(11-17-2015 11:39 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 11:02 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 10:46 AM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  It has been very noticeable thus far. The only issue I have is the ridiculous stoppages of play with foul calls.

The few games I've seen so far- I thought the fouls that were called were fouls.

Not in some of the game I watched. It's too disruptive. I guess I'm the in "let the kids play" camp.

I believe in letting the kids play. That's why you don't allow them to use football rules while playing basketball. Call fouls! And change the way defense is played. It really WAS played differently in the 70s and early 80s. You didn't have all the bumping and hacking. I think allowing the armbar is ridiculous. Why do you need to use your arm in their back?

I think opinions will be based on the style of play you enjoy watching. If you enjoy lots of scoring, 3 point shots and dunks I think these are welcome changes.

If you’re a fan of grind it out defense and rebounding and more of a set style of offense you may think the changes are moving the game closer to the NBA model.

Personally I enjoyed the hard fought physical defensive battle where every possession mattered and the score was in the mid 60’s. To me that’s what separated the college game from the NBA, and I’m not a fan of the NBA.

IMO where the changes have the potential to hurt the game is with the new rules I don’t think you will see as many mid-major upsets over ranked teams. The more free flowing transition game favors the team with the better athletes.

That’s just my two cents and I’ll admit I’m a dinosaur, however Coach Norman Dale would never have approved of these changes.

It seems like we've seen a ton of upsets so far this year.

(11-17-2015 12:18 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  IMO where the changes have the potential to hurt the game is with the new rules I don’t think you will see as many mid-major upsets over ranked teams.

Underdog teams that have an up-tempo or creative style of play, or just play their best possible game, will always have a chance at an upset, even if the "overdog" has significantly more talent. In 1985, Villanova beat G'town in the NCAA tournament final by shooting 74% -- no team can shoot that % if the refs let the teams play thugball. In the 1997 tournament, Arizona beat a ridiculously-talented Kansas team ("the best team that didn't win a title") with relentless speed -- again, something you can only do if the refs actually enforce the rules of basketball.

(11-17-2015 12:18 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  Personally I enjoyed the hard fought physical defensive battle where every possession mattered and the score was in the mid 60’s. To me that’s what separated the college game from the NBA, and I’m not a fan of the NBA.

Same.

I've lost interest in the tournament, though. Pro ball's better. Too many timeouts and stoppages in the tournament. There's no such thing as momentum anymore. No fair way for good teams to exploit others because commercial breaks are so often, you give too many chances to ice and relieve teams. "Might" make for better television, but that isn't basketball. Definitely isn't fair.

As for the new rules, I'm really fine with it. It could counterbalance the CBS nonsense where teams can punish you with speed. Five minutes is still five minutes, but taking away ten or so seconds per possession, it will show. It frees the game up to return to something more authentic. Defenses will adjust. Not everyone can play with speed and precision.

2 things...
1- they've taken away a timeout.
2- they made it where if a timeout is called within 30 seconds of a tv timeout, the timeout becomes the tv timeout.

(11-17-2015 12:51 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(11-17-2015 12:18 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  IMO where the changes have the potential to hurt the game is with the new rules I don’t think you will see as many mid-major upsets over ranked teams.

Underdog teams that have an up-tempo or creative style of play, or just play their best possible game, will always have a chance at an upset, even if the "overdog" has significantly more talent. In 1985, Villanova beat G'town in the NCAA tournament final by shooting 74% -- no team can shoot that % if the refs let the teams play thugball. In the 1997 tournament, Arizona beat a ridiculously-talented Kansas team ("the best team that didn't win a title") with relentless speed -- again, something you can only do if the refs actually enforce the rules of basketball.

Gee, thanks Wedge...you just had to bring that one up....

What will be telling is how they call things later in the year...until they show the resolve to keep thing under control, coaches who favor very physical play will just hope to wait out the refs, hoping that outcry over "too many calls" will cause them to put their whistles away.

(11-16-2015 10:08 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think even more amazing is what Cincy has done. 203 points scored in 2 games.

It's going to be interesting to watch and see if this continues.

Also another thing to watch will be the womens games. they're doing quarters this year. I think long term, that's where we're going.

Rule change relative to shot clock is good. Made Cronin focus more on getting all his guys to be able to score. Our depth at all positions is solid. We can sub in 5 guys at one time.

