? Better overall history than most here.

Seriously, what material reason is behind that expectation?

There.

I can respect your feeling that way. That gives me a much better idea of what that label means (from your perspective).

(12-08-2015 02:56 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:41 PM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  I mean seriously Homer do you think Ruff is a better coach than Rhule, Herman, or even Frost (your 3 listed teams)? Do you think he's a better coach than Morris, Montgomery, or Diaco? Name any of the AAC coaches you think he's better than.

To the first question, I say no.
To the second question, I think Morris is better than Ruff. I would say he is on the same level as Montgomery and Diaco.
To the third question. I'd take Ruff (at this point in his career) above Diaco, Montgomery, (insert Tulane absentee coach), and I'd say it's a toss up between Ruff and Tubs.
I would take Herman, Morris, the Memphis Coach, Ken N., Taggert (based on recruiting), Frost, and Rhule, over Ruff.

I think Ruffin McNeill offers intangibles that some of our coaches are lacking. His charisma and presence make him a unique type of coach. Very much a face of the program. He could easily outperform any of the AAC coaches that I prefer (at this time) in any given year. My list is not completely about aptitude to get the job done.

FINALLY my point is made! Even though you are being very generous he is at best maybe the 8th best coach in the conference even though you rated him on the same level as Tubs and Diaco which I would disagree with, but there you go. That's why Ruff was fired.

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:56 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:41 PM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  I mean seriously Homer do you think Ruff is a better coach than Rhule, Herman, or even Frost (your 3 listed teams)? Do you think he's a better coach than Morris, Montgomery, or Diaco? Name any of the AAC coaches you think he's better than.

To the first question, I say no.
To the second question, I think Morris is better than Ruff. I would say he is on the same level as Montgomery and Diaco.
To the third question. I'd take Ruff (at this point in his career) above Diaco, Montgomery, (insert Tulane absentee coach), and I'd say it's a toss up between Ruff and Tubs.
I would take Herman, Morris, the Memphis Coach, Ken N., Taggert (based on recruiting), Frost, and Rhule, over Ruff.

I think Ruffin McNeill offers intangibles that some of our coaches are lacking. His charisma and presence make him a unique type of coach. Very much a face of the program. He could easily outperform any of the AAC coaches that I prefer (at this time) in any given year. My list is not completely about aptitude to get the job done.

FINALLY my point is made! Even though you are being very generous he is at best maybe the 6th best coach in the conference even though you rated him on the same level as Tubs and Diaco which I would disagree with, but there you go. That's why Ruff was fired.

You're not completely understanding what I'm saying. It's not a ranking. The UCF and Memphis coach have done nothing. However, I like their energy and potential to put together a creative offensive scheme. I like Rhule for everything but offense. Herman I like because of his offense and his ability to instill a culture (like Ruff, he's a culture guy). In Morris I see all of the above. With Ken N., I just love his heart for Navy.

It's very much just about preferred flavors. I prefer what Ruffin brings to the table - culture wise - more than Tuberville. I think his teams play harder.

I could go on and on but my preferences aren't really about who the best coach is, anymore than my preference for LIFE cereal is an admonishment for Cheerios.

(12-08-2015 03:12 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:56 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:41 PM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  I mean seriously Homer do you think Ruff is a better coach than Rhule, Herman, or even Frost (your 3 listed teams)? Do you think he's a better coach than Morris, Montgomery, or Diaco? Name any of the AAC coaches you think he's better than.

To the first question, I say no.
To the second question, I think Morris is better than Ruff. I would say he is on the same level as Montgomery and Diaco.
To the third question. I'd take Ruff (at this point in his career) above Diaco, Montgomery, (insert Tulane absentee coach), and I'd say it's a toss up between Ruff and Tubs.
I would take Herman, Morris, the Memphis Coach, Ken N., Taggert (based on recruiting), Frost, and Rhule, over Ruff.

I think Ruffin McNeill offers intangibles that some of our coaches are lacking. His charisma and presence make him a unique type of coach. Very much a face of the program. He could easily outperform any of the AAC coaches that I prefer (at this time) in any given year. My list is not completely about aptitude to get the job done.

FINALLY my point is made! Even though you are being very generous he is at best maybe the 6th best coach in the conference even though you rated him on the same level as Tubs and Diaco which I would disagree with, but there you go. That's why Ruff was fired.

