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Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
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SMUmustangs Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 10:04 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  The Big 12 may not need a championship game (other than the $25 million and great exposure that it would bring) but it definitely needs to expand (and to bridge the ludicrous footprint gap toward WVU) for other important reasons (not to mention actually having 12 schools in a conference called the Big 12). Easy to see why Texas does not want to expand, but the other schools are either fools or cowards afraid of Texas if they don't.

No other school in the Big12 is concerned about closing the gap with West Virginia. As for the name, that means nothing. The Big10 had eleven team for years and no one said anything and now they have fourteen.

As a Memphis fan I understand where you are coming from, but your argument does not hold up.
11-26-2015 10:57 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 10:57 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:04 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  The Big 12 may not need a championship game (other than the $25 million and great exposure that it would bring) but it definitely needs to expand (and to bridge the ludicrous footprint gap toward WVU) for other important reasons (not to mention actually having 12 schools in a conference called the Big 12). Easy to see why Texas does not want to expand, but the other schools are either fools or cowards afraid of Texas if they don't.

No other school in the Big12 is concerned about closing the gap with West Virginia. As for the name, that means nothing. The Big10 had eleven team for years and no one said anything and now they have fourteen.

As a Memphis fan I understand where you are coming from, but your argument does not hold up.

Very true. Nobody in the Big 12 outside of WV cares at all about that travel gap to WV. They certainly aren't going to share $35m in CFP and media money to close it.
11-26-2015 11:09 AM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
The CCG helps some years, hurts some years, but the biggest variable (for any league) is how good the overall resume is of the team(s) in contention. There is a tendency to focus on the outcome and look at the team(s) left out and conclude that the absence (or presence) of a CCG is the reason for the outcome. But it is just one of many variables and we tend to ignore the other probably more important reasons when considering the significance of the CCG.
11-26-2015 11:36 AM
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Gray Avenger Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:57 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:04 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  The Big 12 may not need a championship game (other than the $25 million and great exposure that it would bring) but it definitely needs to expand (and to bridge the ludicrous footprint gap toward WVU) for other important reasons (not to mention actually having 12 schools in a conference called the Big 12). Easy to see why Texas does not want to expand, but the other schools are either fools or cowards afraid of Texas if they don't.

No other school in the Big12 is concerned about closing the gap with West Virginia. As for the name, that means nothing. The Big10 had eleven team for years and no one said anything and now they have fourteen.

As a Memphis fan I understand where you are coming from, but your argument does not hold up.

Very true. Nobody in the Big 12 outside of WV cares at all about that travel gap to WV. They certainly aren't going to share $35m in CFP and media money to close it.

Successful conferences have sensible footprints and conference networks. Besides, the gap is only one problem. The Big 12 has the lowest population base, the fewest TV markets, the fewest number of teams and the fewest states of all "autonomy 5" conferences. Expansion is needed to correct those problems so that a conference network can be added.
11-26-2015 01:12 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 01:12 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  Successful conferences have sensible footprints and conference networks.

The Big 12 distributed over $25 million per school to its members last school year. UT makes more than most SEC schools, and OU and KU are close. "Poor", "isolated" WVU reported annual athletic revenue (see the other thread on this board) in the top half of P5 schools. There's no reasonable argument that the Big 12 is "unsuccessful".
11-26-2015 01:25 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 01:12 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:57 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:04 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  The Big 12 may not need a championship game (other than the $25 million and great exposure that it would bring) but it definitely needs to expand (and to bridge the ludicrous footprint gap toward WVU) for other important reasons (not to mention actually having 12 schools in a conference called the Big 12). Easy to see why Texas does not want to expand, but the other schools are either fools or cowards afraid of Texas if they don't.

No other school in the Big12 is concerned about closing the gap with West Virginia. As for the name, that means nothing. The Big10 had eleven team for years and no one said anything and now they have fourteen.

As a Memphis fan I understand where you are coming from, but your argument does not hold up.

Very true. Nobody in the Big 12 outside of WV cares at all about that travel gap to WV. They certainly aren't going to share $35m in CFP and media money to close it.

