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It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #61
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  But that's the point - it DOESN'T ever end up being a 50/50 split of fans when one of the teams is that much closer than the other (especially when you're talking about a fan base like OU that would travel well even for long distances).

His scenario leaves out local fans. If the Cotton Bowl seats 100,000, and each team is given 35,000 tickets, another 30,000 seats are going to someone, locals, sponsors, etc. And many of those, if they happen to be local, are far more likely to be OU fans, then Alabama fans.

Bowl games, any bowl game, do not split the tickets 50/50.
12-07-2015 02:37 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #62
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 02:10 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 01:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:55 PM)bluesox Wrote:  Michigan state got screwed being moved up from a 4 seed to a 3 seed, hardly see that as a reward. Just look at the odds, they are 9 point underdogs vs bama. Also, Michigan state went to the cotton bowl last year so i'm sure they would have favored a difference location for a bowl trip. What occurred was a premeditated move by the committee to protect alabama from playing OU in dallas and obey the ESPN overlords for what matchup they wanted. ITs complete BS and downright lying to have any rational for moving MSU over OU based on last week-ends games. There were different agenda in play.

But if folks saw Michigan St as better than Oklahoma, why would you punish the #1 team by having them playing the tougher opponent?

About last weekends games mean they shouldn't have moved up Michigan St- Michigan St beat an undefeated #4 team in Iowa. Oklahoma was sitting on their asses. You look at their resumes- Michigan St has a better resume than Oklahoma.

Clemson is the #1 team in the nation? Prove it.

Exactly.

So the correct way to do it is to just pick the four teams that the "best", and not rank them.


There is no possible way to know a priori which of those four is really the #1, etc.

Ohio St was the true #1 last year, but got the #4 seed. That was a punishment for Alabama.

Sorry. I totally disagree with you.

And know that the basketball switched to make it where they have seeded it to where 1/4 and 2/3 in the final 4 if everyone makes it.

Sorry- but we aren't going to be having unseeded playoffs ever.

That's irrelevant. The discussion is if we should. I take it that you bow out, on such discussion.
12-07-2015 02:45 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
I don't think we should. I mean, take 2001. Ohio St and Miami were clearly 1,2. I don't want any chance of them having to meet in the SF. And yes, that means **** the Rose Bowl.
12-07-2015 02:52 PM
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Post: #64
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
you see that's the only reason why you don't want it seeded. To protect the Rose Bowl. Sorry but that's BS. Rose Bowl seemed to survive pretty damn well last year with Oregon and Florida St.
12-07-2015 02:56 PM
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Post: #65
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 02:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  you see that's the only reason why you don't want it seeded. To protect the Rose Bowl. Sorry but that's BS. Rose Bowl seemed to survive pretty damn well last year with Oregon and Florida St.

Alabama was punished, having to face Ohio St in the semi. Wasn't fair to the Tide.
12-07-2015 03:00 PM
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Post: #66
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 02:52 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't think we should. I mean, take 2001. Ohio St and Miami were clearly 1,2. I don't want any chance of them having to meet in the SF. And yes, that means **** the Rose Bowl.

In any given year, it's impossible to really know if any of the top 4 are going to win for sure.
12-07-2015 03:00 PM
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Post: #67
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:00 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:52 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't think we should. I mean, take 2001. Ohio St and Miami were clearly 1,2. I don't want any chance of them having to meet in the SF. And yes, that means **** the Rose Bowl.

In any given year, it's impossible to really know if any of the top 4 are going to win for sure.

Again, do you not see how you undermine the entire process. By saying it is impossible to seed the top four, it says it is impossible to seed the top whatever, or to determine who should be in the playoffs at all. So using your criteria, your logic, the only fair playoff would include EVERY team, seeded by random draw. That is the only logical conclusion using YOUR reasoning. If it is possible to determine who the top four are, then it is possible to determine the top two. If it is not possible to determine the top two, then it is not possible to determine the top four. Plain and simple.
12-07-2015 03:04 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #68
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 02:37 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  But that's the point - it DOESN'T ever end up being a 50/50 split of fans when one of the teams is that much closer than the other (especially when you're talking about a fan base like OU that would travel well even for long distances).

