(11-20-2015 02:49 PM)5thTiger Wrote:  Not jumping in on the race discussion...but for a person from Missouri...Virginia sure as heck isn't the south, and I wouldn't call North Carolina the South either.

"The South" to me, and likely others from other Non-southern regions is this...with a few qualifications for each.

Florida- definitely a piece of the South, but its own animal.

Deep South- Alabama, Mississippi,Tennessee, most of Georgia, parts of South Carolina.

Definitely Southern, but a splash of their own culture - Arkansas, Louisiana

Tweeners- Sorta southern, but sorta not- North Carolina, Kentucky.

If they had given the western most portion of North Carolina to South Carolina, to where it borders tennessee, that is probably the most accurate to me.

Texas and Oklahoma are Southwestern...which is different than the South. Virginia, Maryland, and most of North Carolina are the "atlantic coast' or Mid-atlantic as some have said here.

I live in Virginia. Leave the DC suburbs and you are in the South, no doubt. I am from North Carolina. It is the South. Anyone that thinks otherwise has only been to tourist spots.

(11-20-2015 03:05 PM)samandrea Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 02:49 PM)5thTiger Wrote:  Not jumping in on the race discussion...but for a person from Missouri...Virginia sure as heck isn't the south, and I wouldn't call North Carolina the South either.

"The South" to me, and likely others from other Non-southern regions is this...with a few qualifications for each.

Florida- definitely a piece of the South, but its own animal.

Deep South- Alabama, Mississippi,Tennessee, most of Georgia, parts of South Carolina.

Definitely Southern, but a splash of their own culture - Arkansas, Louisiana

Tweeners- Sorta southern, but sorta not- North Carolina, Kentucky.

If they had given the western most portion of North Carolina to South Carolina, to where it borders tennessee, that is probably the most accurate to me.

Texas and Oklahoma are Southwestern...which is different than the South. Virginia, Maryland, and most of North Carolina are the "atlantic coast' or Mid-atlantic as some have said here.

I live in Virginia. Leave the DC suburbs and you are in the South, no doubt. I am from North Carolina. It is the South. Anyone that thinks otherwise has only been to tourist spots.

I think there has to be a middle ground between the two obvious regions, where you can't say it belongs to for sure to either.

Obvious North: Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, PA, Delaware

Obvious South: Louisiana, Tenn, Miss, Alabama, Georgia, SC

Middle ground: Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia

(11-20-2015 02:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 10:10 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 05:33 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 10:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 09:05 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  The regions overlap. I think North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, New York, and New Jersey are all considered Mid-Atlantic. North Carolina and Virginia would also be southern while New York and New Jersey northeast. Maryland would have traditionally been viewed as southern, but has been viewed more northern for quite awhile. It kind of depends on what definitions you want to use.

Regardless, southern talent has definitely gained over the years. It used to be that Ohio talent almost alone would leave Ohio State and Michigan as national powers, give some help to the other Big Ten schools, and make the MAC a stronger regional mid-major. Virtually all of these schools are looking south more even though Ohio still produces talent. A similar story can be told in other states.

Well, when I was referring to the South (and Southern players), I mean what is universally recognized as the South, and not "overlapping regions". NC and VA don't count.

In other words, states run by old, white, male Evangelical Protestant Christians, and whose rural counties are demographically dominated by poor, Black decedents of slaves, who get no help from their state.

Birmingham, Atlanta, New Orleans, Miami, and other Southern cities don't meet your criteria? And you ought to try spending some time down here and see how much state help the truly poor get. It may not be what it is in the North, but it is certainly more than you might suspect. The real eye opener is that in many places the poor white on welfare outnumber the African Americans . But, I've been to your Northern cities and the disparity there is pretty stark as well. New York, Detroit/Pontiac, Washington D.C., Chicago, and Philadelphia leap to the forefront of my thoughts.

And while in the Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota and Michigan areas members of my family helped with the social work for the Native Americans that old white, mostly protestant Northerners had disenfranchised in many instances far worse than the South managed to do during Reconstruction and following. It's just that it is so very hard to see what you aren't willing to admit you have done.