(11-16-2015 04:32 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 04:23 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I prefer no shot clock and low scoring games, but the majority has spoken.

Watch games from the NBA in 1954...you might change your mind

Watch high school basketball in most states.

(11-16-2015 10:48 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Boeheim wants 24 secs...that would be almost unfair for teams to figure out his zone in 24 secs. LOL

He won't be coaching for much longer, so that won't be much of an issue.

(11-17-2015 12:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  I believe in letting the kids play. That's why you don't allow them to use football rules while playing basketball. Call fouls! And change the way defense is played. It really WAS played differently in the 70s and early 80s. You didn't have all the bumping and hacking. I think allowing the armbar is ridiculous. Why do you need to use your arm in their back?

The armbar is about self-defense. Unless you can show me something explicit in the rules (I haven't looked into it tbh), then the defender has the right to hold their ground against someone backing in. They don't have the right to shove back but can at least hold firm.

(11-16-2015 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Effeciency is up though by almost 2 points. Flies in the face of what the shot clock opponents said- that it would kill efficiency. NOT.

For the college basketball dummy (like me):

What is "efficiency" and how can it by higher than 100%?

(11-18-2015 10:01 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Effeciency is up though by almost 2 points. Flies in the face of what the shot clock opponents said- that it would kill efficiency. NOT.

For the college basketball dummy (like me):

What is "efficiency" and how can it by higher than 100%?

From Ken Pom:
This is the number of points scored or allowed per 100 possessions.

(11-18-2015 10:05 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 10:01 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Effeciency is up though by almost 2 points. Flies in the face of what the shot clock opponents said- that it would kill efficiency. NOT.

For the college basketball dummy (like me):

What is "efficiency" and how can it by higher than 100%?

From Ken Pom:
This is the number of points scored or allowed per 100 possessions.

Gotcha.

Were the stats from last year for all of last year? Because the early games are more likely to be blowouts.

And even if it was just last year to date, it really depends on the schedules. It may just so happened that last year the scheduling resulted in slightly better match ups between mid-major/low-major and high major teams in the early part of the season.

(11-18-2015 10:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 10:05 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 10:01 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Effeciency is up though by almost 2 points. Flies in the face of what the shot clock opponents said- that it would kill efficiency. NOT.

For the college basketball dummy (like me):

What is "efficiency" and how can it by higher than 100%?

From Ken Pom:
This is the number of points scored or allowed per 100 possessions.

Gotcha.

Were the stats from last year for all of last year? Because the early games are more likely to be blowouts.

And even if it was just last year to date, it really depends on the schedules. It may just so happened that last year the scheduling resulted in slightly better match ups between mid-major/low-major and high major teams in the early part of the season.

the stats were season to date....

It feels like the schedule this year is better than last year. Also now with last night in the books, you have both years champions classic games...

This year champions classic
74-63 67
79-73 74

last year
72-40 61
81-71 65

this year avg poss. was 70.5. Last year was 63. That's a huge difference.

think one big thing that no one has talked too much about. The # of 3 point shots getting taken gone way up. The record is 34.4%. For first 3 days this year 36.3%.

What does this mean? IMO, it's going to mean a LOT more upsets. Live by the 3, die by the 3.

(11-18-2015 10:47 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 10:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 10:05 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 10:01 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Effeciency is up though by almost 2 points. Flies in the face of what the shot clock opponents said- that it would kill efficiency. NOT.

For the college basketball dummy (like me):

What is "efficiency" and how can it by higher than 100%?

From Ken Pom:
This is the number of points scored or allowed per 100 possessions.

Gotcha.

Were the stats from last year for all of last year? Because the early games are more likely to be blowouts.

And even if it was just last year to date, it really depends on the schedules. It may just so happened that last year the scheduling resulted in slightly better match ups between mid-major/low-major and high major teams in the early part of the season.

the stats were season to date....

It feels like the schedule this year is better than last year. Also now with last night in the books, you have both years champions classic games...

This year champions classic
74-63 67
79-73 74

last year
72-40 61
81-71 65

this year avg poss. was 70.5. Last year was 63. That's a huge difference.

That's because of one game. Maybe Kansas and Mich St decided to run the floor more during the game.

If there was a stat that was plotted over the length of the game that was something like "possessions in a rolling 3 minute period", that might help explain if there was a general lift in the curve (possessions increasing everywhere) or if the overall game average increase could be explained away by large spikes in the stat.