His scenario leaves out local fans. If the Cotton Bowl seats 100,000, and each team is given 35,000 tickets, another 30,000 seats are going to someone, locals, sponsors, etc. And many of those, if they happen to be local, are far more likely to be OU fans, then Alabama fans.

Bowl games, any bowl game, do not split the tickets 50/50.

Nonsense. They have this thing called the internet. Even in Alabama! As weird as that sounds.

Alabama fans are at least as likely to snatch up all the tickets as OU fans.

50-50 split in Dallas this year.
12-07-2015 03:09 PM
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Post: #69
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:04 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:00 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:52 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't think we should. I mean, take 2001. Ohio St and Miami were clearly 1,2. I don't want any chance of them having to meet in the SF. And yes, that means **** the Rose Bowl.

In any given year, it's impossible to really know if any of the top 4 are going to win for sure.

Again, do you not see how you undermine the entire process. By saying it is impossible to seed the top four, it says it is impossible to seed the top whatever, or to determine who should be in the playoffs at all. So using your criteria, your logic, the only fair playoff would include EVERY team, seeded by random draw. That is the only logical conclusion using YOUR reasoning. If it is possible to determine who the top four are, then it is possible to determine the top two. If it is not possible to determine the top two, then it is not possible to determine the top four. Plain and simple.

That is correct: you can't seed any of them.

But you still have to pick four. So you do the best you can. But that doesn't mean you should seed each team.
12-07-2015 03:10 PM
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Post: #70
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
you just want to protect the Rose Bowl. Period. Sorry that ship has sailed.
12-07-2015 03:12 PM
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Post: #71
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:00 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  you see that's the only reason why you don't want it seeded. To protect the Rose Bowl. Sorry but that's BS. Rose Bowl seemed to survive pretty damn well last year with Oregon and Florida St.

Alabama was punished, having to face Ohio St in the semi. Wasn't fair to the Tide.

why not? Ohio St was viewed to not be as good as Alabama, Oregon, or FSU.
12-07-2015 03:20 PM
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Post: #72
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:09 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:37 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  But that's the point - it DOESN'T ever end up being a 50/50 split of fans when one of the teams is that much closer than the other (especially when you're talking about a fan base like OU that would travel well even for long distances).

His scenario leaves out local fans. If the Cotton Bowl seats 100,000, and each team is given 35,000 tickets, another 30,000 seats are going to someone, locals, sponsors, etc. And many of those, if they happen to be local, are far more likely to be OU fans, then Alabama fans.

Bowl games, any bowl game, do not split the tickets 50/50.

Nonsense. They have this thing called the internet. Even in Alabama! As weird as that sounds.

Alabama fans are at least as likely to snatch up all the tickets as OU fans.

50-50 split in Dallas this year.

Jeez, it's like talking to a brick wall. You do realize that tickets did not just go on sale yesterday for this, right? Many thousands of the tickets have already been sold, to locals and sponsors. Some buy them to go, some to resell. And guess what, many of them are already fans of Big 12 teams, if not Oklahoma outright. That means many of those tickets are already in the hands of the people who will be attending the game, and they will be rooting for Oklahoma. Even if Alabama fans bought every available ticket, key word being available, they would be outnumbered, unless mysteriously the 25,000 - 30,000 local tickets already sold just happened to already be Alabama fans.
12-07-2015 03:21 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #73
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:20 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:00 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  you see that's the only reason why you don't want it seeded. To protect the Rose Bowl. Sorry but that's BS. Rose Bowl seemed to survive pretty damn well last year with Oregon and Florida St.

Alabama was punished, having to face Ohio St in the semi. Wasn't fair to the Tide.

why not? Ohio St was viewed to not be as good as Alabama, Oregon, or FSU.