You're not completely understanding what I'm saying. It's not a ranking. The UCF and Memphis coach have done nothing. However, I like their energy and potential to put together a creative offensive scheme. I like Rhule for everything but offense. Herman I like because of his offense and his ability to instill a culture (like Ruff, he's a culture guy). In Morris I see all of the above. With Ken N., I just love his heart for Navy.

It's very much just about preferred flavors. I prefer what Ruffin brings to the table - culture wise - more than Tuberville. I think his teams play harder.

I could go on and on but my preferences aren't really about who the best coach is, anymore than my preference for LIFE cereal is an admonishment for Cheerios.

No you were on point the previous post. You named 7 coaches you would take over Ruff and I agree with you, other than I would replace Morris with Tubs but you're right. Looking at it and not counting the new hires the only coaches in the conference you could make an argument that Ruff is better then on the field is Morris (which is tough to do since he inherited a mess and it was only his first year) and maybe Montgomery even though he had a better overall record and it was his first year. That's it, every other coach, on the field, is better than Ruff right now despite Ruff being at ECU longer than most of them. The new hires at UCF and Memphis look like they will be very good as well. Compher looked at this and realized we needed an upgrade.

(12-08-2015 12:58 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 12:29 PM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 11:56 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  This would be second worst thing ECU did in the past 30 days

Correct me I am wrong but wasn't he a candidate the UCF wanted?

No he was a candidate that some memory striken wierdos wanted because he worked here prior to O'leary as DC and has Florida roots. Most of the people who didn't have double digit iq's, said no way. He was so ego driven anyhow, he refused to interview for the job saying either they hire me or look elsewhere. That's when he stopped being a candidate to all.

Chizik would be an awesome coach for ecu. I get his point about the interview. You're not talking about a computer salesman. His resume is on the field. The guy would do well at ecu.

(12-08-2015 03:18 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:12 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:56 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:41 PM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  I mean seriously Homer do you think Ruff is a better coach than Rhule, Herman, or even Frost (your 3 listed teams)? Do you think he's a better coach than Morris, Montgomery, or Diaco? Name any of the AAC coaches you think he's better than.

To the first question, I say no.
To the second question, I think Morris is better than Ruff. I would say he is on the same level as Montgomery and Diaco.
To the third question. I'd take Ruff (at this point in his career) above Diaco, Montgomery, (insert Tulane absentee coach), and I'd say it's a toss up between Ruff and Tubs.
I would take Herman, Morris, the Memphis Coach, Ken N., Taggert (based on recruiting), Frost, and Rhule, over Ruff.

I think Ruffin McNeill offers intangibles that some of our coaches are lacking. His charisma and presence make him a unique type of coach. Very much a face of the program. He could easily outperform any of the AAC coaches that I prefer (at this time) in any given year. My list is not completely about aptitude to get the job done.

FINALLY my point is made! Even though you are being very generous he is at best maybe the 6th best coach in the conference even though you rated him on the same level as Tubs and Diaco which I would disagree with, but there you go. That's why Ruff was fired.

You're not completely understanding what I'm saying. It's not a ranking. The UCF and Memphis coach have done nothing. However, I like their energy and potential to put together a creative offensive scheme. I like Rhule for everything but offense. Herman I like because of his offense and his ability to instill a culture (like Ruff, he's a culture guy). In Morris I see all of the above. With Ken N., I just love his heart for Navy.

It's very much just about preferred flavors. I prefer what Ruffin brings to the table - culture wise - more than Tuberville. I think his teams play harder.

I could go on and on but my preferences aren't really about who the best coach is, anymore than my preference for LIFE cereal is an admonishment for Cheerios.

No you were on point the previous post. You named 7 coaches you would take over Ruff and I agree with you, other than I would replace Morris with Tubs but you're right. Looking at it and not counting the new hires the only coaches in the conference you could make an argument that Ruff is better then on the field is Morris (which is tough to do since he inherited a mess and it was only his first year) and maybe Montgomery even though he had a better overall record and it was his first year. That's it, every other coach, on the field, is better than Ruff right now despite Ruff being at ECU longer than most of them. The new hires at UCF and Memphis look like they will be very good as well. Compher looked at this and realized we needed an upgrade.

You never asked me to rank order how all those coaches would have finished next year (imo). That's a different list, and more germane to what you are getting at.

