(11-10-2015 02:21 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  "I'd rather have a Christian president as opposed to an atheist." - Bigot

"I'd rather have an atheist president as opposed to a Christian." - Not a bigot

I think I've heard this line of reasoning somewhere before......hmmmmmmmmm

Well, you certainly didn't hear it on this thread.

(11-10-2015 02:09 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 01:02 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 12:27 PM)Max Power Wrote:  It's because many can't comprehend how someone could operate without a moral compass absent some carrot/stick dynamic and fear of fire and brimstone. They also think people can't be trusted to create their own moral compass. The problem though with just following something written in stone is you can't evolve with the times, because you're stuck in the bronze age when homosexuality was universally punished by stoning.

Probably because every single person I personally know that is an avowed atheist has indeed lacked a moral compass and was completely untrustworthy.

With all due respect, unless your sample size is less than two, I don't believe that for a second. I have never met one who didn't have a strong moral compass, and that covers well over a hundred. That being said, I don't believe there is any correlation between god-belief and moral behavior.

While I don't have a problem trusting a god-believer to be president, I would surely trust an atheist before I would a religious zealot.

The sample size is far greater than two and I don't care if you believe it or not as I know it to be a fact.

(11-10-2015 02:07 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 01:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 01:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 01:02 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 12:27 PM)Max Power Wrote:  It's because many can't comprehend how someone could operate without a moral compass absent some carrot/stick dynamic and fear of fire and brimstone. They also think people can't be trusted to create their own moral compass. The problem though with just following something written in stone is you can't evolve with the times, because you're stuck in the bronze age when homosexuality was universally punished by stoning.

Probably because every single person I personally know that is an avowed atheist has indeed lacked a moral compass and was completely untrustworthy.

What morals were they lacking?

They are liars, drug users, womanizers, thieves, and lazy.

That can also describes a lot of Christians, Jews and Muslims too.

IMHO, most of you probably know a lot more atheists and agnostics (I'll lump them both together) than you realize. Don't be surprised if between 10 - 20% of the people you are rubbing elbows with at your church are actually atheists, but they keep it a secret because of how they would be treated if they ever came out into the open.

again, please stop confusing things....

the main theme I never understood was why persecution is part of the belief pattern any higher power.....well, that's a lie....yeah I do know...so do the buddhists and a shiteload of others....

it's not an enigma that china is kicking our fk'n arse right now.....

fk'n dummys....romans....I think that was a book in the bibble....it would benefit people to study those fellers too....just not in the bibble...

this cuntry used to be about the caboose that could.....all the sudden, the entire pc world thinks they are the engineer and the caboose can only fire back with brimstone......


maybe I"m just being man-o-pausal.....

(11-10-2015 02:21 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  "I'd rather have a Christian president as opposed to an atheist." - Bigot

"I'd rather have an atheist president as opposed to a Christian." - Not a bigot

I think I've heard this line of reasoning somewhere before......hmmmmmmmmm

DING DING DING..sounds like another abortion issue....

(11-10-2015 02:21 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  "I'd rather have a Christian president as opposed to an atheist." - Bigot

"I'd rather have an atheist president as opposed to a Christian." - Not a bigot

I think I've heard this line of reasoning somewhere before......hmmmmmmmmm

I'd rather have someone who believes that their religious preference is their own and no the rest of the country's. What does that make me?

I fully understand that for many people, their religious views help to inform their outlook on the world, but I don't think that a single individual's religious preferences should be the basis for our governance. Checks and balances make this less of an issue domestically (the President can't actually do much about abortion), but when it comes to foreign policy, the idea of someone using their religion to inform those decisions, especially military conflicts, is somewhat terrifying.

I hope Cruz doesn't try to force religion on the populace. IMO, it's wrong for a president to try to force either religion (or the belief that religion is wrong) on the American people.

Why does a president have to be on his knees to pray? Can't you meditate while standing or sitting?

(11-10-2015 08:28 PM)Hitch Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 02:21 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  "I'd rather have a Christian president as opposed to an atheist." - Bigot

"I'd rather have an atheist president as opposed to a Christian." - Not a bigot

I think I've heard this line of reasoning somewhere before......hmmmmmmmmm

I'd rather have someone who believes that their religious preference is their own and no the rest of the country's. What does that make me?

I fully understand that for many people, their religious views help to inform their outlook on the world, but I don't think that a single individual's religious preferences should be the basis for our governance. Checks and balances make this less of an issue domestically (the President can't actually do much about abortion), but when it comes to foreign policy, the idea of someone using their religion to inform those decisions, especially military conflicts, is somewhat terrifying.

See, this is essentially what I believe.

I don't want dogma being applied. I want a leader who is informed by the moral part of their religious belief though. I want a person that embodies the christian ideals of charity, humbleness, restraint, moderation, and honest fair work. And, it's a Christian ideal because there is a certain mixture of those I feel is ideal.

(11-10-2015 10:50 AM)Max Power Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:38 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:36 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:34 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:33 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I'd be in the group that says I would not trust an atheist to be President.

That's unconstitutional.

The Constitution is no limit on my personal preferences.

I forgot the sarcasm tag.

I didn't say it was unconstitutional. I said it was against the spirit of the religious test clause. While you may not advocate for a formal religious test, doing so informally is against the spirit and gives us the same result.

An atheist president who believes we have one life to live is less likely to start a nuclear war, less likely to pollute our planet and dump carbon into the atmosphere, less likely to have an intense focus on the Middle East and Israel for the wrong reasons, less likely to have his or her morality constrained by a document written thousands of years ago when homophobia was a way of life.