(11-17-2015 11:46 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The armbar is about self-defense. Unless you can show me something explicit in the rules (I haven't looked into it tbh), then the defender has the right to hold their ground against someone backing in. They don't have the right to shove back but can at least hold firm.

I'm going to assume that you're talking about a forearm shove, and not about the martial arts armbar move. Hopefully we all agree that yanking a player's arm to the verge of cutting off circulation or dislocating the elbow should always be a foul in basketball.

Anyway, the forearm shove is usually used, and should be called as a foul, when it's a shove at the opponent or an attempt to slow him down ("to impede his progress"), like a hand check or a jersey grab.

(11-18-2015 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(11-17-2015 11:46 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The armbar is about self-defense. Unless you can show me something explicit in the rules (I haven't looked into it tbh), then the defender has the right to hold their ground against someone backing in. They don't have the right to shove back but can at least hold firm.

I'm going to assume that you're talking about a forearm shove, and not about the martial arts armbar move. Hopefully we all agree that yanking a player's arm to the verge of cutting off circulation or dislocating the elbow should always be a foul in basketball.

Anyway, the forearm shove is usually used, and should be called as a foul, when it's a shove at the opponent or an attempt to slow him down ("to impede his progress"), like a hand check or a jersey grab.

I'm obviously not a basketball guy, but are you essentially saying that the only correct way to "hold your ground" is to just stand there?

That's physically impossible.


And that's fine, so long as we're saying that the guy with the ball should be allowed to simply ram his butt into a guy who's standing there to move him out of the way.

(11-18-2015 06:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(11-18-2015 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(11-17-2015 11:46 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The armbar is about self-defense. Unless you can show me something explicit in the rules (I haven't looked into it tbh), then the defender has the right to hold their ground against someone backing in. They don't have the right to shove back but can at least hold firm.

I'm going to assume that you're talking about a forearm shove, and not about the martial arts armbar move. Hopefully we all agree that yanking a player's arm to the verge of cutting off circulation or dislocating the elbow should always be a foul in basketball.

Anyway, the forearm shove is usually used, and should be called as a foul, when it's a shove at the opponent or an attempt to slow him down ("to impede his progress"), like a hand check or a jersey grab.

I'm obviously not a basketball guy, but are you essentially saying that the only correct way to "hold your ground" is to just stand there?

That's physically impossible.


And that's fine, so long as we're saying that the guy with the ball should be allowed to simply ram his butt into a guy who's standing there to move him out of the way.

I doubt the refs are going to start calling more fouls when players off the ball are fighting for position in the post.

But most forearm (and elbow) fouls are committed away from the post by players pushing at their opponent, usually at the player with the ball, basically just a hand check with the forearm or elbow.

Here's a set of example photos (from an Iowa fan site, collected to make a point about an aggressive Ohio State defender): http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2013/...basketball

(11-17-2015 11:46 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 04:32 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(11-16-2015 04:23 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I prefer no shot clock and low scoring games, but the majority has spoken.

Watch games from the NBA in 1954...you might change your mind

Watch high school basketball in most states.

(11-16-2015 10:48 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Boeheim wants 24 secs...that would be almost unfair for teams to figure out his zone in 24 secs. LOL

He won't be coaching for much longer, so that won't be much of an issue.

(11-17-2015 12:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  I believe in letting the kids play. That's why you don't allow them to use football rules while playing basketball. Call fouls! And change the way defense is played. It really WAS played differently in the 70s and early 80s. You didn't have all the bumping and hacking. I think allowing the armbar is ridiculous. Why do you need to use your arm in their back?

The armbar is about self-defense. Unless you can show me something explicit in the rules (I haven't looked into it tbh), then the defender has the right to hold their ground against someone backing in. They don't have the right to shove back but can at least hold firm.

How is it self defense to stick your arm in somebody's back?

You hold your ground using your legs, not your arms.

(11-18-2015 02:26 PM)stever20 Wrote:  think one big thing that no one has talked too much about. The # of 3 point shots getting taken gone way up. The record is 34.4%. For first 3 days this year 36.3%.

What does this mean? IMO, it's going to mean a LOT more upsets. Live by the 3, die by the 3.

They've finally started emphasizing it and its gotten too easy for them. They should go to the international 3 point line. Pro is too far out for them, but international would be just fine.