It is a system that has proven can be beaten.....your thoughts and then I will share with everyone why EMU must be able to go to a man to man defense.

unless he has the speed he has to.

I love when people complain about the zone. We are near the top (in the entire nation) in defensive efficiency EVERY YEAR, yet people still complain about the zone. It cracks me up.

(11-20-2015 12:35 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love when people complain about the zone. We are near the top (in the entire nation) in defensive efficiency EVERY YEAR, yet people still complain about the zone. It cracks me up.

I don't have a problem with the 2-3 zone, however I don' t think this year's team will be at the top of the defensive efficiency charts.

(11-20-2015 11:12 AM)Luckeyone Wrote:  It is a system that has proven can be beaten.....

oh basketball guru, please tell me about the unbeatable defense.

The zone is fine; it's Murphy's inability to do anything else (when it isn't working) that is infuriating.

He runs it because it works

Luckeyone, I agree with you that Murphy may oberemphasizes the zone only to the extent that he may neglect some aspects of the game that he could otherwise benefit from. Such as, an occasional switch up to man to strategically disrupt opposing game plans or rhythms. Or a little more focus on offensive strategies could be benefit as well.

You will no doubt bring up some valid points. And I am interested to hear them. But might I suggest you also acknowledge Murphy has had some success with this over emphasis of the zone , particularly in the non conference . ( they are not all cupcakes)

(11-20-2015 02:20 PM)emu79 Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 12:35 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love when people complain about the zone. We are near the top (in the entire nation) in defensive efficiency EVERY YEAR, yet people still complain about the zone. It cracks me up.

I don't have a problem with the 2-3 zone, however I don' t think this year's team will be at the top of the defensive efficiency charts.

It looked to me we were playing a 1-3-1 our point guard picks up and stays with the ball handler.

OK, I wanted to comment on our 2-3 zone defense but let me add that I was recruited to play small college basketball (I was not even close to being a D1 player) and that I coached travel basketball teams (including Theron Wilson's son and Coach Thomas' son in their youth and I have coached travel teams during the summer with players going to D1,D2, and D3. However, I am an engineer by profession and love basketball recreationally :-)

1) OK the zone is very vulnerable to leaving offensive players open for wide open shots. Duke University did a study in the ACC and found that the shooting percentage for players in their conference goes down from like 58% to 25%? if the shooter has a hand in their face. With the correct offense and some patience the ball can be reversed to get a good shooter a wide open look. Good Coaches like Greg Campe put players on the baseline which resulted in spreading out our zone and created easy baskets and open looks. Coaches who play in our conference and see our zone often have figured out the same thing as Campe which is why Murphy is hovering at 0.500 winning percentage.

2) The zone is vulnerable for leaving you out of position for rebounding. If a team takes a shot, and crashes the glass at the weak side with two or more players then there are not enough defenders to box them out. In our zone the wings play too high leaving the paint open especially when the offensive set is in motion with multiple cutters going to the paint. Again a good coach like Campe exposed this vulnerability.

3) Why do our centers (currently Thompdon) always get in foul trouble even when we had Riley? The answer is the way Murphy teaches the zone. Murphy teaches our centers to play behind the post players and allowing easy entry passes to them. Once in the post, shot fakes get our centers in the air out of position while they try to block the shot which results in fouls.

A better way for our centers to play low post defense would be to have them deny the entry pass to the low post by playing in front of the offensive man unless of course they cut 6-10 feet from the basket.

Now to RayEMU's point, I can not deny that Murphy has had OOC with the zone. I believe due to two reasons: 1) Marginal competition. 2) Most teams not being used to zone defense.

Moreover, there are times to play a zone. For example, 1) if you play a more athletic team and you simply can not stay in front of them with a man to man. 2) You are playing a against a poor outside shooting team and you pack the zone in giving you more bodies to deny post entry passes and to box out post players.

I give Murphy credit for bringing in talented players. However we should not get blown out by Louisville and Kentucky by 40-50points. Pitino and Calipari know how to take advantage of zone defense. Buffalo played man to man I believe against Kentucky last year and kept the game close. Yes, I realize UB was talented but so was EMU.

Finally, as RayEMU pointed out the zone could be used to switch up the defense and take the offense out of rhythm; however, due to the vulnerability of the zone defense, it should be used occasionally and not extensively. Why do you think 99% of college basketball teams play predominantly man to man defense?

(11-22-2015 08:04 AM)Luckeyone Wrote:  OK, I wanted to comment on our 2-3 zone defense but let me add that I was recruited to play small college basketball (I was not even close to being a D1 player) and that I coached travel basketball teams (including Theron Wilson's son and Coach Thomas' son in their youth and I have coached travel teams during the summer with players going to D1,D2, and D3. However, I am an engineer by profession and love basketball recreationally :-)

1) OK the zone is very vulnerable to leaving offensive players open for wide open shots. Duke University did a study in the ACC and found that the shooting percentage for players in their conference goes down from like 58% to 25%? if the shooter has a hand in their face. With the correct offense and some patience the ball can be reversed to get a good shooter a wide open look. Good Coaches like Greg Campe put players on the baseline which resulted in spreading out our zone and created easy baskets and open looks. Coaches who play in our conference and see our zone often have figured out the same thing as Campe which is why Murphy is hovering at 0.500 winning percentage.