Substitute Lutheran and Presbyterian and Episcopalian for Baptist and Methodist and substitute Native Americans for African Americans and the sin is the same. It's the projection of Notherners against the South's racial prejudice that is just so disgusting. It's too bad most Southerners haven't had exposure to the Reservations, segregation, and job discrimination that Native Amercians experience at your hands. I guess the casinos make up for all of that huh? And by the way the last race riots between our two regions were held in Pontiac and Boston, and held over the issue of busing for the purpose of integrating African Americans into predominantly white schools. Hmmm? Most of the country only thought that happened in the South. We have a plethora of sins to answer for and some of them violent, but we never overturned school buses and set them ablaze. The South was integrated from the late 1950's in some states and from the early 1960's until the mid 60's in Deep South. The riots in Pontiac and Boston were in the early 70's when the changes forced in the South came home to roost in the North.

I've lived all over. Asian Americans are discriminated against in the Northwest and into California. Mexican Americans and Hispanics in general in the Southwest and throughout the Southern Midwest, African Americans in the South and up the Eastern Seaboard and Native Americans throughout the Plains and Northern Midwest. Racism is everyone's problem sir. As one book says, "Remove the log from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from that of your brother."

i) Nice try.

Racism in the south towards black descendants of slaves is several orders of magnitude higher than racism anywhere else in the country towards black descendants of slaves or any other race/ethnicity.

Not even close. And especially in the North towards Native Americans? You wish. There's probably more racism in the South towards your own Native Americans. You did the exact same thing. So please.

In fact, I know in Alabama not too long ago, the sole Casino in the state (on a Native American reservation, in the south central part of the state) came under fire from the white, Evangelical Protestants that run the state. They want badly to shut it down, but thus far have failed.


ii) The term "African-Americans" doesn't work anymore in referencing black descendants of slaves.

Maybe the rest of the country doesn't get it yet, but it's quite apparent in Minneapolis, where first and second generation Somali (and other East African country) immigrants are thriving and outnumber black descendants of slaves here, who suffer from similar problems of poverty and crime as elsewhere in the country.

And they don't look alike at all, except for skin color. And I think (though I don't know) that (local) black descendants of slaves culture largely rejects recent African immigrants as "not apart of us".

I don't know where in Africa most American slaves came from, if it was West, Central or where, but it definitely wasn't East Africa.

Obviously the term "black descendants of slaves" is way too cumbersome and will never work. But I don't know what else to call them. Just "black" doesn't work and just "African American" doesn't work, because recent East African immigrants are both of those.

You've never been out of the North have you? And you are dead wrong. The Native Americans lived in conditions more deplorable than the vast majority of blacks in the South. And that's not even close. This is the type of crap that Northern bigots spew all of the time. As long as your economic class prevents your having to socialize, go to school with, or live with most minorities then the problem is dealt with by criticizing another region of the country, usually the South, so you can feel as though you are above the kinds of discrimination more overtly attributed and seen elsewhere. Only you are not.

The glass ceiling in the North, and the unmentioned, whispered on the side discrimination is what you practice up there. Those I've know who have experienced in both places say they prefer the upfront racism of the South to the real, but silent and denied kind they find in the North.

I've visited or lived in 47 of the 48 contiguous, 3 provinces in Canada, and have made other travels outside of the U.S.. I spent two decades of my life working non-profit with the impoverished and I can tell you it is everywhere, but nowhere has it come out in the open and been as honestly acknowledged as it is in the South. At least that is the necessary first step in addressing the pervasive issue. Your response is exactly what I expected. We don't have any inner city area down here that compares to Chicago's South side. I guess that didn't happen to the same set of circumstances? You talk about slavery. Undocumented workers are the new version and they are nationwide. Prostitution is another form. So get real. Our problems with race, class, and the quasi enslavement of the marginalized is legion and it is right there in your Twin Cities as surely as it is in Atlanta. Serve in a soup kitchen this holiday season and then tell me otherwise.

I'm not denying your life experience. You should write a book.

In both this post and last post, you keep trying to change the argument. You seem to want to argue that racism exists everywhere in some form, and thus the South's racism is justified.