Which is evidence supporting my argument: they got the seeding wrong. OH St was really the #1 team, and proved it. They should've played the true #2, Alabama, in the final.
12-08-2015 09:43 AM
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Post: #74
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:09 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:37 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  But that's the point - it DOESN'T ever end up being a 50/50 split of fans when one of the teams is that much closer than the other (especially when you're talking about a fan base like OU that would travel well even for long distances).

His scenario leaves out local fans. If the Cotton Bowl seats 100,000, and each team is given 35,000 tickets, another 30,000 seats are going to someone, locals, sponsors, etc. And many of those, if they happen to be local, are far more likely to be OU fans, then Alabama fans.

Bowl games, any bowl game, do not split the tickets 50/50.

Nonsense. They have this thing called the internet. Even in Alabama! As weird as that sounds.

Alabama fans are at least as likely to snatch up all the tickets as OU fans.

50-50 split in Dallas this year.

Jeez, it's like talking to a brick wall. You do realize that tickets did not just go on sale yesterday for this, right? Many thousands of the tickets have already been sold, to locals and sponsors. Some buy them to go, some to resell. And guess what, many of them are already fans of Big 12 teams, if not Oklahoma outright. That means many of those tickets are already in the hands of the people who will be attending the game, and they will be rooting for Oklahoma. Even if Alabama fans bought every available ticket, key word being available, they would be outnumbered, unless mysteriously the 25,000 - 30,000 local tickets already sold just happened to already be Alabama fans.

You say that. I say that Alabama fans would be willing to pay to get the tickets.

You have no evidence, I have no evidence. We'll never know for sure. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
12-08-2015 09:44 AM
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Post: #75
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-08-2015 09:43 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:20 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:00 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  you see that's the only reason why you don't want it seeded. To protect the Rose Bowl. Sorry but that's BS. Rose Bowl seemed to survive pretty damn well last year with Oregon and Florida St.

Alabama was punished, having to face Ohio St in the semi. Wasn't fair to the Tide.

why not? Ohio St was viewed to not be as good as Alabama, Oregon, or FSU.

Which is evidence supporting my argument: they got the seeding wrong. OH St was really the #1 team, and proved it. They should've played the true #2, Alabama, in the final.

the only reason why you are saying it is to protect your rose bowl. well screw that. Sorry but the Rose Bowl doesn't get any special considerations. PERIOD.
12-08-2015 09:48 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #76
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-07-2015 03:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:09 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:37 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  But that's the point - it DOESN'T ever end up being a 50/50 split of fans when one of the teams is that much closer than the other (especially when you're talking about a fan base like OU that would travel well even for long distances).

His scenario leaves out local fans. If the Cotton Bowl seats 100,000, and each team is given 35,000 tickets, another 30,000 seats are going to someone, locals, sponsors, etc. And many of those, if they happen to be local, are far more likely to be OU fans, then Alabama fans.

Bowl games, any bowl game, do not split the tickets 50/50.

Nonsense. They have this thing called the internet. Even in Alabama! As weird as that sounds.

Alabama fans are at least as likely to snatch up all the tickets as OU fans.

50-50 split in Dallas this year.

Jeez, it's like talking to a brick wall. You do realize that tickets did not just go on sale yesterday for this, right? Many thousands of the tickets have already been sold, to locals and sponsors. Some buy them to go, some to resell. And guess what, many of them are already fans of Big 12 teams, if not Oklahoma outright. That means many of those tickets are already in the hands of the people who will be attending the game, and they will be rooting for Oklahoma. Even if Alabama fans bought every available ticket, key word being available, they would be outnumbered, unless mysteriously the 25,000 - 30,000 local tickets already sold just happened to already be Alabama fans.

One factor to remember is that HFA isn't all, or even mostly, about fans yelling in the stands. Probably the biggest negative aspect is that usually, with a week between games, the visiting team has the travel hassle and then lack of familiarity with the field and stadium. Travel, from the moment you have to pack for the team bus to the airport, to the time you settle in at your hotel in the distant city, is a drain mentally and physically -jet lag, time zone differences, being stuffed in uncomfortable seats, etc. - and eats significantly into game preparation. And QBs talk about the differences in depth perception and sight-lines that are created in different stadiums thanks to different seating configurations, etc. And both QBs and kickers know the cross-winds that tend to develop in their home stadiums.