2) The zone is vulnerable for leaving you out of position for rebounding. If a team takes a shot, and crashes the glass at the weak side with two or more players then there are not enough defenders to box them out. In our zone the wings play too high leaving the paint open especially when the offensive set is in motion with multiple cutters going to the paint. Again a good coach like Campe exposed this vulnerability.

3) Why do our centers (currently Thompdon) always get in foul trouble even when we had Riley? The answer is the way Murphy teaches the zone. Murphy teaches our centers to play behind the post players and allowing easy entry passes to them. Once in the post, shot fakes get our centers in the air out of position while they try to block the shot which results in fouls.

A better way for our centers to play low post defense would be to have them deny the entry pass to the low post by playing in front of the offensive man unless of course they cut 6-10 feet from the basket.

Now to RayEMU's point, I can not deny that Murphy has had OOC with the zone. I believe due to two reasons: 1) Marginal competition. 2) Most teams not being used to zone defense.

Moreover, there are times to play a zone. For example, 1) if you play a more athletic team and you simply can not stay in front of them with a man to man. 2) You are playing a against a poor outside shooting team and you pack the zone in giving you more bodies to deny post entry passes and to box out post players.

I give Murphy credit for bringing in talented players. However we should not get blown out by Louisville and Kentucky by 40-50points. Pitino and Calipari know how to take advantage of zone defense. Buffalo played man to man I believe against Kentucky last year and kept the game close. Yes, I realize UB was talented but so was EMU.

Finally, as RayEMU pointed out the zone could be used to switch up the defense and take the offense out of rhythm; however, due to the vulnerability of the zone defense, it should be used occasionally and not extensively. Why do you think 99% of college basketball teams play predominantly man to man defense?

if you want to complain about our offense then that's great. i'm with you. our offensive scheme wavers between confusing and non-existent. if you want to complain about Murphy recruiting kids with a sketchy background then that's legit. i don't agree (i think people can mess up and learn from it) but i understand why people dislike that. complaining about us not being good enough on defense doesn't make sense. here are our offensive and defensive efficiency (points per possession) rankings from the last three seasons (from teamrankings.com):

2014-2015
offensive efficiency - 196
defensive efficiency - 81

2013-2014
offensive efficiency - 314
defensive efficiency - 15

2012-2013
offensive efficiency - 329
defensive efficiency - 89

our defense is much, much, much more effective than our offense. i don't think our defense is perfect, but given the talent available to a MAC school, our defense is pretty impressive. i urge you to consider looking up these numbers for MAC games. our defense is regularly at the top of the MAC and our offense is regularly at the bottom.

Another to play zone is cover a defensive weakness. There are more than one zone defense 1-3-1, 2-3, 2-1-2 all of these are used to protect your team defensive weakness. It is also used to force the other team into your strength, good rebounding and a fast break.

Jesus Christ, when will you guys drop it. Our defense has been great since Murph came here - one of the best in the MAC. We need to keep on improving on offense. One bad defensive game and you guys want to take apart the whole scheme.

(11-22-2015 09:32 AM)EMUAARON Wrote:  

(11-22-2015 08:04 AM)Luckeyone Wrote:  OK, I wanted to comment on our 2-3 zone defense but let me add that I was recruited to play small college basketball (I was not even close to being a D1 player) and that I coached travel basketball teams (including Theron Wilson's son and Coach Thomas' son in their youth and I have coached travel teams during the summer with players going to D1,D2, and D3. However, I am an engineer by profession and love basketball recreationally :-)

1) OK the zone is very vulnerable to leaving offensive players open for wide open shots. Duke University did a study in the ACC and found that the shooting percentage for players in their conference goes down from like 58% to 25%? if the shooter has a hand in their face. With the correct offense and some patience the ball can be reversed to get a good shooter a wide open look. Good Coaches like Greg Campe put players on the baseline which resulted in spreading out our zone and created easy baskets and open looks. Coaches who play in our conference and see our zone often have figured out the same thing as Campe which is why Murphy is hovering at 0.500 winning percentage.

2) The zone is vulnerable for leaving you out of position for rebounding. If a team takes a shot, and crashes the glass at the weak side with two or more players then there are not enough defenders to box them out. In our zone the wings play too high leaving the paint open especially when the offensive set is in motion with multiple cutters going to the paint. Again a good coach like Campe exposed this vulnerability.