I'm arguing that the racism the South has against black descendants of slaves is several orders of magnitude higher than racism of any type anywhere else towards any race/ethnicity.


You may perceive this and that about "discrimination" in the north based on your experiences, but I don't think there's anything to back that up.


And I don't advocate that the Twin Cities is devoid of poverty or minorities. Again, that's not relevant to the argument I'm trying to make.

You seem to openly acknowledge the South's problems with black descendants of slaves. Ok, then. That's really all I was pointing out. Why the big stink?

(11-20-2015 02:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The glass ceiling in the North, and the unmentioned, whispered on the side discrimination is what you practice up there. Those I've know who have experienced in both places say they prefer the upfront racism of the South to the real, but silent and denied kind they find in the North.

Just to break this up a bit, Dave Chappelle referenced this exactly in one of his stand up routines.

(11-20-2015 10:10 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 05:33 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 10:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 09:05 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  The regions overlap. I think North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, New York, and New Jersey are all considered Mid-Atlantic. North Carolina and Virginia would also be southern while New York and New Jersey northeast. Maryland would have traditionally been viewed as southern, but has been viewed more northern for quite awhile. It kind of depends on what definitions you want to use.

Regardless, southern talent has definitely gained over the years. It used to be that Ohio talent almost alone would leave Ohio State and Michigan as national powers, give some help to the other Big Ten schools, and make the MAC a stronger regional mid-major. Virtually all of these schools are looking south more even though Ohio still produces talent. A similar story can be told in other states.

Well, when I was referring to the South (and Southern players), I mean what is universally recognized as the South, and not "overlapping regions". NC and VA don't count.

In other words, states run by old, white, male Evangelical Protestant Christians, and whose rural counties are demographically dominated by poor, Black decedents of slaves, who get no help from their state.

Birmingham, Atlanta, New Orleans, Miami, and other Southern cities don't meet your criteria? And you ought to try spending some time down here and see how much state help the truly poor get. It may not be what it is in the North, but it is certainly more than you might suspect. The real eye opener is that in many places the poor white on welfare outnumber the African Americans . But, I've been to your Northern cities and the disparity there is pretty stark as well. New York, Detroit/Pontiac, Washington D.C., Chicago, and Philadelphia leap to the forefront of my thoughts.

And while in the Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota and Michigan areas members of my family helped with the social work for the Native Americans that old white, mostly protestant Northerners had disenfranchised in many instances far worse than the South managed to do during Reconstruction and following. It's just that it is so very hard to see what you aren't willing to admit you have done.

Substitute Lutheran and Presbyterian and Episcopalian for Baptist and Methodist and substitute Native Americans for African Americans and the sin is the same. It's the projection of Notherners against the South's racial prejudice that is just so disgusting. It's too bad most Southerners haven't had exposure to the Reservations, segregation, and job discrimination that Native Amercians experience at your hands. I guess the casinos make up for all of that huh? And by the way the last race riots between our two regions were held in Pontiac and Boston, and held over the issue of busing for the purpose of integrating African Americans into predominantly white schools. Hmmm? Most of the country only thought that happened in the South. We have a plethora of sins to answer for and some of them violent, but we never overturned school buses and set them ablaze. The South was integrated from the late 1950's in some states and from the early 1960's until the mid 60's in Deep South. The riots in Pontiac and Boston were in the early 70's when the changes forced in the South came home to roost in the North.

I've lived all over. Asian Americans are discriminated against in the Northwest and into California. Mexican Americans and Hispanics in general in the Southwest and throughout the Southern Midwest, African Americans in the South and up the Eastern Seaboard and Native Americans throughout the Plains and Northern Midwest. Racism is everyone's problem sir. As one book says, "Remove the log from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from that of your brother."

i) Nice try.

Racism in the south towards black descendants of slaves is several orders of magnitude higher than racism anywhere else in the country towards black descendants of slaves or any other race/ethnicity.

Not even close. And especially in the North towards Native Americans? You wish. There's probably more racism in the South towards your own Native Americans. You did the exact same thing. So please.