(12-08-2015 03:33 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 12:58 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 12:29 PM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 11:56 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  This would be second worst thing ECU did in the past 30 days

Correct me I am wrong but wasn't he a candidate the UCF wanted?

No he was a candidate that some memory striken wierdos wanted because he worked here prior to O'leary as DC and has Florida roots. Most of the people who didn't have double digit iq's, said no way. He was so ego driven anyhow, he refused to interview for the job saying either they hire me or look elsewhere. That's when he stopped being a candidate to all.

Chizik would be an awesome coach for ecu. I get his point about the interview. You're not talking about a computer salesman. His resume is on the field. The guy would do well at ecu.

You can question whether he'd be a great hire as well, but I certainly get his stance on interviewing. He doesn't need to go out and beg for a head coaching job. He's filthy rich, has 2 national title rings, and is an elite DC and has a pretty good gig. If he's never a head coach again he'll be fine.

(12-08-2015 03:55 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:18 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:12 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:56 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  To the first question, I say no.
To the second question, I think Morris is better than Ruff. I would say he is on the same level as Montgomery and Diaco.
To the third question. I'd take Ruff (at this point in his career) above Diaco, Montgomery, (insert Tulane absentee coach), and I'd say it's a toss up between Ruff and Tubs.
I would take Herman, Morris, the Memphis Coach, Ken N., Taggert (based on recruiting), Frost, and Rhule, over Ruff.

I think Ruffin McNeill offers intangibles that some of our coaches are lacking. His charisma and presence make him a unique type of coach. Very much a face of the program. He could easily outperform any of the AAC coaches that I prefer (at this time) in any given year. My list is not completely about aptitude to get the job done.

FINALLY my point is made! Even though you are being very generous he is at best maybe the 6th best coach in the conference even though you rated him on the same level as Tubs and Diaco which I would disagree with, but there you go. That's why Ruff was fired.

You're not completely understanding what I'm saying. It's not a ranking. The UCF and Memphis coach have done nothing. However, I like their energy and potential to put together a creative offensive scheme. I like Rhule for everything but offense. Herman I like because of his offense and his ability to instill a culture (like Ruff, he's a culture guy). In Morris I see all of the above. With Ken N., I just love his heart for Navy.

It's very much just about preferred flavors. I prefer what Ruffin brings to the table - culture wise - more than Tuberville. I think his teams play harder.

I could go on and on but my preferences aren't really about who the best coach is, anymore than my preference for LIFE cereal is an admonishment for Cheerios.

No you were on point the previous post. You named 7 coaches you would take over Ruff and I agree with you, other than I would replace Morris with Tubs but you're right. Looking at it and not counting the new hires the only coaches in the conference you could make an argument that Ruff is better then on the field is Morris (which is tough to do since he inherited a mess and it was only his first year) and maybe Montgomery even though he had a better overall record and it was his first year. That's it, every other coach, on the field, is better than Ruff right now despite Ruff being at ECU longer than most of them. The new hires at UCF and Memphis look like they will be very good as well. Compher looked at this and realized we needed an upgrade.

You never asked me to rank order how all those coaches would have finished next year (imo). That's a different list, and more germane to what you are getting at.

I'm not talking about a ranking of how teams will finish next year, no one can predict that. I just asked what teams would be willing to fire their coach and replace him with Ruff. You answered my question when you named 7 coaches you would take above Ruff, which I agree with you. Based on results on the field, I would take probably 7 or 8 coaches in this conference over Ruff. Like I said you simply proved my point, he's not one of the top coaches in this league, any nonbiased person can see that.

(12-08-2015 04:05 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:55 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:18 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:12 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  FINALLY my point is made! Even though you are being very generous he is at best maybe the 6th best coach in the conference even though you rated him on the same level as Tubs and Diaco which I would disagree with, but there you go. That's why Ruff was fired.

You're not completely understanding what I'm saying. It's not a ranking. The UCF and Memphis coach have done nothing. However, I like their energy and potential to put together a creative offensive scheme. I like Rhule for everything but offense. Herman I like because of his offense and his ability to instill a culture (like Ruff, he's a culture guy). In Morris I see all of the above. With Ken N., I just love his heart for Navy.

It's very much just about preferred flavors. I prefer what Ruffin brings to the table - culture wise - more than Tuberville. I think his teams play harder.

I could go on and on but my preferences aren't really about who the best coach is, anymore than my preference for LIFE cereal is an admonishment for Cheerios.