3) Why do our centers (currently Thompdon) always get in foul trouble even when we had Riley? The answer is the way Murphy teaches the zone. Murphy teaches our centers to play behind the post players and allowing easy entry passes to them. Once in the post, shot fakes get our centers in the air out of position while they try to block the shot which results in fouls.

A better way for our centers to play low post defense would be to have them deny the entry pass to the low post by playing in front of the offensive man unless of course they cut 6-10 feet from the basket.

Now to RayEMU's point, I can not deny that Murphy has had OOC with the zone. I believe due to two reasons: 1) Marginal competition. 2) Most teams not being used to zone defense.

Moreover, there are times to play a zone. For example, 1) if you play a more athletic team and you simply can not stay in front of them with a man to man. 2) You are playing a against a poor outside shooting team and you pack the zone in giving you more bodies to deny post entry passes and to box out post players.

I give Murphy credit for bringing in talented players. However we should not get blown out by Louisville and Kentucky by 40-50points. Pitino and Calipari know how to take advantage of zone defense. Buffalo played man to man I believe against Kentucky last year and kept the game close. Yes, I realize UB was talented but so was EMU.

Finally, as RayEMU pointed out the zone could be used to switch up the defense and take the offense out of rhythm; however, due to the vulnerability of the zone defense, it should be used occasionally and not extensively. Why do you think 99% of college basketball teams play predominantly man to man defense?

if you want to complain about our offense then that's great. i'm with you. our offensive scheme wavers between confusing and non-existent. if you want to complain about Murphy recruiting kids with a sketchy background then that's legit. i don't agree (i think people can mess up and learn from it) but i understand why people dislike that. complaining about us not being good enough on defense doesn't make sense. here are our offensive and defensive efficiency (points per possession) rankings from the last three seasons (from teamrankings.com):

2014-2015
offensive efficiency - 196
defensive efficiency - 81

2013-2014
offensive efficiency - 314
defensive efficiency - 15

2012-2013
offensive efficiency - 329
defensive efficiency - 89

our defense is much, much, much more effective than our offense. i don't think our defense is perfect, but given the talent available to a MAC school, our defense is pretty impressive. i urge you to consider looking up these numbers for MAC games. our defense is regularly at the top of the MAC and our offense is regularly at the bottom.

Tell me the rank of the last four teams that won the MAC Championship? Also tell me did the last four Champions play zone or man to man? How about the last four NCAA champions- did they play zone exclusively? Answer: No!

Lucky :

In Murphy's zone the Center should be fronting the post at all times. If he is not doing that he is not performing his job. Watch how Cuse does it, they run exactly the same thing.

(11-22-2015 10:16 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  Another to play zone is cover a defensive weakness. There are more than one zone defense 1-3-1, 2-3, 2-1-2 all of these are used to protect your team defensive weakness. It is also used to force the other team into your strength, good rebounding and a fast break.

Agree Super that the zone can protect your weakness. However the zone will become a weakness if that's the only thing you do.

You should google how many great college coaches have adapted some form of Syracuse zone. And they run it extensively.

(11-22-2015 01:39 PM)realistEagle Wrote:  Lucky :

In Murphy's zone the Center should be fronting the post at all times. If he is not doing that he is not performing his job. Watch how Cuse does it, they run exactly the same thing.

Are you sure? I have watched Murphy's zone since he's been here and I see the centers playing behind the post. That's what we did against Oakland too. This is easily correctable and I hope it gets fixed. With the thoroughbreds Murphy has, it would be interesting to mix up some man to man. Oh yeah Northern Iowa beat North Carolina yesterday playing man to man

(11-22-2015 01:48 PM)Luckeyone Wrote:  

(11-22-2015 01:39 PM)realistEagle Wrote:  Lucky :

In Murphy's zone the Center should be fronting the post at all times. If he is not doing that he is not performing his job. Watch how Cuse does it, they run exactly the same thing.

Are you sure? I have watched Murphy's zone since he's been here and I see the centers playing behind the post. That's what we did against Oakland too. This is easily correctable and I hope it gets fixed. With the thoroughbreds Murphy has, it would be interesting to mix up some man to man. Oh yeah Northern Iowa beat North Carolina yesterday playing man to man

I am 100% sure of it. I know it's hard to enforce that because it a lot of work fighting for the position and many guys don't want to do it. I know for the first few years he was enforcing it and it was being done by some guys better than the other. I am sure Riley pretty much didn't care about that rule because he can still stop almost anyone in there but if you watch Cuse their guys almost always try to get in front

Just a non expert opinion what will hurt this team this year playing the zone on an effective basis is the lack of depth at center and not allowing us to rotate the center position, most of the centers that have been here the past two years were stronger and more experienced than Thompson. I don't see this as a problem next year is LWH is even around and eligible to play. Thompson has some raw talent but it will be frustrating this year because there isn't another true center on the roster. Our 2-3 is a little rough right now as we fit the newcomers into assignments and the scheme. That part will get better prior to conference play.