I'm not sure I agree with the bold part. Why not be the one person who has the biggest impact on all humanity ever? Why not go for the never-ending fame by blowing up China or something? Why care about the next generation? After your death nothing exists.

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:42 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:33 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I'd be in the group that says I would not trust an atheist to be President.

the sad part is one won't run anytime soon....they know better than to enter that cf....

another thing to consider, is that religion plays zero function when decisions are made within a mixed culture....

most don't realize how much better things would be if religion was never an issue selecting someone to run a business...

but it's 'murica.....I'm immune....

Individuals make decisions and religion plays a role in how people think, act, and carry themselves.

You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:42 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:33 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I'd be in the group that says I would not trust an atheist to be President.

the sad part is one won't run anytime soon....they know better than to enter that cf....

another thing to consider, is that religion plays zero function when decisions are made within a mixed culture....

most don't realize how much better things would be if religion was never an issue selecting someone to run a business...

but it's 'murica.....I'm immune....

Individuals make decisions and religion plays a role in how people think, act, and carry themselves.

You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:42 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  the sad part is one won't run anytime soon....they know better than to enter that cf....

another thing to consider, is that religion plays zero function when decisions are made within a mixed culture....

most don't realize how much better things would be if religion was never an issue selecting someone to run a business...

but it's 'murica.....I'm immune....

Individuals make decisions and religion plays a role in how people think, act, and carry themselves.

You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Individuals make decisions and religion plays a role in how people think, act, and carry themselves.

You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

Make it +2

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Individuals make decisions and religion plays a role in how people think, act, and carry themselves.

You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

His comments are Deist in nature. Closest he came to mentioning the God of the bible is obliquely made via use of "Christian Soldiers", which is a cultural reference and not in the evangelical sense. Washington, Jefferson, Madison among others were Deists. It's well documented.

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Individuals make decisions and religion plays a role in how people think, act, and carry themselves.

You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

Great post!

To add to your counterpoint to believe miko's implied message one also has to ignore works of Thomas Jefferson like The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth and The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. Having read both I honestly believe Jefferson was what we now call a Non-Denominational Christian.

Wonder how many prayer rugs Obama has gone through in the last 7 years

Doh

(11-10-2015 10:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

His comments are Deist in nature. Closest he came to mentioning the God of the bible is obliquely made via use of "Christian Soldiers", which is a cultural reference and not in the evangelical sense. Washington, Jefferson, Madison among others were Deists. It's well documented.

Deists in deference to a Christian God.

I forget where that quote came from. I'll have to find that for you.

That said, like my comment on the forgoing page, it's about the ideal not the dogma and folks like Jefferson are on that personal watercraft with me.

(11-10-2015 10:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

Great post!

To add to your counterpoint to believe miko's implied message one also has to ignore works of Thomas Jefferson like The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth and The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. Having read both I honestly believe Jefferson was what we now call a Non-Denominational Christian.

You can't be serious.

(11-10-2015 10:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

His comments are Deist in nature. Closest he came to mentioning the God of the bible is obliquely made via use of "Christian Soldiers", which is a cultural reference and not in the evangelical sense. Washington, Jefferson, Madison among others were Deists. It's well documented.

https://www.monticello.org/site/research...us-beliefs

Quote:1803 April 21. (Jefferson to Benjamin Rush). "To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other."

Quote:1816 January 9. (Jefferson to Charles Thomson). "I too have made a wee little book, from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus. it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. a more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel, and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what it’s Author never said nor saw. they have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognise one feature. if I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side, and I wish I could subjoin a translation of Gassendi’s Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics, and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy of the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagancies of his rival sects."13

Seems to me that the man's own words contradict your supposed documentation.

(11-10-2015 11:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

His comments are Deist in nature. Closest he came to mentioning the God of the bible is obliquely made via use of "Christian Soldiers", which is a cultural reference and not in the evangelical sense. Washington, Jefferson, Madison among others were Deists. It's well documented.

Deists in deference to a Christian God.

I forget where that quote came from. I'll have to find that for you.

That said, like my comment on the forgoing page, it's about the ideal not the dogma and folks like Jefferson are on that personal watercraft with me.

Only because the people believed in Christianity. Deists believed a power created the world and now sits back as a non-interventionist. That means He did not send Jesus to save man from sin. That's what a deist means.

(11-10-2015 10:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:40 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:17 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 10:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  You would have loathed Washington and Jefferson as presidents then...

There are plenty of quotes by Washington that noted his belief in God and how God/Providence saved him during the American Revolution. Heck, I have books back home on the subject.

The belief that many/most Founders were irreligious is incorrect.

I didn't even see that comment was directed towards me.

Thanks

+1 to what Harmon said.

Thanks!

It drives me crazy when I see that narrative pushed. I had a 20 minute argument with a fraternity brother on the subject.

Actually, I have a book at college with me. Here are a few quotes by our first and greatest president:

"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this (the course of the war) that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

“It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to."

Great post!

To add to your counterpoint to believe miko's implied message one also has to ignore works of Thomas Jefferson like The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth and The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. Having read both I honestly believe Jefferson was what we now call a Non-Denominational Christian.

there goes that "believe" thingy again....

y'all have fun with it....

if you don't think the wording of past documentation was thought out strictly as a better method of control, oh wellzy....

I am finished attempting to argue it any more.....it's a waste of my time....