But in a bowl situation, that aspect of of being the road team is essentially eliminated, because both teams can arrive many days in advance, plenty of time to get over jet lag, adjust to the hotel, go out to the facility and practice. And neither team has the in-depth knowledge of sight-lines and winds, because even if OU is a lot closer to Dallas than Alabama, it's not OU's actual home facility either.

Plus, even the fans in the stands aspect is significantly different. From the point of view of being able to call signals and general team communication, there's a BIG difference between a true Oklahoma home game, where the crowd in Norman is going to be 97% pro-Oklahoma with a tiny visitor's section, and a bowl game at Dallas, where the crowd is likely to be 65 - 35 pro-Oklahoma. 65 - 35 doesn't put the other team at nearly the same noise disadvantage as 97 - 3 does, and plus there are enough of their fans to create significant noise for OU as well.

So when you add it all up, while there is an advantage for Oklahoma in playing an Alabama in Dallas, it's a very weak form of "home field" advantage. Not really worth worrying about.

That's probably why there doesn't seem to be much correlation in recent years between big bowl game results and this alleged advantage. E.g., at the Sugar Bowl, Alabama wiped out LSU when LSU allegedly had a big home advantage, and then the last two years, Oklahoma and Ohio State beat Alabama, despite the Sugar Bowl being SEC territory.

And in the Cotton Bowl, we see the same thing. In recent years, Ole Miss beat Texas Tech and Oklahoma State, Missouri beat Oklahoma State, Michigan State beat Baylor, and LSU beat Texas A/M. Dallas is in the heart of Big 12 country and yet the much-closer Big 12 teams have struggled to beat SEC and B1G teams traveling much farther and with presumably significantly fewer fans in the stands.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2015 10:06 AM by quo vadis.)
12-08-2015 09:55 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #77
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-08-2015 09:48 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-08-2015 09:43 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:20 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:00 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  you see that's the only reason why you don't want it seeded. To protect the Rose Bowl. Sorry but that's BS. Rose Bowl seemed to survive pretty damn well last year with Oregon and Florida St.

Alabama was punished, having to face Ohio St in the semi. Wasn't fair to the Tide.

why not? Ohio St was viewed to not be as good as Alabama, Oregon, or FSU.

Which is evidence supporting my argument: they got the seeding wrong. OH St was really the #1 team, and proved it. They should've played the true #2, Alabama, in the final.

the only reason why you are saying it is to protect your rose bowl. well screw that. Sorry but the Rose Bowl doesn't get any special considerations. PERIOD.

I take it by your lack of an additional counter-argument, that you've conceded the point.
12-08-2015 10:43 AM
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Post: #78
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-08-2015 09:55 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 03:09 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 02:37 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(12-07-2015 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  But that's the point - it DOESN'T ever end up being a 50/50 split of fans when one of the teams is that much closer than the other (especially when you're talking about a fan base like OU that would travel well even for long distances).

His scenario leaves out local fans. If the Cotton Bowl seats 100,000, and each team is given 35,000 tickets, another 30,000 seats are going to someone, locals, sponsors, etc. And many of those, if they happen to be local, are far more likely to be OU fans, then Alabama fans.

Bowl games, any bowl game, do not split the tickets 50/50.

Nonsense. They have this thing called the internet. Even in Alabama! As weird as that sounds.

Alabama fans are at least as likely to snatch up all the tickets as OU fans.

50-50 split in Dallas this year.

Jeez, it's like talking to a brick wall. You do realize that tickets did not just go on sale yesterday for this, right? Many thousands of the tickets have already been sold, to locals and sponsors. Some buy them to go, some to resell. And guess what, many of them are already fans of Big 12 teams, if not Oklahoma outright. That means many of those tickets are already in the hands of the people who will be attending the game, and they will be rooting for Oklahoma. Even if Alabama fans bought every available ticket, key word being available, they would be outnumbered, unless mysteriously the 25,000 - 30,000 local tickets already sold just happened to already be Alabama fans.