In fact, I know in Alabama not too long ago, the sole Casino in the state (on a Native American reservation, in the south central part of the state) came under fire from the white, Evangelical Protestants that run the state. They want badly to shut it down, but thus far have failed.


ii) The term "African-Americans" doesn't work anymore in referencing black descendants of slaves.

Maybe the rest of the country doesn't get it yet, but it's quite apparent in Minneapolis, where first and second generation Somali (and other East African country) immigrants are thriving and outnumber black descendants of slaves here, who suffer from similar problems of poverty and crime as elsewhere in the country.

And they don't look alike at all, except for skin color. And I think (though I don't know) that (local) black descendants of slaves culture largely rejects recent African immigrants as "not apart of us".

I don't know where in Africa most American slaves came from, if it was West, Central or where, but it definitely wasn't East Africa.

Obviously the term "black descendants of slaves" is way too cumbersome and will never work. But I don't know what else to call them. Just "black" doesn't work and just "African American" doesn't work, because recent East African immigrants are both of those.

This coming from a North Dakota / Minnesota resident.

You PC too bro?

(11-20-2015 03:36 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 02:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The glass ceiling in the North, and the unmentioned, whispered on the side discrimination is what you practice up there. Those I've know who have experienced in both places say they prefer the upfront racism of the South to the real, but silent and denied kind they find in the North.

Just to break this up a bit, Dave Chappelle referenced this exactly in one of his stand up routines.

Funny segment.

I hardly think Chappelle advocates for the "out in the open" version vs this supposed "secret" version.

In fact, I think that was his gag.

(11-20-2015 03:35 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 02:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 10:10 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 05:33 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 10:31 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well, when I was referring to the South (and Southern players), I mean what is universally recognized as the South, and not "overlapping regions". NC and VA don't count.

In other words, states run by old, white, male Evangelical Protestant Christians, and whose rural counties are demographically dominated by poor, Black decedents of slaves, who get no help from their state.

Birmingham, Atlanta, New Orleans, Miami, and other Southern cities don't meet your criteria? And you ought to try spending some time down here and see how much state help the truly poor get. It may not be what it is in the North, but it is certainly more than you might suspect. The real eye opener is that in many places the poor white on welfare outnumber the African Americans . But, I've been to your Northern cities and the disparity there is pretty stark as well. New York, Detroit/Pontiac, Washington D.C., Chicago, and Philadelphia leap to the forefront of my thoughts.

And while in the Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota and Michigan areas members of my family helped with the social work for the Native Americans that old white, mostly protestant Northerners had disenfranchised in many instances far worse than the South managed to do during Reconstruction and following. It's just that it is so very hard to see what you aren't willing to admit you have done.

Substitute Lutheran and Presbyterian and Episcopalian for Baptist and Methodist and substitute Native Americans for African Americans and the sin is the same. It's the projection of Notherners against the South's racial prejudice that is just so disgusting. It's too bad most Southerners haven't had exposure to the Reservations, segregation, and job discrimination that Native Amercians experience at your hands. I guess the casinos make up for all of that huh? And by the way the last race riots between our two regions were held in Pontiac and Boston, and held over the issue of busing for the purpose of integrating African Americans into predominantly white schools. Hmmm? Most of the country only thought that happened in the South. We have a plethora of sins to answer for and some of them violent, but we never overturned school buses and set them ablaze. The South was integrated from the late 1950's in some states and from the early 1960's until the mid 60's in Deep South. The riots in Pontiac and Boston were in the early 70's when the changes forced in the South came home to roost in the North.

I've lived all over. Asian Americans are discriminated against in the Northwest and into California. Mexican Americans and Hispanics in general in the Southwest and throughout the Southern Midwest, African Americans in the South and up the Eastern Seaboard and Native Americans throughout the Plains and Northern Midwest. Racism is everyone's problem sir. As one book says, "Remove the log from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from that of your brother."

i) Nice try.

Racism in the south towards black descendants of slaves is several orders of magnitude higher than racism anywhere else in the country towards black descendants of slaves or any other race/ethnicity.

Not even close. And especially in the North towards Native Americans? You wish. There's probably more racism in the South towards your own Native Americans. You did the exact same thing. So please.