Successful conferences have sensible footprints and conference networks. Besides, the gap is only one problem. The Big 12 has the lowest population base, the fewest TV markets, the fewest number of teams and the fewest states of all "autonomy 5" conferences. Expansion is needed to correct those problems so that a conference network can be added.

I guess the question is if there is only model for success or multiple ones. And how the changing way we watch sports affects those models.
11-26-2015 02:08 PM
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SMUmustangs Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 01:12 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:57 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:04 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  The Big 12 may not need a championship game (other than the $25 million and great exposure that it would bring) but it definitely needs to expand (and to bridge the ludicrous footprint gap toward WVU) for other important reasons (not to mention actually having 12 schools in a conference called the Big 12). Easy to see why Texas does not want to expand, but the other schools are either fools or cowards afraid of Texas if they don't.

No other school in the Big12 is concerned about closing the gap with West Virginia. As for the name, that means nothing. The Big10 had eleven team for years and no one said anything and now they have fourteen.

As a Memphis fan I understand where you are coming from, but your argument does not hold up.

Very true. Nobody in the Big 12 outside of WV cares at all about that travel gap to WV. They certainly aren't going to share $35m in CFP and media money to close it.

Successful conferences have sensible footprints and conference networks. Besides, the gap is only one problem. The Big 12 has the lowest population base, the fewest TV markets, the fewest number of teams and the fewest states of all "autonomy 5" conferences. Expansion is needed to correct those problems so that a conference network can be added.

Please explain how the Big12 can have a conference network since Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas already have successful networks and are not likely to give them up. I am sorry but your argument loses credibility when you say the Big12 is not successful.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2015 03:36 PM by SMUmustangs.)
11-26-2015 03:29 PM
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Gray Avenger Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 01:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  There's no reasonable argument that the Big 12 is "unsuccessful".

Except that they are slowly but surely falling behind the other "autonomy 5" conferences, are less stable and more vulnerable to being raided (yet again). Why do you think Oklahoma's president is upset?
11-26-2015 03:54 PM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 11:36 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  The CCG helps some years, hurts some years, but the biggest variable (for any league) is how good the overall resume is of the team(s) in contention. There is a tendency to focus on the outcome and look at the team(s) left out and conclude that the absence (or presence) of a CCG is the reason for the outcome. But it is just one of many variables and we tend to ignore the other probably more important reasons when considering the significance of the CCG.

If you lose the conference championship, then you don't belong in the playoff. So it never hurts, since a team that loses shouldn't be in.
11-26-2015 04:26 PM
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mac6115cd Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
The CCG usually pits two ranked teams against each other - which results in a quality win for the conference champion. If the CCG (13th game) doesn't matter, then why should the SEC, B1G, ACC and Pac12 continue to have them?

If making the CFP is the main goal, it appears there's little upside vs the downside of losing. For example, if Clemson loses, there's a good chance they don't make the CFP, whereas if they win, they're no better off. The same for Alabama.

If OU gets in at 11-1 (1 game less and no CCG), then the other conferences should just copy the Big12 model and eliminate the CCG.
11-26-2015 04:28 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 03:54 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 01:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  There's no reasonable argument that the Big 12 is "unsuccessful".

Except that they are slowly but surely falling behind the other "autonomy 5" conferences, are less stable and more vulnerable to being raided (yet again). Why do you think Oklahoma's president is upset?

The Big 12 is less stable only because of their central geography, which makes it easier to be poached from the west, north, and east. And, the SEC and Big Ten make more money because they have more of the 10-15 most valuable "franchises". There is nothing about those two issues that could be "fixed" by adding more schools to the Big 12. OU's president acts out in public because there is nothing they can do to make the Big 12 as powerful as the SEC; because OU is joined at the hip to Ok St and isn't free to move alone; and because his politician's ego is irritated by the fact that UT has more power and influence.

If the Big 12 wants to expand, or if they don't, it's ok either way; that's their decision to make. But they don't need to expand.
11-26-2015 04:43 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 01:12 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:57 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 10:04 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  The Big 12 may not need a championship game (other than the $25 million and great exposure that it would bring) but it definitely needs to expand (and to bridge the ludicrous footprint gap toward WVU) for other important reasons (not to mention actually having 12 schools in a conference called the Big 12). Easy to see why Texas does not want to expand, but the other schools are either fools or cowards afraid of Texas if they don't.