One factor to remember is that HFA isn't all, or even mostly, about fans yelling in the stands. Probably the biggest negative aspect is that usually, with a week between games, the visiting team has the travel hassle and then lack of familiarity with the field and stadium. Travel, from the moment you have to pack for the team bus to the airport, to the time you settle in at your hotel in the distant city, is a drain mentally and physically -jet lag, time zone differences, being stuffed in uncomfortable seats, etc. - and eats significantly into game preparation. And QBs talk about the differences in depth perception and sight-lines that are created in different stadiums thanks to different seating configurations, etc. And both QBs and kickers know the cross-winds that tend to develop in their home stadiums.

But in a bowl situation, that aspect of of being the road team is essentially eliminated, because both teams can arrive many days in advance, plenty of time to get over jet lag, adjust to the hotel, go out to the facility and practice. And neither team has the in-depth knowledge of sight-lines and winds, because even if OU is a lot closer to Dallas than Alabama, it's not OU's actual home facility either.

Plus, even the fans in the stands aspect is significantly different. From the point of view of being able to call signals and general team communication, there's a BIG difference between a true Oklahoma home game, where the crowd in Norman is going to be 97% pro-Oklahoma with a tiny visitor's section, and a bowl game at Dallas, where the crowd is likely to be 65 - 35 pro-Oklahoma. 65 - 35 doesn't put the other team at nearly the same noise disadvantage as 97 - 3 does, and plus there are enough of their fans to create significant noise for OU as well.

So when you add it all up, while there is an advantage for Oklahoma in playing an Alabama in Dallas, it's a very weak form of "home field" advantage. Not really worth worrying about.

That's probably why there doesn't seem to be much correlation in recent years between big bowl game results and this alleged advantage. E.g., at the Sugar Bowl, Alabama wiped out LSU when LSU allegedly had a big home advantage, and then the last two years, Oklahoma and Ohio State beat Alabama, despite the Sugar Bowl being SEC territory.

And in the Cotton Bowl, we see the same thing. In recent years, Ole Miss beat Texas Tech and Oklahoma State, Missouri beat Oklahoma State, Michigan State beat Baylor, and LSU beat Texas A/M. Dallas is in the heart of Big 12 country and yet the much-closer Big 12 teams have struggled to beat SEC and B1G teams traveling much farther and with presumably significantly fewer fans in the stands.

Except in this case it would've been a 50-50 split crowd. And, as you note, any advantage from Alabama having to travel would be nullified.
12-08-2015 10:45 AM
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Post: #79
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
Your goal to protect the rose bowl is wrong. There should NEVER be the chance of the top 2 teams EVER playing in the semifinals. Sorry that screws your precious Rose Bowl, but oh well. I've not conceded any point.

And bottom line, it's being seeded, and it will always be seeded.
12-08-2015 10:46 AM
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Post: #80
RE: It's Official: #1 Clemson, #2 Alabama, #3 MSU, #4 OK
(12-08-2015 10:46 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Your goal to protect the rose bowl is wrong. There should NEVER be the chance of the top 2 teams EVER playing in the semifinals. Sorry that screws your precious Rose Bowl, but oh well. I've not conceded any point.

And bottom line, it's being seeded, and it will always be seeded.

Pointing out that something likely won't happen is not a valid counter-argument in a discussion of if should happen.

Maybe you never wanted to even acknowledge the non-zero possibility of it happening, in the first place. That's fine. But since you already engaged in the discussion, then you backing out now is equivalent to conceding the point. You'll have to live with that.



I've already defeated the counter-point that the "top two shouldn't play in the first round", because as I correctly pointed out: the actual seeding of the top four is completely arbitrary and often incorrect. Last year proves that.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2015 12:54 PM by MplsBison.)
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