No you were on point the previous post. You named 7 coaches you would take over Ruff and I agree with you, other than I would replace Morris with Tubs but you're right. Looking at it and not counting the new hires the only coaches in the conference you could make an argument that Ruff is better then on the field is Morris (which is tough to do since he inherited a mess and it was only his first year) and maybe Montgomery even though he had a better overall record and it was his first year. That's it, every other coach, on the field, is better than Ruff right now despite Ruff being at ECU longer than most of them. The new hires at UCF and Memphis look like they will be very good as well. Compher looked at this and realized we needed an upgrade.

You never asked me to rank order how all those coaches would have finished next year (imo). That's a different list, and more germane to what you are getting at.

I'm not talking about a ranking of how teams will finish next year, no one can predict that. I just asked what teams would be willing to fire their coach and replace him with Ruff. You answered my question when you named 7 coaches you would take above Ruff, which I agree with you. Based on results on the field, I would take probably 7 or 8 coaches in this conference over Ruff. Like I said you simply proved my point, he's not one of the top coaches in this league, any nonbiased person can see that.

I've made no secret before the firing about my belief that ECU and/or USF would be in that Top 4 group next year. I feel that Memphis will fall back (naturally, without Paxton) and Navy (with the loss of Reynolds) may stumble...
Ruffs firing throws my projections off. It'll be interesting to see who is hired, and what systems they put in place.
The thing about ECU under Ruff has been, that's a team that everyone liked to root for (because of Ruff). You still may have that.. We'll see.

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:46 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:44 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Where does the "Top 3" expectation come from? I'm just curious what the foundation of that belief is.

Is ECU in a "Top 3" recruiting area, relative to the other programs in the AAC? After the Texas and Florida schools it's between us and Memphis.
Does ECU have "Top 3" facilities? No, but we will when the Southside of the stadium is complete in a couple of years.
Does ECU offer "Top 3" coaching compensation? We will be based on what I'm hearing.
Does ECU have better recent history? Better overall history than most here.

Seriously, what material reason is behind that expectation?

There.

I can respect your feeling that way. That gives me a much better idea of what that label means (from your perspective).

As far as facilities and compensation go historically (and most of the current AAC schools have a ton of history together), ECU has always been at or in the Top 3 for facilities and compensation until just recently. Just because others have had recent updates or coaching raises doesn't mean we've lost being considered one of the top 3. Just a matter of timing/cycles.

(12-08-2015 12:44 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  My guess is if Chizik is hired the fans will rally pretty quickly around the program and put this mess behind us. Chizik does have sizzle. The question is can he build a program outside the SEC. I don't see any other prospect that is a lock for success. All of them are a gamble. With this guy at least you pretty well know that defense will be played on the field.

Also that NC ring is like gold on the recruiting trail. I think we could land top 50 recruiting classes with him if not top 25


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Keep him close to Cam. He's good near Cam.

(12-08-2015 04:22 PM)apex_pirate Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 03:01 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:46 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 02:44 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Where does the "Top 3" expectation come from? I'm just curious what the foundation of that belief is.

Is ECU in a "Top 3" recruiting area, relative to the other programs in the AAC? After the Texas and Florida schools it's between us and Memphis.
Does ECU have "Top 3" facilities? No, but we will when the Southside of the stadium is complete in a couple of years.
Does ECU offer "Top 3" coaching compensation? We will be based on what I'm hearing.
Does ECU have better recent history? Better overall history than most here.

Seriously, what material reason is behind that expectation?

There.

I can respect your feeling that way. That gives me a much better idea of what that label means (from your perspective).

As far as facilities and compensation go historically (and most of the current AAC schools have a ton of history together), ECU has always been at or in the Top 3 for facilities and compensation until just recently. Just because others have had recent updates or coaching raises doesn't mean we've lost being considered one of the top 3. Just a matter of timing/cycles.

This is a good point.

Also important to keep in mind that outside of the new student section, after the Murphy Center we put our commitment into building new stadiums and facilities for all Olympic Sports and then the Basketball Practice facility per TH's mission to make us more well-rounded. It really does go in cycles. It's not like our donors have said "oh, f**ck them we're done." No. We had other stuff we were doing.

Football could afford the break, now it can't anymore. That's ok, we've responded accordingly by starting the process of the Southside expansion. Not saying that other schools aren't the same, but this is our situation and every situation - especially those dealing with money - are unique.