In fact, I know in Alabama not too long ago, the sole Casino in the state (on a Native American reservation, in the south central part of the state) came under fire from the white, Evangelical Protestants that run the state. They want badly to shut it down, but thus far have failed.


ii) The term "African-Americans" doesn't work anymore in referencing black descendants of slaves.

Maybe the rest of the country doesn't get it yet, but it's quite apparent in Minneapolis, where first and second generation Somali (and other East African country) immigrants are thriving and outnumber black descendants of slaves here, who suffer from similar problems of poverty and crime as elsewhere in the country.

And they don't look alike at all, except for skin color. And I think (though I don't know) that (local) black descendants of slaves culture largely rejects recent African immigrants as "not apart of us".

I don't know where in Africa most American slaves came from, if it was West, Central or where, but it definitely wasn't East Africa.

Obviously the term "black descendants of slaves" is way too cumbersome and will never work. But I don't know what else to call them. Just "black" doesn't work and just "African American" doesn't work, because recent East African immigrants are both of those.

You've never been out of the North have you? And you are dead wrong. The Native Americans lived in conditions more deplorable than the vast majority of blacks in the South. And that's not even close. This is the type of crap that Northern bigots spew all of the time. As long as your economic class prevents your having to socialize, go to school with, or live with most minorities then the problem is dealt with by criticizing another region of the country, usually the South, so you can feel as though you are above the kinds of discrimination more overtly attributed and seen elsewhere. Only you are not.

The glass ceiling in the North, and the unmentioned, whispered on the side discrimination is what you practice up there. Those I've know who have experienced in both places say they prefer the upfront racism of the South to the real, but silent and denied kind they find in the North.

I've visited or lived in 47 of the 48 contiguous, 3 provinces in Canada, and have made other travels outside of the U.S.. I spent two decades of my life working non-profit with the impoverished and I can tell you it is everywhere, but nowhere has it come out in the open and been as honestly acknowledged as it is in the South. At least that is the necessary first step in addressing the pervasive issue. Your response is exactly what I expected. We don't have any inner city area down here that compares to Chicago's South side. I guess that didn't happen to the same set of circumstances? You talk about slavery. Undocumented workers are the new version and they are nationwide. Prostitution is another form. So get real. Our problems with race, class, and the quasi enslavement of the marginalized is legion and it is right there in your Twin Cities as surely as it is in Atlanta. Serve in a soup kitchen this holiday season and then tell me otherwise.

I'm not denying your life experience. You should write a book.

In both this post and last post, you keep trying to change the argument. You seem to want to argue that racism exists everywhere in some form, and thus the South's racism is justified.


I'm arguing that the racism the South has against black descendants of slaves is several orders of magnitude higher than racism of any type anywhere else towards any race/ethnicity.


You may perceive this and that about "discrimination" in the north based on your experiences, but I don't think there's anything to back that up.


And I don't advocate that the Twin Cities is devoid of poverty or minorities. Again, that's not relevant to the argument I'm trying to make.

You seem to openly acknowledge the South's problems with black descendants of slaves. Ok, then. That's really all I was pointing out. Why the big stink?

Visit the reservations and then you tell me. There was no denial at all about racism in the South. The issue is that its repercussions are felt everywhere, and it is destructive in whatever form it comes, and no matter who the object of it is. There is no first, second, and third place finishers for those who suffer its abuse. My point is that it is everywhere, destructive everywhere, and won't improve as long as one region says to another, "our racism isn't as bad as yours". That statement prima facia is denial of one's own involvement in it. If you mitigate your own involvement you impair your ability to confront the issue in a positive way. So simply put you can't change that for which you refuse to admit responsibility.

I'm not the one changing the argument. I'm certainly not attempting to say the South is less guilty. But I was definitely saying that it exists everywhere I've been and is equally destructive to those who are the object of it. But, you were the one saying "ours is not as bad as yours" and possessing that attitude is my point. You see your transgressions as a speck while you see ours as a log. In reality it is equally destructive in whatever form it takes as it destroys not a whole race, but one individual at a time.