No other school in the Big12 is concerned about closing the gap with West Virginia. As for the name, that means nothing. The Big10 had eleven team for years and no one said anything and now they have fourteen.

As a Memphis fan I understand where you are coming from, but your argument does not hold up.

Very true. Nobody in the Big 12 outside of WV cares at all about that travel gap to WV. They certainly aren't going to share $35m in CFP and media money to close it.

Successful conferences have sensible footprints and conference networks. Besides, the gap is only one problem. The Big 12 has the lowest population base, the fewest TV markets, the fewest number of teams and the fewest states of all "autonomy 5" conferences. Expansion is needed to correct those problems so that a conference network can be added.

By any standard, the Big 12 is very successful. They distribute the 3rd most money per school of the P5 conferences, and while the B1G and SEC are pulling away from them, they are pulling away from the PAC and ACC too.

More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any signs that the Big 12 agrees with you. The only public statements that the Big 12 has made with regard to expansion is their concern that not having a CCG might keep them out of the playoffs, and that having 12 teams is necessary to have a CCG.

But all signs are that if either (a) they can get the NCAA to let them have a CCG with 10 teams, or (b) it becomes clear they can make the playoffs without a CCG, they don't seem to feel any need to expand.

Look, we are both coming from the same place: You want the Big 12 to expand because maybe they would pick Memphis. I want them to expand because maybe they'd take USF. But honestly, I don't see it happening anytime soon.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2015 05:14 PM by quo vadis.)
11-26-2015 05:13 PM
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Gray Avenger Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 05:13 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any signs that the Big 12 agrees with you.

Oklahoma's president agrees with me, according to his public statement a few months ago, and he wasn't just talking about playoff chances. He wants a conference network and expansion will absolutely be necessary for that. I'm willing to bet that he isn't the only Big 12 leader who feels that way.
11-26-2015 06:53 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 06:53 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 05:13 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any signs that the Big 12 agrees with you.

Oklahoma's president agrees with me, according to his public statement a few months ago, and he wasn't just talking about playoff chances. He wants a conference network and expansion will absolutely be necessary for that. I'm willing to bet that he isn't the only Big 12 leader who feels that way.

He asked for things that he knows cannot and will not be delivered.
11-26-2015 09:34 PM
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Gray Avenger Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 09:34 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 06:53 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 05:13 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any signs that the Big 12 agrees with you.

Oklahoma's president agrees with me, according to his public statement a few months ago, and he wasn't just talking about playoff chances. He wants a conference network and expansion will absolutely be necessary for that. I'm willing to bet that he isn't the only Big 12 leader who feels that way.

He asked for things that he knows cannot and will not be delivered.

You are probably right. I did not say that I think the Big 12 WILL expand - only that they SHOULD. They will be raided sooner or later and the left behinds will then attempt to back-fill like the Big East did. By then it will be too late as the expansion then will be perceived as desperation and the added schools will not have the advantage of having a few years to become "P5 worthy". The Big 12 will then be demoted to "G5" status just as the Big East was. AAC schools may very well be better off staying put as they will have better population bases and TV markets.
11-27-2015 11:46 AM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-27-2015 11:46 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 09:34 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 06:53 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 05:13 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any signs that the Big 12 agrees with you.

Oklahoma's president agrees with me, according to his public statement a few months ago, and he wasn't just talking about playoff chances. He wants a conference network and expansion will absolutely be necessary for that. I'm willing to bet that he isn't the only Big 12 leader who feels that way.

He asked for things that he knows cannot and will not be delivered.

You are probably right. I did not say that I think the Big 12 WILL expand - only that they SHOULD. They will be raided sooner or later and the left behinds will then attempt to back-fill like the Big East did. By then it will be too late as the expansion then will be perceived as desperation and the added schools will not have the advantage of having a few years to become "P5 worthy". The Big 12 will then be demoted to "G5" status just as the Big East was. AAC schools may very well be better off staying put as they will have better population bases and TV markets.