I dont see why ECu doesnt look at some succesfull coaches who are rather close.... like Holliday out of Marshall. Hes done a great job there.... and I know Ill get skewed for this but Golden was a damn good coach for temple before going to Miami. Miami is hard to win at, but he has alot of "ins" within Florida and could bring mid level talent that the big boys arent going to take.
and the one I want ECU to never figure out is that if they were to take Jim Leavitt he would be killing the AAC.

(12-08-2015 11:55 AM)First Mate Wrote:  

(12-08-2015 11:51 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  I'd be happy with the Chizik hire, if it happened.

He is a recognized name.
He won a BCS National Championship.
He turned around a TERRIBLE UNC Defense.
He is a great recruiter.

Based on his head coaching career, it is obvious that he needs good coordinators. I have no doubt he could build an impressive staff at ECU, and would be a great, successful hire. He would likely leave for a major P5 job if he's successful at ECU, but that's the nature of the G5 beast.

Most schools, P5 or G5, FCS, NAIA it doesn't matter. If their coach is good and has a lot of success will leave at some point for more money or a bigger job. It's not just the G5 or an ECU problem.

Nick Saban left Michigan St, then he left LSU for goodness sakes. Unc lost Mack Brown to Texas, Chip Kelly left Oregon for the NFL, and so on and so on.

The objective is to get a great coach and get as many years out of him as possible and always be ready to pull the trigger on the next guy that can keep the system rolling.

Well said.

(12-09-2015 11:58 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  I dont see why ECu doesnt look at some succesfull coaches who are rather close.... like Holliday out of Marshall. Hes done a great job there.... and I know Ill get skewed for this but Golden was a damn good coach for temple before going to Miami. Miami is hard to win at, but he has alot of "ins" within Florida and could bring mid level talent that the big boys arent going to take.
and the one I want ECU to never figure out is that if they were to take Jim Leavitt he would be killing the AAC.

Marshall is allowed to take players who are marginal academically. That is a huge advantage. I want to see marshall playing a real d-1 schedule recruiting players that are accepted at other schools.

(12-09-2015 12:31 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(12-09-2015 11:58 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  I dont see why ECu doesnt look at some succesfull coaches who are rather close.... like Holliday out of Marshall. Hes done a great job there.... and I know Ill get skewed for this but Golden was a damn good coach for temple before going to Miami. Miami is hard to win at, but he has alot of "ins" within Florida and could bring mid level talent that the big boys arent going to take.
and the one I want ECU to never figure out is that if they were to take Jim Leavitt he would be killing the AAC.

Marshall is allowed to take players who are marginal academically. That is a huge advantage. I want to see marshall playing a real d-1 schedule recruiting players that are accepted at other schools.

We all did it, so no one should use it as an excuse to say why X school is better than Marshall. BUT, with that said, they need to accept the fact that it is a point of contention and something that lowers credibility justly so. I and almost all other ECU fans (that understand what NQ's are) accepted that when Skip was doing it out the wazzoo.

(12-09-2015 12:41 PM)PiratePanther189 Wrote:  

(12-09-2015 12:31 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(12-09-2015 11:58 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  I dont see why ECu doesnt look at some succesfull coaches who are rather close.... like Holliday out of Marshall. Hes done a great job there.... and I know Ill get skewed for this but Golden was a damn good coach for temple before going to Miami. Miami is hard to win at, but he has alot of "ins" within Florida and could bring mid level talent that the big boys arent going to take.
and the one I want ECU to never figure out is that if they were to take Jim Leavitt he would be killing the AAC.

Marshall is allowed to take players who are marginal academically. That is a huge advantage. I want to see marshall playing a real d-1 schedule recruiting players that are accepted at other schools.

We all did it, so no one should use it as an excuse to say why X school is better than Marshall. BUT, with that said, they need to accept the fact that it is a point of contention and something that lowers credibility justly so. I and almost all other ECU fans (that understand what NQ's are) accepted that when Skip was doing it out the wazzoo.

And to be fair Doc Holliday had a reputation as a good recruiter long before he was at Marshall (NC State, WVA, etc.). I really think the reason most schools haven't looked at him is that he is 58 years old already so his window is getting smaller. His age plus his situation with Marshall, I'm assuming he will finish up his career there and retire.

How about Everett Withers, Randy Shannon, or Shane Beamer? I saw those named mentioned in an article that said Frost and Brohm were a no go.