Well, the reason for him to ask for what he cannot and will not be given is exactly because he knows he cannot and will not be given it. Hell, he may not actually even want it himself. He knows though that the votes aren't there so that way he can use it later on as a reason for some other action, whatever that may be.

The big 12 will only be demoted to G5 status if it's major brands depart, leaving others there.
11-27-2015 11:53 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-27-2015 11:46 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 09:34 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 06:53 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 05:13 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any signs that the Big 12 agrees with you.

Oklahoma's president agrees with me, according to his public statement a few months ago, and he wasn't just talking about playoff chances. He wants a conference network and expansion will absolutely be necessary for that. I'm willing to bet that he isn't the only Big 12 leader who feels that way.

He asked for things that he knows cannot and will not be delivered.

You are probably right. I did not say that I think the Big 12 WILL expand - only that they SHOULD. They will be raided sooner or later and the left behinds will then attempt to back-fill like the Big East did. By then it will be too late as the expansion then will be perceived as desperation and the added schools will not have the advantage of having a few years to become "P5 worthy". The Big 12 will then be demoted to "G5" status just as the Big East was. AAC schools may very well be better off staying put as they will have better population bases and TV markets.

It depends on who leaves. As long as Texas and Oklahoma remain, it doesn't matter if all the other eight schools depart, the Big 12 will remain a P5 conference no matter who those two backfill with.
11-27-2015 12:01 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
(11-26-2015 04:43 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 03:54 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  
(11-26-2015 01:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  There's no reasonable argument that the Big 12 is "unsuccessful".

Except that they are slowly but surely falling behind the other "autonomy 5" conferences, are less stable and more vulnerable to being raided (yet again). Why do you think Oklahoma's president is upset?

The Big 12 is less stable only because of their central geography, which makes it easier to be poached from the west, north, and east. And, the SEC and Big Ten make more money because they have more of the 10-15 most valuable "franchises". There is nothing about those two issues that could be "fixed" by adding more schools to the Big 12. OU's president acts out in public because there is nothing they can do to make the Big 12 as powerful as the SEC; because OU is joined at the hip to Ok St and isn't free to move alone; and because his politician's ego is irritated by the fact that UT has more power and influence.

If the Big 12 wants to expand, or if they don't, it's ok either way; that's their decision to make. But they don't need to expand.

For some reason the belief persists there is a "magic" number. Get to that number and wonderful things happen without regard to the combined value of the product.

There is only one school that fits the model of being a significant addition. BYU and they aren't such a clear obvious selection that they've been snapped up.

Right now unless Big XII can add a needle moving program the only motivation to expand is convenience, simplifying scheduling and/or travel.
11-27-2015 02:55 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
It's not looking like they need to expand. Houston and UC would be most obvious to get to 2 divisions, but at this point, you might as well leave it as is. Houston doesn't add additional subscribers and UC does little by themselves. Memphis isn't much of an addition either. The Big 12 should just view itself as a single division and leave it as is. It allows powers like UT and OU to emerge without knocking themselves out at the end.
(This post was last modified: 11-27-2015 03:07 PM by RUScarlets.)
11-27-2015 03:05 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Note to anyone who thinks the Big 12 "needs" a conference title game
ESPN might either A:Pull the plug on the failed Longhorn Network, or B:Tell Texas that the only way to save the Longhorn Network is to make it into a Big 12 Network. If something is failing? It gets revamped to be something better. TNN aka The Nashville Network revamped and turned into Spike.

Now, the problem is they need some major markets to sell their Big 12 product. Cincinnati, UCF, Memphis, Houston, Northern Illinois, Temple, East Carolina and Old Dominion would bring some good size markets. UCF and USF TV markets overlapped each other which is already a problem with the Big 12 right now with Oklahoma/Oklahoma State and Kansas/Kansas State.

Big 12 will be left behind. They need to swallow their pride and expand already. This would dilute the AAC again by taken 6 of their schools.
11-27-2015 03:54 PM
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